Sunday Sermon for Non-Believers
March 15, 2008 27 Comments
Sunday sermon
Man was essentially spread over the whole earth by 10,000BC. The evidence is totally overwhelming and incontrovertible. The only way fundamentalists, evangelicals, creationists, and intelligent design proponents get around this fact is by denial. The “proofs” they forward to support their beliefs are not real, and they fall apart when people who are schooled in the subject review the “proofs” If they were to accept real science the made-up world view they have collapses and they know it.
All the mumbo-jumbo that the world theologists try to smother us in, is just that, mumbo-jumbo. It’s witchcraft, or Voodoo of the highest order; it’s looking at entrails to divine the future…and the past.
The world history that is real is laid out by science…and involves time spans that are hard to grasp, and a beginning of life that involves no gods. We and our world are the stuff of stars. Look out at the universe sometime, use a telescope; you’ll see nothing but stars and gas. The chemistry of life is the stuff all around us, and we keep trying to find the recipe.
There is no serious scientist on earth who believes the earth and humanity, and by extension the whole Universe, has only been around only some 6,000 years. Our world is Ooold. In the real world this is known with a certainty that gets stronger every year. The evidence does not go up and down, it goes up only. It is known with a certainty that transcends any religious thought or exegesis.
The well-known religious thinkers and writers down through time were furthering the cause for their own careers. They were writing and espousing feelings and superstitions that were simply nonexistent. There never was any tangible “gods” All they had was writing, not evidence that could be examined. All they were doing was duping the population for their own furtherance…that’s all most ministers, priests, and rabbis are doing now…they are supporting superstition or magic and involving you.
It has been true down through time that religion has to fight harder and harder to get educated people to believe. Not just the Christian God, but all others. Christianity keeps reinvented itself, trying to keep it’s relevance in a world that surpassed it several centuries ago. Religion tries it’s best to keep woman/man in their clutches. Read your history, religion kills to keep you on the straight and narrow path…not now…but not long ago. (actually after some thought I have to say it is still killing today…think Muslim. They worship the same god…they say.)
Religion would have you believe that a theocratic form of government is needed to save our society, our country. It’s been tried before and didn’t work very well. Just think about the consequences of such a thing. Would you want the religious police stalking around looking into your life? How many out there are truly righteous and “sin” free at all points in their life? If you think praying to Jesus after every sin works, then you are truly helpless. Do you want to look over your shoulder to see if anyone is watching before you stare at that beautiful young woman passing by you? Do you want someone else deciding what you can read, or filtering what news you can see? Do you really want Pontiffs or deacons deciding what your child learns in school?
If I try to envision a country world ruled by religion, I think about Muslims, third world deterioration, a world that is gray and truly with out soul. Where men kill women over “honor”. Where children are taught not to use their inventiveness and imagination. Where you are careful about what you say, you cannot express a curiosity about the world because it is already explained in terms that you are not allowed to question. I think I would commit suicide.
About the word of me
The Word of Me... 
Where was your proof?
Hi Justin Thank you for your response.
Do you mean where is? It’s all around us. It’s available to anyone who has access to books, or the internet, and the will to actually study. Study the Bible…as I do…and study science at the same time. Amazing what you can learn.
More empty statements and no evidence. Your words have no substance.
Hi Justin,
The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will. -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10
Any college (minus some evangelical ones) will have textbooks on Archaeology, geology, paleontology, biology, astronomy, genetics, physics, linguistics, glaciology, zoology, and some I’ve not thought of I’m sure.
Did you have something specific in mind? A particular direction you would like to go in? I’ll start: The Noachian Flood never happened. Your turn.
Prove that the flood story of Noah did not happen.
thewordofme, do you consider yourself to be a good person?
Hi Justin, thanks for your reply.
No geological or archaeological evidence at all for a worldwide flood. I didn’t prove it…science did.
There was however, a large local flood in the Mesopotamian area around 2900BC.
Noah’s flood is supposed to have occurred about 2400-2300 BC.
Then there was the Black Sea Deluge about 5700BC…probably too early for the myth of Noah, but it would have created a large pool of flood stories to pass on to future generations. It may have contributed to story of Gilgamesh, which was written 400-500 years before the stories of Moses, and was written long after the event it was retelling.
The amount of rain required to cover the earth to a few feet over Mt. Everest (Which Earth Scientist knows to have existed at Noah’s time) in such a short time would have been so great that nothing, not even Noah’s Ark would have survived.
Another thought: The earth is a closed system, the amount of matter that is on the earth now is pretty much the same as there was ten thousand or a million years ago. Of course there would be matter accretion from meteorites and comets, but once here it would not go away.
The proof of this is in the science available to all who would study it. It’s available to those who study the earth with intelligence and an open mind.
People were starting to doubt the story of Noah’s Flood as early as the 1700’s because of the evidence the were finding out in the world, away from the church. These early doubters were Christian men all, as was Darwin, who came later. Their eyes and intellect were just telling them a different story than the Bible.
The Bible story of Noah is long suspected as being allegory. The academicians who have studied the Bible writings over a two thousand year span have said this…Not I.
The science out there is holdable, seeable, testable, and repeatable. It is not made up by an evil clan seeking to destroy religion. I am just a human being who is really hard to convince, I am not the devil, testing you, or anyone else.
Justin, I know I am a good person, as I suspect you are. Thanks for asking:-)
Ok, you consider yourself to be a good person. I’d love to have a conversation with you on this, but I’ll speed it up by referring to this website. Could you take the good test for me at http://www.livingwaters.com/good and tell me what you think?
Hi Justin,
I flunked…I have to go back to the womb 🙂 Lots of stuff people do when they’re young. Been near 40 years for the lightest offense.
So, you are hellfire and brimstone Baptist
It is hellfire preaching for someone to tell you that you will end up in Hell without saying why. It is Christianity to say we all deserve Hell, but Christ can rescue you.
There is no hell–it’s all made up. There are no angels or demons–no satan in classical sense.
Christians say we all deserve to burn forever–what kind of madness is that–is that a loving god?
I think of all the Christian sects; the Baptist may be the meanest, most demeaning to the human race…Well, except for the Holy Rollers. 🙂
Have been to Baptist church in my younger years. Did not enjoy it at all…never felt, even at a young age when I knew nothing, that they were talking about a God I wanted to know.
thewordofme (by the way, do you have a first name I could use?),
When we look around at creation, we know there is a Creator. God is good and just, so it makes sense that he would have a place of punishment.
Hi Justin, Yes, sorry, my name is Bill. I’m sorry I totally missed this reply earlier.
I don’t think it necessarily follows that there is a place of punishment.
If God wants to punish humans…first of all why would he, and second, I think it’s beneath a god to do torture…that sounds very much like Islam, not Christianity. Just leave in the grave.
Torture is what bad people do. No jokes about Bush…I know he condones torture.:)
Bill, you do not understand the concept of God’s Holyness. God is love, but he is also perfect. It is this perfection that demands justice. Did you know that in America, thousands upon thousands of murderers never get caught? Should God bring these people to justice? Of course he should, but he is so perfectly Holy that he will also punish liars, theives, adulterers, and blasphemers (like me).
If a man was to slap a prostitute, he might not be brought to justice by the police because of who the crime was commited against. The punishment parellels the person the offense was against. When we sin, it is primarily against God. He is Holy and inffinite, so the punishment will also be infinite in His jail. Does that mean everyone will get the same punishment? Not really, just the same jail.
Bill, Hell is locked from the inside out. As I said, we cannot focus solely on one of God’s attributes. He is not just Holy, but also loving. Goddemonstrated his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Repent, turning away from your sin and trusting in Jesus alone to save you and you will not have God ignore evil crimes of sin (just leave it in the grave), but he will place his wrath on his Son on the cross and give the perfect righteousness of Christ to you. You will then have eternal life and Heaven thrown in. I do not know you, but I do care about you. Consider your salvation today.
Hi Justin, good to “talk” to you again.
Yes, you are right, in that I do not follow the logic of what you call the concept of God’s Holiness. I mean, I get that God is holy, but I don’t get that is necessarily follows that this perfection of His means that He has to torture sinners with hellfire and unbelievable pain to the end of time.
I think man has more than a little bit..tortured, what God is supposed to think or want to do with us humans. I really believe the Bible is mans interpretation of events and not real “Word of God” The revengeful concept of God is just wrong.
That terrible torture He is reported to want for us is not consistent with a “Loving God” Yes, murderers, maybe…no, probably not adulterers. Not thieves, liars, or blasphemers..These are petty crimes. You are using revenge justice to say that lying, and such petty misdemeanors call for death. This is backwoods justice that most ancient societies used…not really suited to a Loving God.
Don’t you think God would be a petty tyrant to punish(with death), someone for simply being born in the wrong place, or telling a white lie in a social situation?
Justin, your last paragraph is eerily similar to a hundred other Christian evangelist I have heard. It is senseless to me, you are reciting by rote what is to me a meaningless sentence.
“but he will place his wrath on his Son on the cross and give the perfect righteousness of Christ to you. You will then have eternal life and Heaven thrown in.” No disrespect meant.
Of course all I know of you is the writing, but as I’ve said, I’m sure you are a good person, and I enjoy the talking.
I considered “salvation” many years ago and decided it doesn’t apply to me. Thanks for the thought.
I am not a good person by God’s standard of his commandments. We have all sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. We were made in his image, and every time we sin we proclaim to all of creation that our actions is what God is like. If we walk into Hell by choice, as you said in your last sentence that you are doing, then we do it despite all the warnings God has given us. Please take the offer to be saved.
Hi Justin,
Just what does it mean to “fall short of God’s glory?”
Especially the glory part. Thats another one of those empty sentences that evangelicals spout. 🙂
So we look like God? Isn’t that kinda conceited for us to say we look like God? Or vice-versa.
You write: “we proclaim to all of creation that our actions is what God is like.” That statement makes no logical sense
If one of us humans were to murder someone, then that would make God seem like a murderer to all of his creation? Actually He is a murderer…see flood story.
God created it all; so what does He care if we reflect on him? The only ones around to see are the angels; again His creation. There is no panel of judges around to critique Him.
Bill, many times we set standards for ourselves or others such as employees or team members. With God, however, he is the standard. He says be Holy as He is Holy. He is the standard – and we fall short. We lie, steal, lust, ect and deserve the death penalty. We are all on death row. As for God ending people’s lives, when you show me a person that never broke God’s laws and died (besides Jesus), then that argument would make sense. If you bought a microwave and rather than cooking for you it hit you and murdered your family, you would get rid of it. We are God’s creation and look at our world. He is patient, however. Please receive salvation before time is up.
Hi Justin. Hope you have a nice holiday. I’m running late today.
You write:
“It is hellfire preaching for someone to tell you that you will end up in Hell without saying why. It is Christianity to say we all deserve Hell, but Christ can rescue you.”
And: “Please receive salvation before time is up.”
Implication: “You must believe that God exists. After all, if you do not accept the existence of God, then you will face the horrors of hell.”
My answer:
An appeal to fear (also called argumentum ad metum or argumentum in terrorem) is a logical fallacy in which a person attempts to create support for his or her idea (religion) by increasing fear and prejudice toward a competitor.(non-believers) The appeal to fear is extremely common in *marketing and politics. (*and religion)
Fear appeals are often used in *marketing and social policy, as a method of persuasion. (*and religion)
”
Noam Chomsky, among others, has suggested that the appeal to fear plays a role in social oppression on a large scale. According to this belief, *political institutions and the mass media use the appeal to fear to foster conformity and maintain the status quo.(*and religion) from Wikipedia-
“(*and religion”) added.
As far as hellfire preaching, I wasn’t saying I don’t mention the threat of Hell. I was just pointing out the difference. There is a difference in saying “you are under arrest and will be in prison for a long time” and saying “we have a warrant for your arrest for the illegal drugs growing in your backyard. You will be in prison for a long time.” I am not leaving out Hell, but Hellfire preaching makes Hell the primary motivation whereas in Christianity, you must come according to the Bible with a contrite Heart thankful for the Savior. I wasn’t pretending Hell wasn’t in the picture of Christianity’s message – just clarifying what that place is.
As far as the “terrorism” argument, that is old. An atheist can never seem to “find” God like a thief can never seem to “find” an officer. You may think it is bad that God sends people to his jail, but that is because you are guilty – not because he is a terrorist.
Hi Justin, Great to hear from you.
I’m not quite a confirmed atheist at this point. I am having a very hard time believing somethings that I know are not true, yet most religions still cling to them.
No one has ever been able to explain Neanderthals in the light of creation. I think the writers of the Bible were blindsided by this, as they [Neanderthals] all died off 25 to 30 thousand years before the time of Moses and the writers that followed. Neanderthals are obviously in the human line, but no one can explain them (adequately)in religion.
The flood never happened. I think I’ve talked to you of this before.
Tower of Babel never happened. 110 or 115 years after the supposed flood, would put it at approximately 2270 BC. Humans were spread all over the earth at this time and they all had languages.
We know for a fact that North America was populated by 12,000 to 13,000 BC. There is new evidence starting to show up that that time may go back much further. Archaeologists are beginning to find Solutrean spear points in the Chesapeake Bay area, up North from you. Solutrean spear points were originated in what is now France about 40,000 BC
The US census bureau actually has on their website an estimated world population in 10,000 BC of 5 million people.
If anyone in the fields of science can come up with evidence ( which they have) that some of the Biblical record is wrong or mythical, then it is quite reasonable to question other parts of it.
The mystery is why people would choose to ignore facts. Is it because it doesn’t jibe with their religion? Of course…religion today is faced with the same dilemma the Catholics faced in the Dark Ages…the science is disproving long held superstitions, and they react by ignoring or denying the facts. Well, the Catholics reacted by burning people alive. They made a hell right here on earth.
Religion today needs to redefine itself. Most of the world long ago grew out of the childish belief in spirits, angels, demons, and such nonsense.
There is no war going on between God and the devil about who can get the most people to worship them. Why would that even matter to a real God? Besides we already know the outcome of the drama.
The war on earth is about good and evil *people*. The evil people try to rape and plunder (and mostly get away with it) while the good people just try to live life minus the drama. There is no God or devil directing this…it’s just human nature, it is the human condition.
Trying to get people to think that there is some great war going on in some heaven (while we already know the outcome) and taking advantage of those poor souls is just evil. Our war, that Bush instigated in Iraq, is just another example of evil people of religion raping and plundering the innocent.
You tell me to repent before it’s to late and I go to hell. I urge you to take some real science classes and get a grasp on what is going on in the real world. That ‘old time religion’ is misleading you.:-)
I don’t get your reference to terrorists.
Thanks Justin,
Bill
Bill, The Neanderthals have been dealt with. Just go to http://www.answersingenesis.org and search it.
In fact, most of your questions can be answered there. Let me know how your search goes.
Hi again Justin,
I just found your reply about the Neanderthals in my spam mail.
I go to the answersingenesis site at least every other day.
I go there to see what “facts” they are spreading to mislead humanity.
Their answer to the problem is that they (Neanderthals) were offspring of either Noah or his sons. They roamed the earth for a few years and were killed off by the “Great Post Flood Ice Age”
BIG PROBLEMS there.
1. Neanderthals were gone LONG (30,000 BC) before the Biblical flood.
2. Their DNA does not match humans.
3. There was NO ‘after the flood’ ice age. Last ice age in world was 12,000 to 10,000 BC
Also, you might be interested to know that Neanderthal bones were found in caves in Mt. Carmel. Well under the ancient (35,000 to 50,000 year old) bones of some Homo Sapiens.
The people at ‘answers’ are ones to watch out for. They have a seemingly scientific answer to many Biblical problems. Their answers, when given to mainline (those people without a Phd. in Divinity, or bogus university paper), scientists are quickly disproved. I’m not saying this as a put down, but as a fellow blogger.
They are not giving real science answers. It is stuff that they massage into their own vision. I personally believe that they know what they are giving out…is bad info.
Your problems are based off of presuppositions. You presuppose things that disqualifies my answer. The things you presuppose to be true and see how it is used to make my answer not work. If you then remove your (I believe false) presuppositions, my answer is possible.
Hi Justin, welcome back.
What problem are we talking about here?
Part of what’s happening here is you are disbelieving the evidence that is building up. I’m not making the stuff up. It’s been in the scientific literature for decades mostly.
I happen to believe in many things that fundamentalist, evangelicals, and Baptists…just flat deny.
Your denial because it conflicts with your religious views does not mean that what I am saying is false.
Holding religious views that conflict with the real world is…iffy. But, I would not want to change you.
All I can hope to do is maybe arouse some curiosity
.
Bill, the world used to believe the world was flat. The truth is there is “evidence” for any side depending on your presuppositions. Your presupposition (one example is that you cannot use the supernatural to explain anything) limits you and if your presupposition is wrong then you could not possibly find out the truth. However, you could build up an entire building of evidence on it and make it look correct to many,
Hi Justin,
I cannot believe in the supernatural (another word for magic) because it has never been reliably demonstrate to be true. Other than old stories that cannot be verified, it has not happened.
Not believing in magic does not limit me in any way.
Probably the most important invention or cultural innovation ever made has to be the computer combined with the internet. The proliferation of information, and access to it, is lifting the world out of the dark ages of intellect.
I can sit here at my kitchen table and enter libraries all over the world. Through certain websites I can read original research papers of scientists everywhere. The language of science is English, so generally language barriers don’t exist. My only restriction is my own brainpower. 🙂
What this boils down to is the ability of every one of us to quickly search out facts and information on just about anything you can think of. You are only limited by your imagination and your download speed. 🙂
Real science sites are all over the internet, and the sciences themselves are exploding because there are so many resources, and manpower being devoted to them.
The last ten years or fifteen years alone…our knowledge of the earth and it’s past has probably doubled.
Now this is creating problems for religion. A lot of the old stories we know are not true. The scientific evidence keeps getting stronger…not weaker.
I am tied tightly into this web of information and I cannot disregard the things I know to be true, and the things I know to be myth.
Prove to me that magic is real and I will believe.
Thank you for your time in ‘talking’ with me. I always appreciate it.
Bill, Christianity is the religion of knowledge and discovery so I am glad you agree with the basic laws of the universe. In fact, under another system, you cannot adequately explain natural phenomenon.
For example, Christianity (unlike some other religions) teach that we are actually here and the things around us are real. It also teaches that there are unchanging laws so that we can measure and make predictions.
Want proof that God exists? Go through http://www.proofthatgodexists.org and tell me what you think.