Where DID Cain get his wife?
July 5, 2008 30 Comments
So not to long after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden they have that long awaited and dreamt about sexual contact…it must have been driving Adam crazy seeing Eve all naked while they were in God’s good graces and keeping the gardening up and all. I wonder how long they were both running around naked? The Book of Jubilees (late 2nd. Century BCE) says Adam and Eve were kicked out about 8 years after being created. (Jubilees 3:33)
Anyway, after they were kicked out, they had the worlds first human sex and not long after Eve delivered a baby boy …Cain. Then she got pregnant again and had Abel. Now the Bible doesn’t say how long after the great ‘Kick Out’ she gave birth, but it seems like it was shortly after their expulsion.
Now, some time later…again Bible doesn’t say, but it was probably after Abel was at least 16-18 years old, after all he was the chief sheep-herder for the only 4 inhabitants of the earth.
So at some point when Able was young, after all God was visiting them for the first time, Cain got insanely mad at Abel, because he was smarter than Cain, and he killed his younger brother. We all kinda know what happened next. God confronted Cain and Cain asks God if he was his brother’s keeper…and so on. So Cain was kicked out of the clan of Adam and Eve the gardeners.
He leaves Eden (after packing up his other suit and toiletries), and lo and behold, he marries his wife.
Now we have all probably thought of this discrepancy at some point, and there is a whole line of apocryphal texts that have attempted to solve this problem by writing new Scripture, and claiming that he had sisters that were not mentioned at the time. Some have gone so far as to come up with the sisters names. Trouble with these documents is they seem to have all been written looong after the Pentateuch was written or transcribed or redacted (700 to 400BCE). So one should maybe not put to much stock in them.
Three people left on earth; Adam, Eve, and Cain. The official Protestant and Catholic Churches and the many sects, that seems to keep growing in number all the time, deny that the Apocrypha is true. Cain takes a wife.
After Cain and Able; Adam and Eve, the progenitors of the whole human race have no more children until Adam (and I assume Eve) is 130. Then they (Adam and Eve) have Seth. Then they have more sons, and finally…daughters.
While Adam and Eve are waiting until they are 130 years old to have more children…Cain takes a wife, and builds a city.
So to recap; Adam and Eve have Cain and Abel right after leaving Eden, where they had spent 8 years. Cain kills Abel. Only 3 people left on Earth. No more children for about a hundred or so years, but Cain takes a wife and builds a city.
Do you suppose Eve visited her grandchildren before Seth was born? Maybe skinned a few rabbits to provide clothing for the little ones?
Something is missing here. If you are purporting to write the history of the human race, as given to you by divine revelation from God, you really need to have your stories make more sense.
We know that the people of the time were very intelligent, after all the Egyptians had already built a civilization and were contemplating building the Pyramids :-), and the people of Babylonia were building cities (and Plains Indians of the Southwestern US were chasing and killing Mammoths).
You would think the scribes could put together a more believable and internally consistent story. Or, God would know his people were not dummies and tell them the true story.
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Have you made the assumption that the Bible talks about every child the people of the Bible birth and when? Is that a fair assumption? Can assumptions like this lead to false conclusions?
Well, they have and they just did.
Sorry Justin, the math just doesn’t add up.
I’ll admit if I made a mistake. Go ahead and admit yours hear. You made an assumption.
The answer is: Cain married his sister. The answer did indeed come from the Bible through logical deduction. Genesis 5:4 tells us that “�he [Adam] begat sons and daughters:” People get the fuzzy idea that Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel, and then one other son following the death of Abel, which is Seth. This isn’t true, as a further reading of Genesis tells us very clearly � Adam lived upwards to 800 years while having more children (including daughters).
I am sorry that you do not believe in God, but please, your analysis is once again flawed.
I will also let you in on a little secret, you have a religion; It’s called naturalism. Oh, and by the way, your religion cannot be supported by any real science in any real way either.
Sorry for the Ha Ha’s and I told you so attitude, I am only human. My hope is that you would see the truth for what it really is and to become born again into the kingdom of God. Please, do not take the chance of not believing. You only get one chance.
Hi Daniel Ginther, thanks for your comments.
The answer you spell out does not come from the Bible; it is a man-made attempt to explain a scripture that made no sense.
Genesis 4:1-5 NIV Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.” 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
Nothing between here that says Adam & Eve were doing more procreating
Genesis 4:13-18 NIV 13 Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 But the LORD said to him, “Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. 17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.
In verse 14 we see Cain worried about someone killing him, when only he and Adam and Eve were on the face of the earth (we’ll disregard the Neanderthals for now). No mention so far of daughters. Verse 16 Cain leaves the Cave of Treasures, his ancestral home, and travels to Nod. No mention of wife so far. Verse 17 he gets to Nod and sleeps with his wife. Huh?
Up to this point there is no mention of daughters. The story before this last verse, has only mentioned that there were 3 people left on earth (we’ll disregard the Neanderthal’s for now).
Finally we get back to Adam & Eve.
Genesis 4: 25-26 NIV 25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh. At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.
Genesis 5: 3-5 NIV 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.
Finally in chapter 5, verse 4; we have a first mention of daughters. After at least 130 years has passed. No mention of daughters before that time. Nowhere does the Bible mention that there were other females on earth…before Genesis 5:4. You have to follow the sequence of events mentioned in scripture.
You write: “I am sorry that you do not believe in God, but please, your analysis is once again flawed. I will also let you in on a little secret, you have a religion; It’s called naturalism. Oh, and by the way, your religion cannot be supported by any real science in any real way either.”
I believe my analysis stands. I use the words from the Bible; you are extrapolating stuff that is not there.
My (and others) definition of religion is belief in a supernatural, magical being that floats around in ‘heaven’ and demands obeisance from us mere mortals. Belief that some god created our earth along with trillions of stars and probably millions of other planets for our exclusive use and enjoyment, and by the way who liked to involve himself in the personal problems of some wandering Hebrews.
This story that the Hebrews made up is ridiculous and cannot be supported by hard evidence.
If by ‘naturalism’ you mean science, yes I believe in it, but I do not worship it. Science can be proven, religion cannot. So I follow my logic; I believe in stuff that can be observed and duplicated and looked at in the light of day.
I do see the truth…it is you who have the blinders on my friend. twom
Justin,
Where did I make a mistake?
Your mistake is in assuming God put every detail in the Bible. God allows things like this so that you cannot be proud. You must come to him humbly. God could allow for the explanation stated above, but just because it doesn’t spell it out doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Prove it.
thewordofme, here is the situation. You make the case that the Bible must contradict because of the “where did Cain’s wife come from” question. I showed how it is possible for it to not contradict. This means that you failed to prove your point that the Bible must contradict.
Hi Justin, hope you are doing well.
Hey…the beginning of humankind is serious stuff dude. The story doesn’t deliver what it should, so people start extrapolating.
If I argue with people about Biblical stuff they always tell me…’if it doesn’t say it in the Bible it ain’t so.’
I’ve heard all the arguments about sisters that are unmentioned. Fact remains that Bible doesn’t mention daughters of A&E till after Seth.
Whats a person to do? 🙂
2 + 2 = 4 even though the Bible may not specifically say so. Everything in the Bible is true, but not all truth is in the Bible.
Hi Justin, thanks for writing.
I refer you to the line in my reply above. “If it doesn’t say so in the Bible it ain’t so.” That’s what Christians say to me if I try to extrapolate something from the Bible.
You do know, of course, that the evidence for modern human habitation of earth goes back several hundred thousand years? There is no doubt at all that there were millions of people on earth 6,000 years ago.
Couple of thoughts for you. Would you agree that murder, torture, rape, and slavery are the worst things that anyone could do to humans?
God either directed or/and condoned all of the above. Jesus condoned slavery.
Look at the history of New England (well Actually just Virginia & south) and the South and slavery. Ministers were condoning slavery up to the 20th. Century.
It took secular leaders and common folk to recognize that slavery was wrong…religion went right along with it for thousands of years.
I kind of look at it this way; the Hebrews that wrote the Bible grew up with slavery, their dad’s grew up with it, their granddad’s grew up with it…the writers didn’t give slavery a second thought…it was normal.
Little did they realize when they wrote their ‘holy text’ that slavery wasn’t Normal, it wasn’t a Godlike thing to do, and a real God would not condone enslavement. This of course speaks to the Bible not being inspired by God, but written by men. And remember all those babies being bashed against the walls.
Hope you are doing well.
thewordofme, Do you see anywhere in the Bible where God said it was moral to own slaves? What I see is God telling slaves how to be good slaves by working hard. Even when you disregard the fact that we live in America and think of the much more cruel American slavery as opposed to the slavery of Biblical times, you can still see that the Bible is not condoning slavery.
Hi Justin, thanks for your reply
Sorry to take so long….I’ve been incredibly busy.
You write to me:
“thewordofme, Do you see anywhere in the Bible where God said it was moral to own slaves? What I see is God telling slaves how to be good slaves by working hard. Even when you disregard the fact that we live in America and think of the much more cruel American slavery as opposed to the slavery of Biblical times, you can still see that the Bible is not condoning slavery.”
In Exodus 21 the guidelines for the buying, selling and treatment of slaves is given. God says in verse 4 that if a male slave marries, his wife and children shall remain with the master when the slave departs because technically speaking they belong to the master. Now if the slave is imprudent enough to protests because he loves his wife and children and wants to stay on, the consequences can be pretty drastic. In verse 6 the master is directed to “Bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear (ouch!) through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever”.
Deuteronomy15:16-17. Here the master is told to “Do likewise to your maid slaves.”
In Exodus 21:7-9 God instructs men how to go about selling their own daughters into slavery. It is worth noting that many church officials including popes have owned slaves.
Joel 3:8 God warns that, “I will sell your sons and your daughters to the Judeans, and they shall in turn sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off.”
1 Tim. 6:1-2; “Let slaves regard their masters as worthy of all honor.”
Matthew 10:24 and John 13:16 remind us that slaves are never better than their masters. Women take note that in Titus 2:9-10 slaves are ordered to, “Be submissive to your master and give satisfaction in every respect.”
Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22 which say, “Slaves obey your master.” Of the venerated Ten Commandments, numbers four and ten recognize and therefore give tacit approval to slavery. Neither the Old nor New Testament contains an outright condemnation of slavery.
Matthew 8:5-13 Jesus heals the Roman centurion’s slave while praising the centurion for his exemplary faithfulness.
In Luke 12:47, the parable of the faithful and unfaithful slave, Jesus recommends the beating of slaves.
The most astounding pro-slavery statement in the Bible is made by Jesus himself in Matthew 10:24-25. Here Jesus not only reminds slaves that they are never above their master, he recommends that they strive to be like him.
Throughout the Bible tacit approval is given to slavery by not condemning it.
Is this really a Godly thing?
Would you like to reconsider your words. 🙂
There is a tendency to look at slavery as if it was something of the past. It is estimated that there are today 12.3 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. For more information, please visit – http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2006/. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery.
The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw the practice altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many people fail to understand is that slavery in Biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.
The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. Black people were considered slaves because of their nationality – many slave owners truly believed black people to be “inferior human beings” to white people. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrew were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms of slavery. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.
Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside-out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God, receiving His salvation – God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, he will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.
From http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
Hi Justin, thanks for your reply.
I think any one who is/was a slave would tell you that no matter what the reason (race, capture in a war, economic, etc.), slavery is one of the worst possible conditions to be in. Doesn’t matter at all what the reason is. Exodus 21: verse 4 and 6 illustrate this in a very horrifying way.
If the Bible gives directions as to how a slave is to be treated, then it is ipso facto condoning the practice. All it would have taken was a clear paragraph, from God, condemning all forms of slavery and Christians throughout time would have been fighting against the human practice.
However since the Bible was written by man, not God, there’s nothing there. What is there, is man writing about something they grew up in…and they thought nothing about the practice, so they wrote what they felt…not God.
Christian apologetics has no ground here…God did not condemn it…God did not write it.
You write:
“Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society.”
I would think that yes…religion, God, and the Bible’s purpose IS to reform; not only society, but also man himself
To me this is serious stuff and should not be hidden or dismissed by the church, or Christianity. There needs to be deep analysis of the subject. twom
Well, that is the answer. Sorry you don’t like it, but it is still true.
I like you, you are a very smart person, and it’s nothing wrong with questioning about those missing parts of the Bible; We all must understand that the Bible was put togeter by a bunch of people whom among them selfs decide witch books will make it in to the bible and witch wouldn’t, what we have today (KJV) is true but with alot of omissions due to the fact that human nature is to have power and power is control deceiving all man kind of the true and the only true of our all mighty creator, I encourage you to FIND the TRUE, there are lots of books that will thake you where you want to go…… like books by Thomas Horn and David Flynn, James Quatro. Remember “knowledge will set you free”
Hi Eduardo, thanks for writing
Thank you for the compliment…my hat size just got bigger 🙂
Last things first. Regarding you’re telling me that: “knowledge will set you free.” That is very true and knowledge has set me free. The more you learn about religion the more you can see that it is not true.
The Old Testament was put together by a bunch of Jewish rabbis/mythologists somewhere around 500 BCE. The New Testament was mostly put together by Eusebius, 300 or so years after Jesus was killed. The early church (Catholic) was responsible for the final cut, and they held the scriptures hostage for a thousand years or so, changing them as they saw fit.
The King James Version is pretty good, but some of the language is a bit hard to understand today. I have noticed that some versions will change a word or two…sometimes that completely changes the meaning of the verse…but ultimately it doesn’t matter because its all myth.
Hi, (what should i call you?)
Yes is true that “religion” is very confusing but GOD is not a myth. Most of the world’s major religions were built around carefully selected pieces of this esoteric information that were taught to the general public at various times throughout history. As time passed and the religions grew, bureaucracy, dogma and superstition developed, which further distorted the original teachings. Science developed in response to the woefully poor explanations of reality offered by western religion. The early scientists were persecuted and deemed heretics for questioning the Church and delving into the mind of God, when all they sought to do was to understand the world in which they lived. Scientific scepticism of all things mystical is still very much apparent today.
A full-grown universe didn’t just suddenly manifest – such a complex structure needed to be carefully designed and constructed step by step. But before we delve into the process of creation I need to clarify some of the terminology used and provide you with some important background information.
The universe can be described as “positive existence” (or just simply “existence”) and anything outside of the universe (i.e. the metaverse) can be described as “negative existence” (which is not the same as non-existence). Negative existence does not mean something doesn’t exist; it means it exists beyond space and time in a “reality” that we cannot even begin to comprehend.
The Infinite
The Infinite is the metaverse; the passive Creator; the Ain Soph of Kabbalah; the Parabrahman of Hinduism; the sum total of positive and negative existence. The Infinite is the ultimate GOD of Gods, but he is a passive God that supplies and maintains the primordial matter and energy of the metaverse that his “children” need to build their own universes. Everything that exists (and also everything that does not exist) is sustained by the endless power of the Infinite. The Infinite is the father of everything and also the mother of everything. When the two aspects of energy (father) and matter (mother) combine an infinite number of primordial atoms or monads (sons) are born into existence. The monads are initially unconscious but they have the potential to become Absolutes (fully realised and liberated Gods of their own universes).
The word “infinite” is usually understood to mean “endless”, but it actually has two aspects – it is without beginning and without end. So questions like “where did it come from?”, “what existed before it?” and “will it ever end?” are meaningless. The Infinite has always been and always will be. The infinite encompasses everything, so nothing can be outside of it. The Kabbalistic term “Ain” is usually understood to mean “nothing” in the sense of an empty void beyond the Infinite (Ain Soph), but that is impossible since nothing can “exist” beyond infinity. So perhaps it is best to describe Ain as “not even nothing”, or to forget about it completely because it is impossible.
The Absolute
The Absolute is the creator of the universe, the Ain Soph Aur (limitless light) of Kabbalah, The Brahman of Hinduism. “Absolute” (from the Latin Absolutum) means freed or liberated. The Absolute is a perfected monad that has liberated itself from the illusion of the universe it “grew up” in and has become the unmanifest God of his own Universe. It therefore spans negative existence and positive existence. The Absolute can focus his attention inwards on the universe, or outwards into the metaverse.
Like everything else in existence, the Absolute has three aspects:
The Energy aspect directs the primordial energy (of the Infinite) to power the universe and all creation.
The Consciousness aspect is the universal mind that unites all creation within a single collective consciousness. The universe was conceived by the universal mind, it is sustained by meditative focus, and would dissolve back into negative existence if this concentration ceased.
The Matter aspect is the 49-atoms, the virgin matter (the celestial Virgin Mary) from which the various planes are built. Matter is the cosmic womb in which evolving monads develop their consciousness.
All living beings possess an inherent drive to evolve, to become the highest possible expression of life and to fully realise themselves. Personal development is the wilful co-operation with this natural evolutionary process, but an understanding of the processes involved is required if it is to be truly effective. We only learn lessons and develop new faculties through direct experience; theoretical learning does not develop consciousness. For example, seeing the word “fear” in print is not the same as experiencing it firsthand.
Remember “Knowledge will set you free”
Eduardo.
Hi Eduardo, thank you for your thoughtful reply.
My name is Bill. You may call me that, or as some do—twom (The Word Of Me)
Try as I might, I cannot come up with any proofs for the existence of ANY God. Lots of talk and writing, but no proofs…I guess that’s why they call it ‘faith’, you have to believe in a spirit that never shows him/her self. The only sign of his/her existence is peoples writing or talking.
Many people believe in monsters, demons, angels, ghosts and other supernatural entities. They essentially believe in magic. I don’t believe in magic or the supernatural and I have never seen proof of it…Ever. You may know that there is a website run by a magician who calls himself ‘The Amazing Randi’ who will give a million dollars to anyone who can prove that *any* supernatural phenomenon is real…the offer has been out there over ten years now…no proofs so far.
Early scientists or ‘Naturalists’ as they were called up till about mid 1800’s were, as their name implies, looking for natural explanations for the world around them, and they immediately started to find them. As early as the 1600’s AD naturalists were finding evidence that Noah’s flood was a Biblical hoax…never happened. Almost all modern sciences show rapidly growing evidence that disprove most of the Christian Bible stories. So I am fairly confident in saying that the Christian concept of El, Yahweh, Elohim, and Jehovah is untrue, false, and non-existent.
Seriously…think about it…would a *real God* really want to mess around with us humans for a few thousand years, and interfere with our internal affairs…how infernally egotistical is that?
This is not to say that there is not ‘something’ out there that had-or-has an effect on our universe. If that is so, I doubt very much that we could possibly understand ‘It’ or even if ‘It’ is still around.
You get very mystical and wordy in trying to explain a world-view that I cannot understand or believe in because of its supernatural nature. I am so used to dealing with solid facts and evidences that can be looked at and handled, and logically explained, that my brain does not readily wrap around these concepts.
twom
Hi Bill,
I guess you’re like James the apostle, see to believe…. that’s okay there are many like you, I don’t know how old are you but very soon you will get the confirmation that you’re seeking. Do you really believe that when you die it’s all over?
Allow me to share some questions and answers with you.
Why did God created humanity into a universe already heavely contaminated with sin?
The human race is not responsible for sin. Sin was ALREADY present in the universe when God created Adam and Eve. Satan and his evil angels had been sinning for some period of time, a very long time, before Adan and Eve were created.
Why didn’t God solve the SIN problem with the angels? After all, that’s where the sin problem started. Why was the human race drawn into this mess? We didn’t ask to be here. Not a single one of us asked to be born. And we certainly didn’t ask to be born sinners. I don’t mean that babies are born sinning, I just mean that, as the Bible say, “ALL have sinned…” Romans 3:23.
Why did God create Adan and Eve perfect and then put Satan right in their neighborhood?
If God really didn’t want Adan and Eve to sin, why did God place the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil right in their “living room” where they had to pass by it every day?
Also, why did God created a single tree that contained the knowledge of BOTH Good and Evil?
Before Adan and Eve sinned, is there any Biblical record that they ever praised God? the answer is “NO”
Before they sinned, did Adan and Eve understand what a magnificent garden God had give then for their home? How could they, they had never experienced anything else.
Before they sinned, did they understand what good health was? How they never been sick! They have never seen disease nor death in anything-not in humanity, not in animals, nor in plants. Never know anything other than perfection.
The fact is, is impossible to know what sickness is unless you’ve been sick or seen someone sick. It’s impossible to be appropriately grateful for all you have if you have never been without. It’s impossible to know “good” unless you have know the opposite: “evil”
The only way we change is by going through difficult times. If every thing is going well, we’ll just keep right on doing what we’re doing. The ONLY reason we change course, and begin to grow in maturity and spirituality, the ONLY way we build character, is by going through trails.
Again, why didn’t God solve the “sin problem” with the angels, who were obviously the first sinners? Mankind, Adan and Eve, were initially novices in the “sin” bushiness which had been going on for some time in the heavenly realms before their creation on earth.
God’s plan was for Jesus to came as a “man” and die for the sins of the world…Revelation 13:8.
Why couldn’t Jesus have come as an angel and die for the sinning angels?
Why did God instead have to create the human race, the majority of whom would go trough hell on earth, then die, only to be resurrected, judge and then annihilated or “burned,” either forever, or “as long as they deserve”?
In order for Jesus to come in the form of an angel, to die for the sins of the evil angels, angels would have to be capable of dying, and they do not die…Luke 20:36.
This created a major problem. Since sin entered the universe when Satan sinned, how could sin ever be eliminated from the universe if angels don’t die?
And if they cannot be destroyed, then sin will remain in the universe for eternity! Yet Jesus came to “do away with sin!”…John 1:29.
So how does this all work out?
God created a new race of individuals, humanity, individuals with flesh and blood capable of dying, a necessity for the plan of salvation since Jesus’ plan was to come in human form and DIE for the sins of the world. But human beings would be capable of dying ONLY if they sinned. Before sin there was no death, neither in Adan or Eve, nor in all of Creation.
If neither Adan and Eve, nor their offspring, had sinned, there would be no death. in that case, there would be no need for Jesus to die for us, since no human being have sinned. They would not have known the difference between good an evil. They would have been incapable of purposely choosing God for his goodness because they knew nothing else. It would have been impossible for Adan to Eve to appreciate God’s boundless love for His children, whether perfect or sinful, because Adan and Eve knew nothing of sin, calamity or utter wickedness.
It was necessary for then (us) to know evil in order for them (us) eventually to choose “good” intelligently and willingly.
It is impossible to know good without knowing evil; it is impossible to learn right without understanding what is wrong, and that often takes personal experience in wrong-doing.
Thus humanity is made the vehicle through which the reconciling of the universe is to be effected…Issiah 46:1, Ephesians 1:10-11, Colossians 1:20
Take care,
Eduardo
Hi again Eduardo,
You write:
“Why did God created humanity into a universe already heavily contaminated with sin? The human race is not responsible for sin. Sin was ALREADY present in the universe when God created Adan and Eve. Satan and his evil angels had been sinning for some period of time, a very long time, before Adan and Eve were created.”
You see the problem here is that I don’t believe in Adam and Eve or angels, evil or otherwise. The whole ‘drama’ that people of religion dream up is silly and illogical. Paul conceived most, if not all, of the Christian theology (New Testament) that people swear by nowadays. The Old Testament is a great myth, but there is no literal truth there. The Christian God and the drama of sin and redemption as explained by purveyors of religion today makes no sense. It is obviously a construct of the human mind. God is made up in ‘our’ image.
You can make up all the complicated and confusing theodicy you want, but it does not explain the bewildering illogic of the whole story. What the Biblical stories tell of is a confused, blundering, fumbling, non-omniscient, non-omnipotent, and evil God that is constantly making mistakes and misjudging the very beings he is supposed to have created. He supposedly inspires the writers of the Bible, but the document shows no divine knowledge, no hint that we are listening to the actual words of an all knowing supreme being. It is a man-made document that is a product of a time when man was searching for a higher truth, and nothing else.
There is no higher truth. We are born, live a time, we die…end of story. If anyone can prove otherwise…let him come forward.
You write:
“Why didn’t God solve the SIN problem with the angels? After all, that’s where the sin problem started. Why was the human race drawn into this mess? We didn’t ask to be here. Not a single one of us asked to be born. And we certainly didn’t ask to be born sinners. I don’t mean that babies are born sinning; I just mean that, as the Bible say, “ALL have sinned…” Romans 3:23.
Why did God create Adan and Eve perfect and then put Satan right in their neighborhood?
If God really didn’t want Adan and Eve to sin, why did God place the tree of knowledge of ‘Good and Evil’ right in their “living room” where they had to pass by it every day?”
These are perfect examples of the illogical acts that no competent God would do. This is the thinking of wandering Hebrew scribes or story tellers of the time.
twom
Hi Bill,
You write:
There is no higher truth. We are born, live a time, we die…end of story. If anyone can prove otherwise…let him come forward
Well some one already came forward ones (Jesus) and hi’s coming again, and that will take place in your life time, and NO when you die it’s NOT the end of story, read…Matthew 10:31.
I will said that “DEAD” it’s just the beginning for the reason of our CREATION.
You write:
You see the problem here is that “I don’t believe” in Adam and Eve or angels, evil or otherwise. The whole ‘drama’ that people of religion dream up is silly and illogical.
It’s ILLOGICAL to those whom would not allow their harts main and soul to be open and look at the two sides of the coin.
You also write:
These are perfect examples of the illogical acts that no competent God would do. This is the thinking of wandering Hebrew scribes or story tellers of the time.
It seems to me that you miss the point, and here is way….
The only way we change is by going through difficult times. If every thing is going well, we’ll just keep right on doing what we’re doing. The ONLY reason we change course, and begin to grow in maturity and spirituality, the ONLY way we build character, is by going through trails.
Isaac Newton ones wrote:
“I suspect that my theories may all depend upon a force for which philosophers have searched all of nature in vain.”
During the formation of modern science an philosophy of the 17th century, the highest achievement lay not in the realm of discovery, but rediscovery. The Renaissance began at the end of the Byzantine Empire in 1453, when Constantinople fell to the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Volumes of classical Greek manuscripts were made available to Western Europe from Constantinople was the work of the Neo-Platonists. This philosophy continued the ideas of Plato, who believed that all the workings of knowledge and civilization had been conveyed to humanity from a divine source, and was not conceived by the mains of man. Through a series of disasters on a world scale, civilization and knowledge that had produced it was lost.
“Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, come pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters an education; and so you have to begin all over again like children”…Plato, The Timaeus.
The Neo-Platonist manuscripts of Hippolytus, Proclus, Arisophanes, Plutarch, Apuleius, and many others from antiquity developed the theme that knowledge had been giving to man from a divine source. Through its misuse resulting in the corruption of mankind, it was lost by subsequent judgment from heaven.
Neo-Platonic views of the time also sought to link the celestial and natural world with the divine, and idea borne out of a reawakening to the scientific value of the ancient texts of the Greeks. Ancient religious, and esoteric works were reassessed within the context of Judaic-Christian tought.
Geometers, mathematicians, chronologists, philosophers and theologians of the age searched the text of the ancients for the “lost pure knowledge” or “prisca sapienta” that would merge all sciences.Late medieval thinkers such as Descartes, Francis Bacon, and John Dee were obsessed with re-obtaining the prisca sapienta. They poured over the records of antiquity to recover it, believing that the ancient had distilled the essence of it in mathematical truths or some in a symbolic language.
Groups of mystics living in Spain an France during the 12th and 13th centuries believed that the mysteries in the universe could be derived from names, phrases, and especially numbers contained in the writing of Moses.
Through this reasoning, they developed a tradition of the Kabbalah, meaning “received” or “revelation”.
You Write:
So I am fairly confident in saying that the Christian concept of El, Yahweh, Elohim, and Jehovah is untrue, false, and non-existent.
I said to you:
Read more, not only the books that proves “to you” the non- existence of God but also read the books that proves with out the benefit of the dough his existence, LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN, what better to have hope, a reward of an infinite happiness, light versus emptiness, nothing, desolation,darkness.
Remember “Knowledge will set you free”
Eduardo.
Hello Eduardo,
You write:
“Well some one already came forward ones (Jesus) and hi’s coming again, and that will take place in your life time, and NO when you die it’s NOT the end of story, read…Matthew 10:31. I will said that “DEAD” it’s just the beginning for the reason of our CREATION.”
Eduardo I came to the realization around the age of 13 that there was no God. I’m 65 now and in that long time span I have never seen, heard, or read anything to disprove that realization.
With the coming of age of the Internet, people now have the capability to research almost anything that has to do with religion without leaving their home. I can read from 30 or more different Bibles at the click of a mouse button. Pretty soon I will be able to look at the Dead Sea Scrolls on the net.Publications from around the world, research papers at major universities and colleges, live cameras at archaeological digs. I can and do subscribe to major science publications and get them immediately on the web.
I have only been researching religion for about 2 years on the web and I want to tell you that those 2 years have yielded more information than 40 years of on and off library research. The thing is that sciences that have a relevance to Biblical veracity are showing unanimously that other than many geographic and some kingly references…the book is not true in most or many ways.
I can look at science references and research them and find the background evidences and weigh them myself. I can read or listen to leaders of their field of science…and do the same to those that disagree with them. I am not an expert in science…but I know how to read and research really well…and I do that a lot. I am not being misled by a bunch of phony’s, I am following leaders in their fields and have a healthy dose of suspicion in what I read as I research.
You write:
“The Neo-Platonist manuscripts of Hippolytus, Proclus, Arisophanes, Plutarch, Apuleius, and many others from antiquity developed the theme that knowledge had been giving to man from a divine source. Through its misuse resulting in the corruption of mankind, it was lost by subsequent judgment from heaven.”
These ancient people you mention above are philosophers, they write from an enormously deprived scholarly position. They weren’t aware of thousands of details and facts that we now don’t even think about…it’s so common knowledge for us. They didn’t know that humans were spread out all over a world so huge that they couldn’t even conceive of it. They had no concept of science and of the *real* history of the earth and humanity. No one did at the time, and that’s how the Hebrew myth makers were able to get away with the making up of a God. A God, by the way, that has never interacted with humans. Knowledge really has set me free.
twom
You you should change the page name Where DID Cain get his wife? The Word of Me… to something more catching for your webpage you make. I liked the the writing nevertheless.
Well, when I was 10, another kid wraped their arms around my neck while I was swimming in the deep end of a pool. After being unable to shake the kid I went under. I was someplace with no light and i had no feeling. I turned 3 different directions and nothing. Before I turned the last direction I woke up on the side of the pool coughing – my dad had pulled me out. Where was I? It was not some wild dream, as I can dream of more than a dark void. If I had made the 4th turn I would not be here. When you dream,why do you dream of things not real? That is not logical either. Like the movie “CONTACT” I cannot prove it, but there is something out there.
Where did Cain and also Seth get there wife’s?The same place Adam got his ,from one of there ribs.
Yeah right!
It’s pretty much understood now that there was never an Adam and Eve; just an allegorical myth. Way to much bone and genome evidence against.
Before A & E, back in Genesis 1:27 KJV So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Note “them”