Is The Christian Trinity Real?

Hi daymore,

In response to your Feb. 28, 2008 reply:
I am posting a reply to you in a regular column. I hope you don’t mind.

You write to my question of the trinity: “About trinity I can’t explain it to you. I can’t explain how telepathy works either. But I know it works. I live with many other mystries in life. Do you have answers to all questions about life that you live with, like how the food that you eat becomes blood and marrow? If you decide to eat only after you could explain fully how metabolism works, I bet you’ll never be able to eat.”

I don’t need explanation for digestion; that has been explained very adequately by doctors. Nor for telepathy, as I swear my wife can read my mind. The Trinity has not been.

You are basically saying to me that the Trinity is a mystery and could not be explained to me. I don’t care for the mumbo-jumbo I have been given as an answer to this question by you and others… I mean that in a nice way…perhaps I might explain it to you. 🙂

Matt. 26:39, “Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face and prayed, ‘My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father’s will.)

John 8:17, 18, “[Jesus answered the Jewish Pharisees:] In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me.”

So, Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from the Father.

Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.”

John 14:28, “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

Matthew 27:54, But the army officer and those with him watching over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”

The fact is, the word “trinity” does not even once occur in the Holy Bible. Nor are such expressions as “one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,” or “one substance with the Father,” found in the Bible. To the contrary, the Bible speaks of Christ as “the beginning of the creation by God,” and says, “The head of the Christ is God.” (Rev. 3:14; 1 Cor. 11:3) Thus, the New Catholic Encyclopedia says of the Trinity: “It is not, as already seen, directly and immediately the word of God.”-Volume 14, page 304.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia also states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”-(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”-(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The Encyclopedia Americana says: “Christianity derived from Judaism, and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road that led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”-(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

My interpretation of all of the above is that there is no “Trinity,” it is all made up; and men, specifically Early Catholic hierarchy, were the makeupees. This was done in the 4th. century AD, is not mentioned in either testament…I doubt it’s true.

Now perhaps you could try again. There are too many discrepancies going on in that Bible, or at least people seem to keep making them up.

Also, where in the Bible does it mention “rapture?” But, that’s for another time.

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Creation, Evolution, Texas State School Board

You gotta hand it to those Texans…they just won’t let religion and schools alone. A Doctor of Urology is running for a position on the school board in District 11 of the Texas State school board (Southwest of Ft. Worth) and he is outspending the opposition by about 12:1

Doctor Barney Maddox, the candidate, has been quoted as saying: “the theory of evolution is a “myth” and a “fairy tale.”

This fits right in with mainline Texas thought. I spent time in Texas a while back and I still vividly remember meeting workmates and people in the community. Their top 5 questions always included…”and what church do you go to?” They had to know this to place you on the social scale, to know if they would continue socializing with you. I could just visualize them getting home and taking out their little score-cards to grade newly introduced people.

It probably won’t be very long before creationism is somehow slipped past the US constitution and taught in their science classes at schools. Well, they’ll get what they deserve. If creation theory gets well established in the state it will head downhill scholastically pretty quickly, as the religious faction behind this is very conservative and anti-science. Once they feel that they are in control and the mainstream in their community…”I pity the fool.” You’d better try to fit in if you live there–and are atheist or non-church going.

To give you an idea of what was going on, I remember leaving the state when my job was done, (3 years) and literally breathing a sigh of relief when crossing over the border into another state. It was like overcast skies suddenly cleared to bright blue. Never been back, don’t ever plan too. Oh yeah, and they still have ‘dry’ counties…no drinking.

Texas is a lot responsible for the negative feelings I have for the conservative, evangelical, fundamentalist movement in the US. If they would ever get in full control of a society like ours, I would have to become a freedom fighter. You can’t reason with them, you just have to leave or fight…well maybe not literal fighting…but really strong political and intellectual counteroffensives.

I have my fingers crossed for them….but, I’m not optimistic.

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Does Prayer Really Work?

I see the world and all of the beautiful, wondrous things in it as proof of a creation, but my interpretation of a creation is not the same as a fundamentalist’s view of creation.

Yes, the universe and all in it would seem to have come from somewhere or something. But religion cannot have it both ways; to say the universe had to have a creator and a God does not, is like having your cake and eating it too, it makes no logical sense. I cannot seem to wrap my mind around a spirit being that is supposed to have always existed, and is everywhere, and in all humans brains at the same time.

As humans, we see our world and surroundings manipulated and things being created every-day. The world and universe because of their great age and the physical proofs left behind in rocks, dirt, air, water, misc. artifacts, planets, and the universe itself, seem to have been around forever. To think or contemplate that a spirit, that looks like us, did all that 6,000 or so years ago seems, for one thing, very egotistical, for another-impossible or imaginary. 🙂

Maybe it all could be put to rest, not only for me, but many other people, if a new more accurate, scientifically descriptive model could be made of God. Something that would make sense to a world that is a least 6,000 years removed from supposed Godly creation.

He spoke to the Hebrews, how about giving a modern world that has much better linguistic and comprehension skills something to work with here. What would it hurt to materialize above earth and speak to the Pope or Billy Graham, or Pat Robertson? 🙂

A lot of people have too much distrust and lack of interest because of a barely consciously perceived thought that this is OLD stuff; God has not spoke for 4,000 years, maybe the Hebrews and Paul made him up, maybe he didn’t really exist. The descriptors we have don’t resonate with modern woman/man. We are long out of the spirit-shaman stage in most of the world.

I’m sure the pastors, priests, and rabbi’s at times struggle not only with there own thoughts, but their congregations as well.

Do some people pray in earnestness? Yes, of course they do, well lets have some perceivable, tangible proof that there is someone listening. Many honest God-fearing people (and even me) have prayed down through the centuries for the end of pain and suffering, the end to child abuse, the end of evil men hurting people, the end of hunger, the end of war, the end of everything bad…Never happened….Not even once.

Why?

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One Persons Take on Creation

The following is a reply to a correspondence entered into with someone who answered one of my posts.

Hi Ms. Stegall,
I understand that correspondence is harder than setting in front of a person and talking about difficult subjects. One cannot see the other persons facial movements, hear tone of voice and such, so I just want to say upfront that if I somehow sound mean or badgering, or something I write sounds disrespectful to you, please know that it would be entirely accidental, and if you let me know what it was, I will honestly apologize.

You Write;>>”I will list my primary reason as my sole reason and that is, for the sake of circular reasoning – I am in love with my Creator because of the proof in His very Creation.”<<

What do you consider proofs of his creation? Your existence, the universe, our world, all of the above, or none of the above?

What would your Proof be? i.e., any physical proofs, or are they just feelings, or senses?

You write:>> “Let me explain: Did you ever notice that even creation sings the song of redemption?”<<

With respect and good intention, I will ask: what does that mean; it’s not meaningful at all to me. 🙂

You write:>> “There is death of the day into night and the resurrection of the morning? There is the death of the flowers into the ground in the fall and resurrection in the spring? Even so, the seasons, there is the death of what is recognized as “life” in the winter, and just as the flower, it resurrects into life again in the spring.”<<

I must confess, that perhaps because of my upbringing, I think of day into night and the changing of the seasons in a purely physical-earth goes around sun, earth rotates, way. I know that ancient peoples thought they had to pray to the gods to bring back plants, sun, and so on. Once I had been taught about what was happening physically, I never thought about it any other way. But, I do consider the changing seasons a truly beautiful thing to behold.

You write:>>” I am in love for I am loved. I not only get to read freely of this redemption but I also get to see it over and over again, every day, every season, every year.”<<

That is a beautiful thought, and I will leave it totally alone.

You write:>> “I sincerely hope this solitary reasoning does not stand isolated but is recognized to have worth within the promises found in the Bible. I fear, however, using Scripture upon which to draw my argument, I would create further unrest. So, I will comfortably place my justification of my love for my Creator in creation itself.”<<

The first sentence is unclear to me: do you mean that you hope your answers are consistent with Biblical doctrine? Again, with respect: I read other blog’s about religion and see sentences that are similar to the above and my brain goes blank.
I am very comfortable with Scripture, and hold them in respect, although I don’t believe most of it. If a Scripture is able to convey your thoughts easier–please feel free to use them with me.

Your patience with me is appreciated no end, and I value the thoughts that you write about to me. I look forward to any further answers.

Many thanks for your time.

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Is God Even Real?

Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything … just give him time to rationalize it. — Robert A Heinlein

Does your religion adapt to new discovery or does it deny the existence of new facts? There are a few that adapt, and although I kinda think this is good, it still bothers me in many ways. I mean, to me religion, because God supposedly creates it, or us, or whatever, should have everything right from the beginning. There should be no questions, or even a perceived need to question anything, because everything meshes perfectly and makes sense from the beginning and explains all, from the start of time, to a thousand years or ten thousand or a billion years into the future.

If a true God created this universe, this galaxy, solar system, Earth, and man/woman, animals, etc., there should be no questions about it at all. Inquiring minds (no sly comments please;) that many people have, should immediately see the answers. There should not be scientists, or just plain folks who have an inquiring intelligence seeing inconsistencies in our existence. There should be no need for the constant bickering and back at you thing that has been going on for the last three or four hundred years now.

Our physical, universe, and such are more and more found to be describable in a testable physical manner. The science doesn’t go away–because it works–and explains in a manner that cannot be denied by reasoning, functioning, intellect. Religion cannot be explained adequately without magic. A phenomenon that has yet to be observed.

People who claim to be scientists and believe in a spirit that lives in the sky, who goes around creating matter and forming stuff, and wanting people to forever fall to their knees to worship her/him and follow this code of conduct that very few, if any people could, with any success, well I think there is something going on that may be a genetic thing. There is something in their DNA or brain connections that predisposes them to think that way. Look at the evidence they bring forth. How long does it take to disprove it by provable fact? If a God did this the truth would be staring you in the face. But it’s not, and never has been, and the assumptions of facts in the Bible are not valid anymore. But, then of course they never were.

The evidence keeps building up, and some otherwise intelligent people keep denying its truth. The real truth should be so in your face that its undeniable….by anyone.

A real, loving God, would not subject untold billions of people to the misery that this world has dished out before modern times…and still does to third world countries. There is no apologetics in existence that can make this right-No God works this way; unless he is a Dark God.

Can you imagine yourself being born into Darfur, or any of a dozen or more countries in Africa, and sitting in the desert as a child, starving to death? Now imagine tens of thousands or millions of your brother and sisters starving right along with you. A God, who sits back, sees this and does nothing, is not a competent God.

Does any of the melodrama that Christian religion attempts to impose on the whole world make logical sense?

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Thoughts on Creationist Theology

If you dig deep enough in Creationist or Young Earth Creation (YEC) theology, there are very large discrepancies and large leaps of “faith” :-} are required for acceptance. I have recently been looking into their world-view, and I find it both fascinating and mind-boggling. They are quietly wedging their way into secular institutes and using razzle-dazzle and quasi-scientific language to fool lots of people. They keep trying to intrude into science classes in public schools and generally making nuisances of themselves.

Below are just some random things. I haven’t tied them together much; just some notes I am keeping and trying to absorb and eventually string together in a sensible manner.

Early Bronze Age (c. 3500-2000 BC)
Middle Bronze Age (c. 2000-1600 BC)
Late Bronze Age (c. 1600-1100 BC)

Early Iron Age (c. 1200-900 BC)

The Noachian Flood that happened somewhere around 2400 to 2300 BCE, demonstrated no affect on the line of metal workers descended from Cain. Lamech, sixth in line from Cain, fathered Jubal and Jabal by his first wife Adah. Jubal was the originator of string and wind music. Jabal was described as the father of “Bronze and Iron” metalworking–although there was No Iron working in his day. They must have been living in Anatolia at the time; as that is where the first evidence of metalworking comes from. Lamech fathered Tubal-Cain by his second wife Zillah. Tubal-Cain is the man held responsible for making/living in tents, and animal husbandry. Lamech, by the way, was the Bible’s first Polygamist.

Side bar: Were Adam and Eve living in caves after their eviction from Eden? I’ve heard rumors of the “Cave of Treasures.”

The complete line of the progeny of Cain was wiped-out in the flood, no survivors.

Now after the flood, Noah and his wife, and his three sons and their wife’s dispersed to the four corners of the world and begat humankind all over again. So what we have at, let’s say 2300 BCE, are 8 people traveling to China, Europe, Asia, Africa, Egypt-(yeah, I know :-}), Australia, South America, Central America, and North America.

None of these people that were doing the dispersing and begating were schooled in the metal working skills (Which is a VERY highly skilled activity), however Noah knew how to make wine, so maybe he went to France.

If you happen to be a Young Earth Creationist (This would include most evangelical sects, Institute for Creation Research (ICR), the “answersingenesis” people, Discovery Institute, etc., you have to work in an ice age sometime after the Flood and before Abram (Abraham) c. 2020 BCE. Personally I don’t think it can be done, and neither does anyone else in the real world, and there is NO physical evidence for such a thing. Beware though; these groups just mentioned above are telling The “BIG LIE.” They are taking a page from Hitler that goes like this: If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.

I’m wondering how the YEC’s are taking the research that is showing ALL of humanity comes out of Africa; will they just ignore it?

I know there are some who pick and choose what they will believe. Some are thinking that the first six days of creation were “ages” or “eons” and after Adam was created, 24-hour days.

Huummm…

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10,000 BC

10,000 BC

I just saw the plot synopsis for the movie 10,000 BC…Oh well, I’ll probably go see it anyway. I tend to like the Big Budget Special Effects flicks. I know the thing will not win any Oscars for script or actor or director, but I like them anyway. Kind of like the olden days of the Hollywood musical, they bore no resemblance to reality, but had big followings in the depression era as an escape vehicle for lots of poor people.

Of course the subject matter, prehistoric man/women, is near to my heart, but I don’t hold out any hopes that the movie will even remotely follow what scientists nowadays believe to be true of the era. For some reason I have a strong attraction to prehistoric times and the chance to immerse oneself in a dreamworld of the times, even if not authentic in all ways, is a captivating thought.

Several things I will keep in mind as I watch: This was the Mesolithic era. World population at that time was maybe 3 million or so. Small cities/large encampments were just starting to pop up. The shores of the Black Sea were about three hundred feet lower than now, and were populated. The Bronze age or iron age had not started. Stone and possibly bone/antler were used for tool making. In warm climate, nudity was probably prevalent. Pottery had been developed in Japan a thousand years earlier, but had not yet spread to the Middle East or Western Asia. Some of what we consider now as farm animals were being domesticated. Five thousand, or more years earlier…the great cave paintings in France were produced. I think that throughout time men/women have had a “creative gene” and have been superb artists. Of course the tools were hard to come by at the time.

Mammoths were still around, but their numbers were dwindling rapidly. Humans had produced a wicked stone spearhead thousands of years before, and were using it very proficiently on large game such as Aurochs, mammoths, bison, etc. Most humans were probably hunter/gatherers, but some small populations in Egypt, the Levant, Asia, and India were probably experimenting with Emmer or Einkorn wheat. The Indus Valley, Egyptian, and the Mesopotamian civilizations and the use of metals were still in the future, but humankind was starting to advance at a more rapid rate than the aeon’s that led to these times

It will be interesting to watch the movie while keeping in mind real world happenings and the Hollywood version.

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