Trinity, Evil, Sin, Death
May 13, 2008 11 Comments
Hi Robaigh, Thank you for you’re input, and good to hear from you again.
For some reason I can’t get my reply panel to work properly, so you are also on main post window.
Robaigh, I am always confused 🙂
Really though, I just cannot seem to understand a lot of things in Christianity. And I find a lot of different interpretations of the same events. In my posts I am trying to draw out peoples viewpoints and their vision of the faith. I try not to sound too caustic, but I’m sure I am occasionally.
>>The Trinity (Father, Son & Spirit; perpetual “begotten-ness” of the Son; procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son)<<
I really don’t understand this trinity thing, and from all of my investigating it sure seems to be a made-up-by-man thing. More than a few have tried to clue me in, but have failed. It may be crystal clear to them, but to me it is mud. I think I have heard all the standard explanations.
>>Salvation history – Jesus incarnated among the Jews as fulfillment of God’s promise to redeem the world via the Chosen People<<
I understand that Jesus was of Jewish/Hebrew origin, but where did the promise come from and why do we need redeeming…are you talking of Paul’s Original Sin Hypothesis? Wasn’t Jesus preaching that the ‘Kingdom of God was coming soon and for people to be good Jews?
>>the “problem” of death<<
>>the “problem” of evil (and the origins thereof)<<
I don’t see a problem with death. We’re born, we live, and we die. Most of the more complicated pagan gods promised life after death…I don’t think it’s a realistic promise or a realistic expectation. What’s the point?
Since God created the whole shebang, so to speak, I would assume he is also responsible for evil. People have told me nothing exists in this world, except by God. If in fact He is all knowing He would surely know right away that his creation of Satan was wrong…in point of fact, an all knowing God would have realized it immediately. He should have corrected it then, not allowed the melodrama to start. And why would a God be concerned with little human problems? Which we wouldn’t have had if He had left us alone and kept Satan out of Eden. The story is very lacking in logic.
From what I can see, it was the old Jewish men of the period around 1000 to 400 BCE who decided what was evil or sinful. We all have human traits, and yes, something’s are bad and we need to control them. But, I don’t think many of them are necessarily sins.
I also don’t think that humans need a biblical source to tell them what is evil. I think the ‘Golden Rule’ just about sums up all we need to be good/not evil.
>>>Are you actually confused (meaning: do you really want to discuss these things) or are you just “ranting” as your tags suggests?<<<
I think I have used the rant tag on all my posts. 🙂
I always enjoy your replies Robaigh…thanks for your time.
For latest post go: Here
About the word of me
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The Word of Me... 
“The story lacking in Logic” That is your point of view concerning the bible. FYI , a) It is not the intention of God that Lucifer should turn up the way he is. b) the word Trinity was not in the bible c) God is not all knowing d) God is not everywhere e) there are things that God can’t do ( as some people perceive to be )
And your thought that human need no biblical source to tell them what is evil, and just follow the “Golden Rule”is contradicting yourself. Golden Rule is a biblical source. And another thing is, you can’t tell what is right and what is wrong if there is no law telling you. Because sin is the transgression of the law. The law in the first place was created for the wicked and not for the just.
So, if your interested to know the answers of a-d , just ask me . Until next time.
God bless
So…much..to…say. Can’t…seem…to..get it out. 🙂
I’ll try to approach this systematically.
1. You’re confused, I’m confused. Welcome to the club. 🙂
2. Really, in fact, all the doctrine stuff is secondary, sometimes tertiary or even further removed from the basic Christian precept that Jesus is Lord. The difficult part is unpacking what that phrase means. It’s not critical for somebody to understand the doctrine of the Trinity and to be able to debate it with the greatest theological minds of our time (a tribe to which I do not belong).
3. I appreciate what you’re trying to do in terms of creating dialog. Keep on keepin’ on.
4. Causticity: we’re all guilty of it from time to time.
5. I understand that Jesus was of Jewish/Hebrew origin, but where did the promise come from and why do we need redeeming…are you talking of Paul’s Original Sin Hypothesis? Wasn’t Jesus preaching that the ‘Kingdom of God was coming soon and for people to be good Jews?
Oy. 🙂 The promise came from YHWH to Abraham. The Lord said to Abraham: “Go forth from the land of your kinsfolk and from your father´s house to a land that I will show you. I will make of you a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
“I will bless those who bless you and curse those
who curse you. All the communities of the earth
shall find blessing in you” (Gen 12:1-3).
And:
“I will bless you abundantly and make your desc-
endants as countless as the stars of the sky and
the sands of the seashore; your descendants
shall take possession of the gates of their en-
emies, and in your descendants all the nations
of the earth shall find blessing — all this
because you obeyed my command (Gen 22:17-18).
It is commonly acknowledged that “nations” refers to the Gentiles throughout Scripture.
Just as an aside that maybe has some relevance to this discussion: I am fascinated by the grand story of the Hebrew Bible. It’s a love story between the Creator and His creation – a creation that keeps on screwing up (read Hosea for a graphic depiction of this), but then keeps on repenting and being welcomed home, even though the cycle keeps repeating. That’s where the need for redemption comes in. One is welcome to believe in the “original sin” of Adam and Eve (I do), is welcome to take the story as literal truth (I don’t, but must allow for the possibility that it’s literally, factually true, despite all unlikeliness), or is welcome to see within all of this the larger Truth that humans are fallible, but ultimately lovable by God.
Crap. I have to run, but I’ll come back to this tonight, when I have a bit more time. (This is a good conversation!)
Robaigh, I’m enjoying it too…have business right now…will return.
Dude. I’m sorry. We got swamped at work, I’m trying to sell my house in THIS economy and the cat has suddenly decided that rug-whizzing is a good idea. Thanks, cat. Anyway, I’m back, and I hope I can pick up my train of thought at the earlier junction.
You asked, “Wasn’t Jesus preaching that the Kingdom of God was coming soon and for people to be good Jews?”
Jein = Ja + Nein. The Scribes & Pharisees were trying to get people to be good Jews, and Jesus was trying to remind the scribes and Pharisees what that meant. Ultimately, this is what got him “in trouble” and led to the cross: Jesus’s idea (which Christians take as especially authoritative, since Jesus is the incarnation of God’s eternal Son) of what being a good Jew was didn’t necessarily coincide with the definition subscribed to by the Jewish religious leaders of the day. Much like many Christian fundamentalists/literalists do in some circumstances (I interrupt this response to report a flame war on the starboard bow), the scribes & Pharisees adhered to a philosophy that placed strict legalism above the spirit of God’s Law. Strictly speaking, Jesus was constantly thumbing his nose at that interpretation of the Law (healing on the Sabbath, eating, drinking, socializing with “unclean” people, etc.)
So, in that sense, Jesus was NOT trying to get people to be good Jews. Also, even though he didn’t abolish the Law Covenant with the Jews (the Chosen People), he expanded the definition of what it meant/means to be Chosen.
There’s actually so much packed into the questions you asked that a response of this sort is just totally inadequate. If I can get my bearings again, I’ll try to post something on my site in the next couple of weeks that addresses much of this. I may take an approach that appeals to the Nicene-Contantinopolitan Creed (AD 381).
But right now my thoughts aren’t really with me. In the meantime, I hope you’re doing well. Catch ya later.
R
Hi Robaigh, I feel for you, trying to sell your home in todays market. I wish you luck. 🙂
I tend to look at Christian theology with a critical eye…some say prejudiced…but I don’t think so. I look at all of this rich history of the Hebrew and early Christian people and I look for reason and reasons.
One cannot just take your local pastors words at face value…it has been filtered by their sects orientation. I think you have to go to sources wherever possible and approach all of it with a ‘question everything you think you know’ attitude.
You should know that one of my reasons for this blog is to throw things ‘out there’, and receive feedback to help me in learning.
I have just posted a new column.
Hiya.
The Quest for Truth. It’s a noble one. I think it’s a good thing to question and critique, so I applaud the approach you’re taking. The only trouble is that you can’t ALWAYS question EVERYTHING. It’s exhausting. If you find some things that you can latch onto as central, it gives you some grounding.
Also, yes, go to sources. Your pastor is a source, but I know what you’re saying. You’re pushing for primary sources, recognizing that the further one gets from the primary sources, the more layers of interpretation (some might say “corruption”) begin to adhere to it.
I’m going to go look at your new column now.
Cheers,
R
dove124
The ‘Golden Rule’ was formulated by Confucius…500 years before Jesus.
thewordofme,
>>>I also don’t think that the humans need a biblical source to tell them what is evil. I think the Golden Rule just about sums up all we need to be good/not evil.<<<
Dude, you’re really, really a very confused guy.If you don’t need biblical source to tell you what is evil, neither the Golden Rule , nor any Law formulated by your country ,are needed to tell you what is good. You’re a reckless individual, you don’t want anybody to tell you what to do.! Dude, had you ever tried to cross a certain busy street, with no regard to any rules? Cause you think , you don’t need those rules to tell you what to do. My suggestion to you is, try it for once. Just cross freely, don’t mind those vehicles coming towards you. And when you have tried that, pls. do tell me of the result.
So you’re saying that I need the Bible to tell me when to cross the street? 🙂
The fact is that over time people living together in groups will adopt a sort of golden rule all by themselves…without the help of any sky god.
One just has to check any of the literature about ‘lost tribes’ and how they govern themselves.
All people, except maybe sociopaths, will have a standard of sorts, as to how they want to live and be treated. More often than not it will be closely aligned with the ‘golden rule.’ It seems to be a universal human quality.
thewordofme,
FYI, Christ existed before Abraham,so He existed earlier than your Confusius. Read the Bible, before you ‘ll tell me who existed first.
Hi dove124, Thanks for writing.
The following religions have some sort of dialog that can be described as ‘The Golden Rule’:
Buddhism, Baha’i, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Taoism.
Seems to be pretty much a world wide thing…not something that Jesus started.