Sunday Sermon Continued

Sunday Sermon Continued

This is a continuation of debate that started here: HERE

Hi Idugan, Welcome back.

Hey, if I could have done half as good as you are when I was in high school…that would have been a miracle.

Why would man make up a God who is so just, etc? Why would man set up laws for himself that he knew he could not always keep? The idea that man made God up doesn’t make sense. Man naturally HATES God. So why would he make Him up?”

I’m sorry…you consider the Christian God just? How about His unconscionable treatment of Job? Heres an apparently honorable man of God, and God just lets the Devil experiment on him. His family is killed off he looses his land, cattle, he is stricken with boils. All to settle a little wager between God and the Devil. Job isn’t notified of the wager, so he has no idea what is going on. Can you imagine the terror in his soul? Is that a just God?

Men have been making up gods from the beginning of time…thats what we do best. I doubt if there has ever been a society on this earth in all of history who hasn’t had a ‘God’ myth. I don’t think your statement about men naturally hating God is true at all, else why would we humans keep making them up? I don’t hate God, all the people I know do not hate God. I can’t remember ever meeting someone who hated God. Now…not believing…thats another matter.

    I’m no theologian of any kind. I have only truly been studying Scripture for about a year. I mean I’m only a senior in high school. So I won’t even pretend to have all the answers. I will only tell you what I believe, and I want to fully understand what you do and why. I just thought I should tell you that so you don’t feel like I’m attacking you because that is not my intention.”

Hey, who does have all the answers? Attack away. Just keep it on a civil level…no name calling or personal attacks. I respect you, and expect the same.

    What Moses did was not a ‘minor infraction’. He deliberately went against what his God told him to do. The same God who led them out of Egypt. His annoyance with the people should not have gotten to be so big that he would willingly defile God. That is why he was punished. (And that was not the only sin that Moses ever committed.) The reason why these ‘myths’ as you like to call them do not make sense to you is because you are making up excuses. I’m not saying that I understand all of Scripture and every single thing about every story–because I don’t–but i do have faith in God that what is Word says is what happened and that God had a perfectly just reason for doing anything He has ever done.”

If you knew the Jews perhaps you would understand the point about Moses a little better. If you were leading a couple of million kvetching Jews through the hot barren desert, you would truly understand the temperament of Moses. The Jews are not an easygoing people, they complain A LOT. Reread the story of his time in the desert and pay particular attention to the interaction between Moses and the ‘people’ I am not making up excuses about anything…I see valid points of debate. Unlike most students of Christianity, I study with an open mind…I don’t have a preconceived viewpoint and a need to conform to what I know people around me think of the matter.

    “I looked at that site that had the supposed contradictions in the Bible. I would just like to say that I read a lot of them and looked them up and I can try to show you that they are not contradictions–but I don’t think you would believe me so I’m not going to unless you ask me specifically to.”

Whatever you think. I have been looking at a number of them myself and I will continue, but most of them remain valid points of contention. I already have someone where I am, that is kind enough to spend time in discussion about them.

    “Mans purpose is to glorify God by using the attributes of Himself (love, morals, etc) that He gave us. “Sin”=when I don’t fulfill the purpose/will of God. For example the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20. You say the only ’sin’ you commit is when you ‘occasionally have a bad thought about someone’ or lusted after someone other than your wife. And you know what I have committed sins..lots of them. Let me ask you something though, have you ever told a lie? or lost control of your anger? I have, and that’s why I am so grateful for my salvation.”

Pretty egotistical on Gods part if His purpose in making us was to have us constantly ‘glorify’ Him. Do you really think God needs this constant worshiping and adulation and glorifying? Is this OUR purpose in life? Don’t you think a grown up God would understand that we can love Him without all this drippy glorifying and constant wondering if we are sinning ALL the time?

    “you said: “My point in this paragraph, is that people will believe almost anything. And they would rather follow than lead, or buck the establishment. Early Christians and Muslims tapped into that, and our present day leaders, both secular and religious, do the same.”

    Don’t you think that you are also a ‘follower’ in your thoughts? I mean you’re not the first one to question the authenticity of the Bible and God.”

I am a follower, as I believe we all are. But in matters of the intellect, I follow where my thoughts lead me. I am not scared that if I get off the beaten track I’ll be cast in hell. The only reason that me and others question the authenticity of any religion, is because they are all open to criticism. We see silliness, made up drama, made up stories, allegory, plain old deception and greed, and other thing that often make no sense as described by followers

    ““Didn’t Jesus say that his disciples would live to see him return, and he would establish a new Jewish ‘ Kingdom of God’ on earth?” and “Even Jesus was wrong in his prediction.”

    If you can show me where Jesus said that then fine. But I could not find it in Scripture. When the disciples asked when he would restore the kingdom Jesus replied that it was not for them to know the time or season (see Acts 1 :6-11 for the Ascension).”

Mathew 24:30-34 He was expecting a Jewish Kingdom of God, because he was Jewish, He was a rabbi, and great believer in the Jewish faith. The Christian faith as we know it today did not really start to evolve until a couple hundred years after the death of Jesus. Well, Paul was preparing the stage.

“The Kingdom of God is referred to frequently in the Tanakh (see 1 Chronicles 1 Chronicles 29:10-12 and Daniel 4:3 for example). It is tied to Jewish understanding that God will intervene to restore the nation of Israel, and return to rule over them. The Kingdom of God was expressly promised to the patriarch and prophet, King David, because he was a man “after God’s own heart” (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22); and God made the Davidic Covenant with King David, promising him that he would “never lack a man to sit upon His throne, forever” (1 Kings 9:5). From Wikipedia” That prophecy never made it-Bill

    “Going back to the sin thing…When we sin we defile God’s creation. If we saw sin how God sees it we would shudder. (Zech 11:8; Ez. 20:43; 2 Cor 7:1). When we sin we rebel against God. A true ‘rebellion’ is when people try to assasinate those in charge and that’s why man did in Genesis 3:5–man wanted to be rid of God and to be like Him. When we sin we show ingratitude. God gives us everything (Life, love, friends, etc) and yet we sin. We rebel against God and yet we expect Him to keep blessing us. [These are some notes I took on a sermon about sin. It was the third in the series and it applies to people who believe it but I thought I would share it anyway.]”

Again with the sin thing. How old are you? Just live your life..and treat other people as you would like to be treated. Stay away from drugs, and when you’re old enough, treat alcohol with respect. If you find a woman you love, love her with all your heart, never cheat on her, and treat her with total respect. Follow these concepts and you really won’t have much to worry about. You keep worrying about sin so much and it will distort your brain…maybe make it explode. 🙂

Have a great life. I envy you your youth and promise.

Add to Technorati Favorites

A New Sunday Sermon…Kind of

A new Sunday Sermon…Kind of

Hi Idugan,

To first readers…this is a reply to a reply that is under the heading: Did Jesus Exist? Here

Wow, where to begin. First, let me thank you for taking so much time to correspond with me. Thank You.

I am using the Bible and references to God, Jesus, Scriptures, etc., because we are ‘talking’ about them, and you are familiar with the myths

To clarify part of this; I do not believe that the Bible and the depictions of God, et al., are anything more than mans interpretations, campfire myths, etc., of his beginnings. I think they had a kind of relevance in the early times of mans intellectual childhood. There were no words at first to describe his thoughts or feelings. There was no explanations of what he saw. With no concept of science and being unsophisticated in thought and preoccupied with not starving to death, he made up stories to describe what lay before him. Civilizations across the face of the earth all did the same; a lot of them were made up before the bible stories were written down, and some of them were written down before Moses, and others, wrote the Pentateuch.

For a God to be sorry for his creation speaks volumes about the image of this spirit creature. He made a ‘broken species’, feels sorry because they do not live up to ‘expectations’, and then murders millions of them, in an especially painful way, and then feels remorse. He did it to wipe out the sinfulness of His prior creation, and let a new, sinless mankind take over the earth. How well did that work out, I ask you? Do you not think a real God would realize the futility of this measure? Does this story (which has no support in science and actual geological history of the earth) not sound like a child’s tale? This was/is a 4,000-4500 year old morality tale.

God did not let Moses into the promised land for a minor infraction; after he had spent a lifetime following God and doing His will. God allowed Jesus to be descended from a murderer and adulterer. And although He has said that the son does inherits the sins of the father, He also said that the son does not inherit the sins of the father, I don’t know what to believe. Do you not see the craziness of this, the inconsistencies of these stories? As a race, we humans have grown up; the old fairy tales do not relate anymore-they might if they made more sense…were not so unbelievable and childish.

We are holding on to old concepts and beliefs well past their ‘sell by date’. You want to worship a God? Do so. Just don’t make the worship/initiation such a silly thing. How about: God, you made me, I acknowledge that, forgive me for my weaknesses and sins, I’ll try to do better. No need to go through the morality plays over and over and over again, they stick in the mind pretty quickly. And Christians need to stop proselytizing. Its very irritating for those of another faith. Everyone in the world has heard the story by now. Your eagerness and boldness in pointing out the ‘mistakes’ of other belief systems and cultures is just annoying and wrong.

Christians spend so much time and energy arguing about the nature of God and Jesus and invent such wild imagery of the proper way to worship and tithe, etc., that they end up killing each other about differences that really don’t exist in the real world.

Define ‘sin’ for me if you would Idugan.

The only thing I do to ‘sin’, is occasionally have a bad thought about someone. I have sometimes committed adultery in my mind, like Jimmy Carter, so I’m in good company. But, the older I get the less I find it happening.;-) I love my family and friends and try to be charitable to all I see and meet.

I don’t believe in the religions as they are now promoted. The theology is just plain crazy in my humble estimation. So consequently, I do not ‘worship’ that great spirit in the sky-and I don’t think He needs the stuff that Christianity pushes on helpless humans.

I think that evangelical, fundamentalists, are just plain brainwashed. They cannot seem to break out of a mold that was laid down hundreds of years ago, and worse, they don’t think they need to. “Gimme that ol’ time religion.” 🙂

To read and actually listen to the words of the Bible, God is VERY inconsistent. You might go: Here and see for yourself. They quote from real Bibles, so you will be reading actual real Scriptures. Easily checkable at Bible Gateway.

Paul established his ‘bonafides’ to his (Jesus’) followers by saying Jesus spoke to him in a beam of light. Then he proceeded to steer the flock away from an apocalyptic leaning. Didn’t Jesus say that his disciples would live to see him return, and he would establish a new Jewish ‘ Kingdom of God’ on earth?

People are lying to you when they tell you that Scriptures have not been altered. I don’t trust Paul..or Eusebius…..or Constantine for that matter.

You know what I consider interesting? That Islam, which was established around 250-300 years after Christianity, now has over 1,200,000,000 followers and is permanently ensconced over the whole world. And growing at a faster clip than Christianity. The Muslims have much higher fertility rates…in some cases twice as much…more little Muslims running around than little Christians. Oh yea…Mohammad loved little girls (and I do mean loved). My point in this paragraph, is that people will believe almost anything. And they would rather follow than lead, or buck the establishment. Early Christians and Muslims tapped into that, and our present day leaders, both secular and religious, do the same. Don’t rock the boat, and don’t ask too many questions

A lot of scholars think that John of Patmos was writing about Rome. He was clearly delusional. Ministers have been predicting the ‘End of the World’, based on bogus interpretations of Revelations for 2,000 years now. Even Jesus was wrong in his prediction. I don’t think the Apostles died for what they knew to be a lie, they died for a misguided belief. People have martyred themselves for less.

Regarding this line: “until you truly believe the Word of God and trust in Jesus for your salvation you cannot know ‘truth’.”

I would believe, if I truly knew what the real ‘truthful word’ was..or is. 🙂

Add to Technorati Favorites