Sunday Sermon Continued

Sunday Sermon Continued

This is a continuation of debate that started here: HERE

Hi Idugan, Welcome back.

Hey, if I could have done half as good as you are when I was in high school…that would have been a miracle.

Why would man make up a God who is so just, etc? Why would man set up laws for himself that he knew he could not always keep? The idea that man made God up doesn’t make sense. Man naturally HATES God. So why would he make Him up?”

I’m sorry…you consider the Christian God just? How about His unconscionable treatment of Job? Heres an apparently honorable man of God, and God just lets the Devil experiment on him. His family is killed off he looses his land, cattle, he is stricken with boils. All to settle a little wager between God and the Devil. Job isn’t notified of the wager, so he has no idea what is going on. Can you imagine the terror in his soul? Is that a just God?

Men have been making up gods from the beginning of time…thats what we do best. I doubt if there has ever been a society on this earth in all of history who hasn’t had a ‘God’ myth. I don’t think your statement about men naturally hating God is true at all, else why would we humans keep making them up? I don’t hate God, all the people I know do not hate God. I can’t remember ever meeting someone who hated God. Now…not believing…thats another matter.

    I’m no theologian of any kind. I have only truly been studying Scripture for about a year. I mean I’m only a senior in high school. So I won’t even pretend to have all the answers. I will only tell you what I believe, and I want to fully understand what you do and why. I just thought I should tell you that so you don’t feel like I’m attacking you because that is not my intention.”

Hey, who does have all the answers? Attack away. Just keep it on a civil level…no name calling or personal attacks. I respect you, and expect the same.

    What Moses did was not a ‘minor infraction’. He deliberately went against what his God told him to do. The same God who led them out of Egypt. His annoyance with the people should not have gotten to be so big that he would willingly defile God. That is why he was punished. (And that was not the only sin that Moses ever committed.) The reason why these ‘myths’ as you like to call them do not make sense to you is because you are making up excuses. I’m not saying that I understand all of Scripture and every single thing about every story–because I don’t–but i do have faith in God that what is Word says is what happened and that God had a perfectly just reason for doing anything He has ever done.”

If you knew the Jews perhaps you would understand the point about Moses a little better. If you were leading a couple of million kvetching Jews through the hot barren desert, you would truly understand the temperament of Moses. The Jews are not an easygoing people, they complain A LOT. Reread the story of his time in the desert and pay particular attention to the interaction between Moses and the ‘people’ I am not making up excuses about anything…I see valid points of debate. Unlike most students of Christianity, I study with an open mind…I don’t have a preconceived viewpoint and a need to conform to what I know people around me think of the matter.

    “I looked at that site that had the supposed contradictions in the Bible. I would just like to say that I read a lot of them and looked them up and I can try to show you that they are not contradictions–but I don’t think you would believe me so I’m not going to unless you ask me specifically to.”

Whatever you think. I have been looking at a number of them myself and I will continue, but most of them remain valid points of contention. I already have someone where I am, that is kind enough to spend time in discussion about them.

    “Mans purpose is to glorify God by using the attributes of Himself (love, morals, etc) that He gave us. “Sin”=when I don’t fulfill the purpose/will of God. For example the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20. You say the only ’sin’ you commit is when you ‘occasionally have a bad thought about someone’ or lusted after someone other than your wife. And you know what I have committed sins..lots of them. Let me ask you something though, have you ever told a lie? or lost control of your anger? I have, and that’s why I am so grateful for my salvation.”

Pretty egotistical on Gods part if His purpose in making us was to have us constantly ‘glorify’ Him. Do you really think God needs this constant worshiping and adulation and glorifying? Is this OUR purpose in life? Don’t you think a grown up God would understand that we can love Him without all this drippy glorifying and constant wondering if we are sinning ALL the time?

    “you said: “My point in this paragraph, is that people will believe almost anything. And they would rather follow than lead, or buck the establishment. Early Christians and Muslims tapped into that, and our present day leaders, both secular and religious, do the same.”

    Don’t you think that you are also a ‘follower’ in your thoughts? I mean you’re not the first one to question the authenticity of the Bible and God.”

I am a follower, as I believe we all are. But in matters of the intellect, I follow where my thoughts lead me. I am not scared that if I get off the beaten track I’ll be cast in hell. The only reason that me and others question the authenticity of any religion, is because they are all open to criticism. We see silliness, made up drama, made up stories, allegory, plain old deception and greed, and other thing that often make no sense as described by followers

    ““Didn’t Jesus say that his disciples would live to see him return, and he would establish a new Jewish ‘ Kingdom of God’ on earth?” and “Even Jesus was wrong in his prediction.”

    If you can show me where Jesus said that then fine. But I could not find it in Scripture. When the disciples asked when he would restore the kingdom Jesus replied that it was not for them to know the time or season (see Acts 1 :6-11 for the Ascension).”

Mathew 24:30-34 He was expecting a Jewish Kingdom of God, because he was Jewish, He was a rabbi, and great believer in the Jewish faith. The Christian faith as we know it today did not really start to evolve until a couple hundred years after the death of Jesus. Well, Paul was preparing the stage.

“The Kingdom of God is referred to frequently in the Tanakh (see 1 Chronicles 1 Chronicles 29:10-12 and Daniel 4:3 for example). It is tied to Jewish understanding that God will intervene to restore the nation of Israel, and return to rule over them. The Kingdom of God was expressly promised to the patriarch and prophet, King David, because he was a man “after God’s own heart” (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22); and God made the Davidic Covenant with King David, promising him that he would “never lack a man to sit upon His throne, forever” (1 Kings 9:5). From Wikipedia” That prophecy never made it-Bill

    “Going back to the sin thing…When we sin we defile God’s creation. If we saw sin how God sees it we would shudder. (Zech 11:8; Ez. 20:43; 2 Cor 7:1). When we sin we rebel against God. A true ‘rebellion’ is when people try to assasinate those in charge and that’s why man did in Genesis 3:5–man wanted to be rid of God and to be like Him. When we sin we show ingratitude. God gives us everything (Life, love, friends, etc) and yet we sin. We rebel against God and yet we expect Him to keep blessing us. [These are some notes I took on a sermon about sin. It was the third in the series and it applies to people who believe it but I thought I would share it anyway.]”

Again with the sin thing. How old are you? Just live your life..and treat other people as you would like to be treated. Stay away from drugs, and when you’re old enough, treat alcohol with respect. If you find a woman you love, love her with all your heart, never cheat on her, and treat her with total respect. Follow these concepts and you really won’t have much to worry about. You keep worrying about sin so much and it will distort your brain…maybe make it explode. 🙂

Have a great life. I envy you your youth and promise.

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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

3 Responses to Sunday Sermon Continued

  1. ldugan says:

    The story of Job is to show us his faith. Job was a very wealthy man who had everything he could ever ask of. That’s what makes this story so important. Even after Satan touched everything Job had he still had faith in God. And yes his wife told him to curse God and his friends weren’t the greatest but he still had faith in God. and because of that he ended up with so much more than he started.

    Romans 1: 28-32, “And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, HATERS OF GOD, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. ” (For the whole context I would read vs. 18-32)

    You said: “If you knew the Jews perhaps you would understand the point about Moses a little better. If you were leading a couple of million kvetching Jews through the hot barren desert, you would truly understand the temperament of Moses. The Jews are not an easygoing people, they complain A LOT.”

    I understand what the Jews were like. I have heard sermons on this topic and read the story many times. And to tell you the truth I probably would’ve gotten angrier at the Jews and sooner than Moses did. But that still doesn’t make it right.

    “Unlike most students of Christianity, I study with an open mind…I don’t have a preconceived viewpoint and a need to conform to what I know people around me think of the matter.”

    But you do have presuppositions about everything you see and read and because of those presuppositions you see things a certain way. Everyone in the world has a worldview and presupps. And i do not conform to what others around me think. If I hear someone say something about Christianity I do not 100% believe them until I go home and study it myself.

    As for the Matthew passage I will have to study it.

    “Again with the sin thing. How old are you? Just live your life..”

    The only way to truly live and enjoy life is to know that you don’t have to worry about where you’re going after death and to live your life glorifying God.

  2. thewordofme says:

    Hi Idugan,

    I apologize for my stupid assumption that you were male. I just saw your picture on my reply panel.
    I am short on time right now, but I will be replying to your reply above, as soon as I can.
    With humble apologies,
    Bill

  3. thewordofme says:

    Hi Idugan, Nice to speak to you again.

    You write:
    “The story of Job is to show us his faith. Job was a very wealthy man who had everything he could ever ask of. That’s what makes this story so important. Even after Satan touched everything Job had he still had faith in God. And yes his wife told him to curse God and his friends weren’t the greatest but he still had faith in God. and because of that he ended up with so much more than he started.”

    Didn’t he have Daughters and sons; didn’t they end up dead because God gave the Devil permission to test Job? It doesn’t matter that he had more children later. God should not allow such a horrible thing. If you ever have children you will see the insanity of this.

    You write:
    Romans 1: 28-32, “And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, HATERS OF GOD, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. ” (For the whole context I would read vs. 18-32)

    I see fit to doubt the literal existence of God, but I do not do any of the things that are listed in these verses of Romans. Most intelligent people do not. Most people, I have found, are pretty decent.

    You write:
    ”I understand what the Jews were like. I have heard sermons on this topic and read the story many times. And to tell you the truth I probably would’ve gotten angrier at the Jews and sooner than Moses did. But that still doesn’t make it right.y of the thongs that these verses on Romans”

    I know a number Of Jews and they count among my best friends…I love them. We discuss Biblical stuff occasionally and we tend to agree that some or most of the Pentateuch is folklore. Other parts of the Bible are also suspect. There are a lot of theist scholars out there that also question some of the same stuff I do.

    You write:
    ”But you do have presuppositions about everything you see and read and because of those presuppositions you see things a certain way. Everyone in the world has a worldview and presupps. And i do not conform to what others around me think. If I hear someone say something about Christianity I do not 100% believe them until I go home and study it myself.”

    Yes, you are right about the “presupps” I have a pretty good BS detector and I tend to research a lot of stuff. It’s pretty interesting out there in the world. I only suggest you don’t fall into the trap of believing that you’ll go hell for curiosity. I know there are some factions that tell their members this—I actually know some.

    You write:
    ”The only way to truly live and enjoy life is to know that you don’t have to worry about where you’re going after death and to live your life glorifying God.”

    Go your own path…be curious…Watch out for peer pressure.

    Best Regards.

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