No…There Was Not a Noah’s Flood…Sorry
January 31, 2009 16 Comments
So this Christian person writes to me and calls me a snob and complains that what I write is offensive for him to read. He accuses me of conjecturing on the basis of what I have been taught and therefore think I know…Well…DUHH…where does knowledge come from?
He writes:
“As a Christian, your atheistic views and dogmatic snobbery about them is offensive to read, the fact is that you don’t know – you are only conjecturing based on what you think you know and have been taught. You are no better off in your belief system than anyone else, so your high horse judgmental attitude is a put off; no different than any other fanatic, so get over yourselves.”
He is commenting on my blog of July 12, 2008 called: “More Evidence against Noah’s Flood.” Go Here for blog.
My ‘belief system’ is science, and yes I believe that my belief system is far superior to your Christian belief system when talking about the real world. Its superiority comes from empirical knowledge that is transparent and accessible for all to see and test…and learn about. Your belief system is a book that was written by many different authors over roughly a thousand year period. It has many facts in it about geographical areas and some historic personages, but it is very flawed despite the denials by Christians…who either ignore the evidence or refuse to learn it.
It (Christianity) is also responsible for hundreds and hundreds of years of repression, torture, murder, death by any number of causes by believing in the power of prayer and just plain ol’ suppression of the human spirit. I don’t let Islam off the hook either…if anything they are much worse today. The wars between Christian sects in the Middle Ages though was probably worse than any Christian / Muslim conflicts…so far.
He writes:
“That said, I like the scientific approach and take the evidence presented here seriously. As a critical thinker, I correlate between opposing views and take such opposite views as presented here with my own beliefs and research them out to further gain insight. I know that no conclusive answer will be had until Judgment Day, so I don’t get into this “know it all” game with people.”
Scientific knowledge is pretty much all I use in this blog. I’m not just making the stuff up. I have been studying what I write about many years, and I don’t write about it if I don’t believe it. I think one can come to a logical conclusion on the evidence that is out there right now. There is no evidence, despite what the evangelical fundamentalist say, for a world-wide flood…ever…in the earth’s history. That is not my personal opinion (well, yes it is actually), that is the opinion of the sciences that work in fields that somehow impinge on that myth of a flood. That scientific opinion comes from lifelong work and study of literally hundreds, or possibly thousands, of scientists.
He writes:
“From what I have ascertained, a local flood in the Mesopotamian area some where between 3000 BC and 2300 BC is quite possible, and God’s Word to Noah written by Moses could very well have been in the context of that area as far as Noah need to know. There are also interpretation and time gaps from historical accounts that can account for minor discrepancies when trying to account for events thousands of years after the fact. So you trying to to pin “disproof” by variations of interpretation and context, just shows your atheistic bias – a dogmatic desire to “Not Believe in God.” So don’t make the mistake of excluding yourselves from being part of a sect as well, as offensive as that may be to join the rest of “us” in darkness figuring things out as best we can. Restricting the Flood to this local area also takes care of the only 8 people spawning humanity again “disproof” idea you present.”
There is archaeological evidence for a large local flood in the Mesopotamian area around 2900 BC, however there is no evidence for one around 2400 to 2300 BC, which is the time zone that most Christian apologists place Noah’s flood. The DNA evidence says that the human race existing nowadays does not come from either two or eight people. With all the other real evidence that backs up this statement in one way or another, I think I’ll go with this worldview.
He writes:
“Another point, is that I’m currently researching the aftermath and tribal dispersal of the people listed in Genesis 7-10, this historically bears out. So it is unlikely that one event didn’t occur while the subsequent events did. The fact that this probably was a local flood and beared out factually from there, doesn’t seem to be explored here. I think that shows a bias and not an actual pursuit of knowledge. You are too happy to gloat “see, there is no God” and “see, you Christians are stupid” for any serious critique of your own views to be part of this information.”
You might want to check into the information about the Earth being populated from pole to pole in the times that are recorded in the Bible. The evidence from the earth sciences is that the world was teaming with humanity and never suffered a total wiping out such as the ‘Deluge.’ We all came from Africa, not Mesopotamia, and there is very long DNA evidence backing that up. I’m sorry if that disturbs you, or you think I am gloating too much. All the information is on the Internet and strangely enough, it comes from actual scientific sources, not atheist sites.
He writes:
“Suit yourselves, but I’ll take this information with a grain of salt and add it to the rest in my research, it does help and thanks for the research. And I’m as appalled by so-called Christian theorists that take no time to actually add any scientific research to their theories and likewise present a bias view. Besides that, I know there is a God and He’s My Father – if you don’t that’s your choice, but don’t get up on a high horse and deny things you really don’t know based on perception of finite knowledge.”
I am writing from the position of someone who is throwing the information out there. Many people will not read a scientific journal or magazine or take night classes in archaeology or religious studies, but might read a blog. My opinion, from all I have studied so far, is there probably isn’t a God. There is just overwhelming evidence in all science fields that there is many-many problems with all religions, not just Christianity. The Actual and Real evidence is just not there.
Christianity has no more superior knowledge, or more proofs, or claims to be more real than any other religion. In fact the reality of there being sooo-many different religions, and so many offshoots of mainline religions, each feeling that they have the only “truth”, speaks to the probable case of there not being Any truth…to Any God.
That’s just my opinion…twom
Bible
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About the word of me
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The Word of Me... 
Like I said, you are clouded by your bias – your premise that your bias is better than mine isn’t valid. I will go through point by point and refute your points, but I’m working and don’t have the time. So I’ll break it up in to several posts.
“My ‘belief system’ is science”
Exactly, and science is simply a collection of observations and perceptions by finite minds. For you to state that human understanding is absolute strikes at the heart of your RELIGION. Yes, you like that, you are not superior as you like to believe you are, and your desire for this prideful stance is the your motivation for your RELIGION of absolute God hatred/ignorance. You want to think you are above that, but you fanatic adherence to it – you prove your own case wrong – in every human being there is a need for a belief system because human’s are just finite you can’t get around it. So being egotistical, you think by coming up with cute conundrum belief systems gets you off the hook, like “My belief system is that all belief systems are stupid and unfounded, thereby my belief system must be superior to all the other dumb ones – HAHAHA” You just prove what god says about the Heart of Man, it’s wicked because of it’s Prideful reluctance to except anything above himself in spiritual order or Truth.
The visceral nature in which you attack what I said shows off the “crazy fanatic” attitude when you belief system is called into question, just like you scoff at some fundamentalist for doing who presents the opposite view. You are no different, think about that next time you belittle someone for posting their belief system. Look at your post and read the wild assertions of I’m right because others agree with me, and your visceral method of attacking those who don’t adhere to your belief system. Pure irrational emotionalism, the same you proudly mock others for displaying.
Two other points, right after I read your post I read another scientific site that was also disputing the Flood but they concluded that the actually Flood was a local Flood in Mesopotamian, with documented evidence of it. But like I said your agenda of see there’s No God blinds you to such information. No different than any other fanatic, but that Pride just doesn’t like that, oops proving god right again – gotta watch that, that artificial facade of no religion is going to crumple if you keep that up.
The other point, is that “science” is being re-written all the time, Physics of the 21 st century blows away the theories and laws of the 18th century so many atheists find to be canon. If you bother to study the latest String Theory Dimensional Time Travel you find out that all those so-called Laws fall apart under certain conditions. If you weren’t so caught up in your religion, you’d be open to the fact that science is just perception taken at a particular time and context, it’s the best a finite human can do within their own limited scope. But you can’t dispute things you don’t know with things you have come to know through these limited means. You can’t get around it, but I’m sure you’ll keep trying because your Pride won’t let you admit that. But then again God says that about people like you, so again you just prove Him right. Stuck again.
And finally, your point abut wars and killings – yes that’s the old irresponsible human talking again. Just like Adam, when he was asked, Why did you Partake of the Fruit I told you not to Partake in, “Oh the wife she told me to”, then Eve why did you entice your Husband “Oh the serpent said to”, and Satan had nothing to say he couldn’t pass the buck on to anyone. But there you go, God did this or no He doesn’t exist so it’s people that believe in god that did this, no in truth it’s prideful people like you who don’t want to listen to God and follow His Word about not shedding blood, but they make up their own belief system so it excuses their behavior. The Soviet Union and China are examples of the atheistic versions of those religious slaughter houses. Oh that didn’t’ make it in your list, I wonder why? Get real and get off your high horse, you aren’t superior and you wanting to be is your problem.
“and I don’t write about it if I don’t believe it”
Yes exactly at some point you have to take what you BELIEVE on FAITH, oh oh, oh, oh getting on shaky ground here.
“There is archaeological evidence for a large local flood in the Mesopotamian area around 2900 BC, however there is no evidence for one around 2400 to 2300 BC, which is the time zone that most Christian apologists place Noah’s flood.”
Wrong the article I was reading talked about a bigger flood in the 2500 BC range that fit with the Noah Flood description. Search it out yourself the same google search that brought me to your site. And if it’s a local flood then that side steps your 8 people repopulate the world criterion, which I mentioned in my last post, but you ignored – not very accurate of you.
“My opinion, from all I have studied so far, is there probably isn’t a God.”
How the heck would you know, you don’t have any scope to make that assessment? What is God going to do jump into a petri dish just to satisfy your prideful request that God must prove that He exist to you, a procreation of His Creation? That’s the flaw your whole argument, you are trying to disprove the infinite with bits and pieces of the finite world. It makes no sense, but you insist on it anyway. Like a , what’s it called, ummm, oh yeah like an irrational belief. Oh wait a minute that’s for us inferior people, how did you superior people get infected with that? Maybe it’s just a facade.
And the Bible talks of a pre-Admanic Earth and it can been seen as focused on the events relative to the Middle East area, so you can still have all kinds of outside events that aren’t recorded in the Bible, which says it could have much more written into it but only that the main message of Salvation and God’s guidance to man was to be communicated with it. So it doesn’t include everything argument doesn’t hold water either.
“The Actual and Real evidence is just not there” Actual and Real are completely subjective to your perception. The best you can do is find others to agree with you and say that is proof of what is real, but then again that would depend on the circumstances.
“Christianity has no more superior knowledge, or more proofs, or claims to be more real than any other religion. In fact the reality of there being sooo-many different religions, and so many offshoots of mainline religions, each feeling that they have the only “truth”, speaks to the probable case of there not being Any truth…to Any God.”
That’s because you aren’t a Child of God and can’t be unless you put your pride down and become Born of the Water and Spirit. So I hope you do, then you’ll see – but if you continue to choose not to just know that your science is as fleeting as anything else – you just choose to put your faith in it like I put my faith I God. Fact is that my faith in God in no way contradicts my acceptance of science with it’s flaws and limited scope – yours in the converse does do that. That’s why it’s so offensive to read about people adhere to an inferior notion act so superior about it, in case you were wondering.
OK answered it all point by point not so bad. Got pumped up and did it, so now back to work.
Hi Rafael, Thanks for writing back.
You write:
“Yes, you like that, you are not superior as you like to believe you are, and your desire for this prideful stance is the your motivation for your RELIGION of absolute God hatred/ignorance.”
I don’t believe I am superior to anyone…however you might want to check out your own attitude. I really can’t hate something I don’t believe in. I keep asking people to prove to me that the Christian God exists, in over forty years no one has been able to.
***
“The visceral nature in which you attack what I said shows off the “crazy fanatic” attitude when you belief system is called into question, just like you scoff at some fundamentalist for doing who presents the opposite view.”
You really need to keep from using personal attacks here dude. If I had a ‘crazy fanatic’ attitude I would be just like the fanatical Christian proselytizers that work on your side of the aisle. Yes, I do scoff at the fundamentalists, but only because they come up with the same argument all the time and you have to keep educating them over and over again. i.e.…No the Earth is not 6,000 years old, no Adam and Eve did not start our race of humans on this Earth, no there was not a universal flood 4,300 years ago that wiped out humanity, no God did not confuse the languages of man at Babylon a few hundred years after the flood; yes I have proof…just because you don’t believe it, makes it no less true.
***
“ Look at your post and read the wild assertions of I’m right because others agree with me, and your visceral method of attacking those who don’t adhere to your belief system. Pure irrational emotionalism, the same you proudly mock others for displaying.”
I’m sorry what ‘wild assertions’ are you referring to, and what ‘visceral attacks,’ and what ‘pure irrational emotionalism?’ Can we just keep on the subject here and stop the outbursts?
***
“You just prove what god says about the Heart of Man, it’s wicked because of it’s Prideful reluctance to except anything above himself in spiritual order or Truth.”
You must be thinking of someone else… I do not have a wicked heart…and I could accept a God that was proven to me. There are people like you and people like me…I need proofs of some supernatural spirit, or whatever you conceive of him to be, I won’t just believe because someone tells me to. You on the other hand accept what you read in the Bible and believe you minister that there is magic, angels, demons, supernatural phenomena, virgin birth, resurrection of the dead, and all the other baggage that goes with your faith.
You believe that a tribe of wandering goat herders was somehow blessed by the presence of a God that interfered with their day to day operations, and liked the smell of burning flesh, and who caused a Bible to be written that has a multitude of mistakes and conflicting verses.
***
“But like I said your agenda of see there’s No God blinds you to such information. No different than any other fanatic, but that Pride just doesn’t like that, oops proving god right again – gotta watch that, that artificial facade of no religion is going to crumple if you keep that up.”
I don’t even know how to answer the above except to say that I don’t have an artificial façade of anything.
***
“If you bother to study the latest String Theory Dimensional Time Travel you find out that all those so-called Laws fall apart under certain conditions.”
I am speaking of natural earth bound sciences and touchable and observable matter and materials and processes; not energy, force, and space time physics.
***
“And finally, your point abut wars and killings – yes that’s the old irresponsible human talking again. Just like Adam, when he was asked, Why did you Partake of the Fruit I told you not to Partake in, “Oh the wife she told me to”, then Eve why did you entice your Husband “Oh the serpent said to”, and Satan had nothing to say he couldn’t pass the buck on to anyone. But there you go, God did this or no He doesn’t exist so it’s people that believe in god that did this, no in truth it’s prideful people like you who don’t want to listen to God and follow His Word about not shedding blood, but they make up their own belief system so it excuses their behavior. The Soviet Union and China are examples of the atheistic versions of those religious slaughter houses. Oh that didn’t’ make it in your list, I wonder why? Get real and get off your high horse, you aren’t superior and you wanting to be is your problem.”
My point about wars and killing is that religion has been the single biggest driving force behind wars, massacres, and genocide on the Earth. In the 100 years war, Catholics and Protestants fought each other. In that fighting-in Germany alone-they brought the population down from 14 million to 8 million…and then the starvation and diseases started. The Catholic Church starts the inquisition and it spreads all over Europe. You could get sent to jail as late as the 19th century for ‘crimes’ against religion or God. Muslims want to kill everyone who does not accept their version of Allah, Christians in the US want religious laws on the books. We all know they want to take over science classes and teach that ‘God’ did it all and that there’s no need to explore any further.
Are you not clouded by your own biases?
“I don’t believe I am superior to anyone…however you might want to check out your own attitude. I really can’t hate something I don’t believe in. I keep asking people to prove to me that the Christian God exists, in over forty years no one has been able to.”
Because He can’t be observed by your finite methods you hold so dear, you have to reach Him on Faith, which you refute. So by your own doing you’re stuck God has no obligation to prove anything to you, you as His Creation do have an obligation to seek after Him. That’s the problem, you want your God to come running after you, because you’re just too prideful to seek Him. You lose in that deal. And yes you do feel you are superior to people who don’t buy into your belief system, you see it in your mocking tone and derision of people as unintelligent for not adhering to your belief system.
“You really need to keep from using personal attacks here dude. If I had a ‘crazy fanatic’ attitude I would be just like the fanatical Christian proselytizers that work on your side of the aisle. Yes, I do scoff at the fundamentalists, but only because they come up with the same argument all the time and you have to keep educating them over and over again. i.e.…No the Earth is not 6,000 years old, no Adam and Eve did not start our race of humans on this Earth, no there was not a universal flood 4,300 years ago that wiped out humanity, no God did not confuse the languages of man at Babylon a few hundred years after the flood; yes I have proof…just because you don’t believe it, makes it no less true.”
Oops touched a nerve, it bugs you to think of yourself as just another crazy religious fanatic doesn’t it. Because that’s where your sense of superiority comes from thinking you are above that, but if you examine your belief system and your staunch defense of it not matter what facts are discussed. You get to see that you want to irrationally hold on to the belief that there is No god more than anything else, without your criteria being met that God has to come prove Himself to you, which isn’t going to happen. You are His subject, not the other way around – so that’s what you have to get through your heart.
Well at least you admitted that you do have a superiority trip, because you can’t scoff at people you don’t feel superior to. And no you don’t have any proof of anything, you weren’t there and you don’t have all the answers and those things you said don’t prove anything. I already know the Earth is not 6, 000 years old, Adam and Eve were not the first iteration of humans, and the Flood was most likely a local flood, and the Tower of Babel was an historical event but nothing about it has to disprove God or anything about the Bible. You keep on throwing that stipulation in when there’s no basis for it, it’s an irrational adherence you have – if A and not B and Not C therefore D. You are just making that up, and when you can show this or that historically but someone comes along and shows you that this doesn’t disprove anything, your religious response to protect your belief system is shire resistance, not any pursuit of what was stated. None of what you want to knock down, the straw men you set up, disproves anything about God or the Bible. If there’s a discrepancy somewhere it’s with the people who wrote and interpreted the Bible. I live with God everyday, your desire to not want to except that He’s your God as well fuels your need to set up straw men and knock them down all day. It’s just a religious bias you have. If you were honest about it, you’d be posting stuff about how there is historical proof of God and events that may be these events listed in the Bible with some things interpreted differently. But since you do your best to present that there is no such thing, that is what you promote. But it’s just bias not a well thought out research that includes other legitimate points of view.
“I’m sorry what ‘wild assertions’ are you referring to, and what ‘visceral attacks,’ and what ‘pure irrational emotionalism?’ Can we just keep on the subject here and stop the outbursts?”
Why don’t like me pointing out your flaws and how similar you are to the other people you mock as irrational? If you just want me to no longer mention this and just acknowledge it as a given, I can. But this thing that you can’t be held to your own standards is just dishonest. Wild assertions such as if this didn’t happen the way some people say it did, then there is no God. So your just going to block that out and say no one can criticize the tenets of your religion?
“You must be thinking of someone else… I do not have a wicked heart…and I could accept a God that was proven to me. There are people like you and people like me…I need proofs of some supernatural spirit, or whatever you conceive of him to be, I won’t just believe because someone tells me to. You on the other hand accept what you read in the Bible and believe you minister that there is magic, angels, demons, supernatural phenomena, virgin birth, resurrection of the dead, and all the other baggage that goes with your faith.”
No I know whom I’m addressing, see this idea that God has to prove Himself to you is the exact same pride that consumed Lucifer. He doesn’t have to prove anything to you, you have to seek Him out and put your pride aside. And yes you are wicked, all of us are unless we submit to God who can make us whole with His Righteousness. And you accept the baggage that goes with your belief system, that somehow the Creator of All things has to get off His thrown in Heaven and come and do tricks in front of you as if you are someone deserving of such a thing. He Created everything and His Creation is all around you as people like you mess everything up, and of course that’s His Fault. You need to yourself straight, He’s going to move with or without you, so you have to get yourself inline or just except that you’ll live with the consequences of not doing it. But don’t mock Him and His People out of spite and sour grapes that you aren’t going to take spiritual responsibility for what you need to do.
“You believe that a tribe of wandering goat herders was somehow blessed by the presence of a God that interfered with their day to day operations, and liked the smell of burning flesh, and who caused a Bible to be written that has a multitude of mistakes and conflicting verses.”
And your wanting to believe otherwise isn’t valid either. You can’t prove anything one way or another, you need o make interpretations of what the Bible says then disprove those interpretations, that isn’t honest that’s your way of setting up a system where you are always shown to be right. I don’t have any finite proof of anything, so I take it on faith. You don’t either and you refuse to take it on faith. That’s the difference, I know God because He reveals Himself to me by the Faith I reach out to Him with. You can’t do that because you refuse faith at every turn, so you remain in darkness. That’s your problem. You can misquote things and misinterpret them all you want, that’s not proof of anything – it’s just your desire to not want to believe being couched as some egg head superiority trip, that’s all.
“I don’t even know how to answer the above except to say that I don’t have an artificial facade of anything.”
the reason that you can’t answer it is that you refuse to admit you do have an artificial facade, which in turn prevents you from knowing that your desire to not believe in God is simply an irrational decision that you want to hold on to. There could be or there couldn’t be in your way of looking at it, if you truly accepted Him on faith, you’d begin to find Him. Since you refuse to do so, you in a constant game of proving you made the right decision of not following after God on Faith, to yourself.
“I am speaking of natural earth bound sciences and touchable and observable matter and materials and processes; not energy, force, and space time physics.”
So you just admitted one of my points, to have your way of thinking you have to have a limited scope of what is just observable by human beings. So that limits all of existence quite a bit. And not just that, but God reigns over the Spiritual Heavens as well as the Physical plane, so since you want to limit yourself in scope so much, no wonder you are blind to God.
“My point about wars and killing is that religion has been the single biggest driving force behind wars, massacres, and genocide on the Earth. In the 100 years war, Catholics and Protestants fought each other. In that fighting-in Germany alone-they brought the population down from 14 million to 8 million…and then the starvation and diseases started. The Catholic Church starts the inquisition and it spreads all over Europe. You could get sent to jail as late as the 19th century for ‘crimes’ against religion or God. Muslims want to kill everyone who does not accept their version of Allah, Christians in the US want religious laws on the books. We all know they want to take over science classes and teach that ‘God’ did it all and that there’s no need to explore any further.”
You are completely off base, but this is a common rouse atheists throw out there – that if some Church does something then it was God doing it or whatever. People kill, war, and steal because they are evil and they won’t admit it, like you did in your post. They refuse to follow God and His Word, so they invent belief systems like yours to feel good about what they do as evil doers. Again you skirted the atheistic Red Chinese and Soviet Union in your list of murderous warmongers – for the second time even after I pointed it out to you once already. you just refuse to admit that your religion is the same and as much a fuel for the war and murder of other as any other belief system. And that shows your bias. And again you set up a straw man, we can include scientific observation within it’s scope and still believe in God, and accept that there are discrepancies in interpretation of the Bible without getting on some crusade to throw it all out if it doesn’t fit with your selected interpretation. If on the other hand, your set system tests are just a rouse for you to claim your irrational disbelief in God to be some kind of legitimate scientifically proven thing, then it’s just a fraud.
“Are you not clouded by your own biases?”
No, not at all. I read and research all kinds of data from all kinds of sources. I can evaluate scientific data as well as anyone. But I’m also not hampered by an irrational belief that there must not be a God, or if there is One He has to come down and do something to prove it to me. That makes me unbiased to evaluate any information and pursue knowledge knowing where all things started and where all things will end. It actually helps quite a bit. I at one point in my life was a unbeliever like you, or at least not fully aware of God in real life as I am now. Through Faith, I’ve walked a long road and discovered the wonder of an actual relationship with the real True God, as my Father, Jesus my Lord, and the Holy Spirit my Comforter and Teacher. Reading the word with the Holy Spirit teaching it to me makes all the difference. It’s not just some dry book of factoids, but a Live Voice of God showing you what he was communicating through those passages. I pray you will will reach out to the Holy Spirit by faith and ask Him to Teach you, too. He will if you ask him to sincerely, and truly ask in faith of things not seen. He is here and very warm in His presence, and He’s glad that I’m sharing this with you. Reach out to Him and He’ll answer. Oh and sorry for my sarcasm, I shouldn’t do that it’s unbecoming of a Christian, I’ll stop now. If the other posters can refrain from their mocking tone, then we can have a discussion, have a good day. Sunday as a matter fact.
Different Dave from the other one Raf, but I’ll play. First of all I’m not an atheist I’m agnostic because I believe it to be foolish for either side to claim they know everything. Also, to parade hell as you have been doing in front of men who in your world will endure eternal torment seems to be quite the Anti-Christ position no? Also, I do not deny the arrogance of some of the other posters, but you match or exceed them then you become them or something worse entirely.
Now, on the basis of my positions is a fundamental issue of finding reason and not simply reason but an overlying common goodness with which we can transcend our current human state. This means that I must question all things which in this case is a racial group of 8 people will go on to create new racial groups and a 6 billion plus population in a matter of a few thousand years. Also, Yahweh specifically says in Genesis 6 I believe that he will wipe out the entire earth, therefore it is not metaphorical as you claimed in earlier post.
Then, the common moral man must question the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God of love/justice that can end off an entire world save one small family of a racial group that he consistently favors. Also, Rafael have you read through the Psalms? If you have, then I am sure that you are aware of the fact that your God claims to enjoy dashing out infants brains against the rocks? These particular infants were of Babylonian descent but of course any Bible scholar would know these were not the only infants bled dry from Yahweh’s vengeance. Genocides occurred under his watch as did a massacre of a “peaceful and unsuspecting” town according to the Bible in Judges 18. So instead of flagellating the unbelievers, I think it best to weight what you truly believe.
My reasoning for this is simple. If we follow a God whose actions are quite common, petty jealousy, murder, and rampant destruction, then tell me how can humanity become something more than its current state? Also, consider that meek and benevolent Jesus will return as any dictator establishing an earthly realm and will stain the earth with bloodshed. Once again a heavenly King performing and earthly King’s common action. Curious to hear your thoughts Rafael as I was once in the Christian boat which I found led to a destination of rationalizations, immoralities, and weakening self-deceit.
Long comment I know, but I felt each statement made was truthful and helpful.
Hi again Rafael, thanks for your reply.
Lots of words here and lots of accusations thrown my way. I’m going to run all of your separate reply posts together and answer what I can in one long column to save time and formatting. From your way of attacking me I’m going to guess that you’re either a Baptist or Pentecostal, or at the very least an evangelical fundamentalist.
You write:
“you want your God to come running after you, because you’re just too prideful to seek Him. You lose in that deal. And yes you do feel you are superior to people who don’t buy into your belief system, you see it in your mocking tone and derision of people as unintelligent for not adhering to your belief system.”
Rafael, I do not feel superior to people of religion. On the contrary, I know a large number of them and I have respect for them. I do not have too much pride to seek a god out…I don’t believe one exists. The natural world doesn’t show me, or anyone else, any proof for a god. If you want to believe in one that’s fine with me, but if you want me to believe in one…I need proof. Not out of pride…out of not wanting to waste my time and energy on a non-existent being or belief system.
And:
“Oops touched a nerve, it bugs you to think of yourself as just another crazy religious fanatic doesn’t it. Because that’s where your sense of superiority comes from thinking you are above that,…”
Rafael, I’m not the religious fanatic here. I don’t have a sense of superiority. I do have a sense that many people are being misled.
And:
“You get to see that you want to irrationally hold on to the belief that there is No god more than anything…”
Rafael, to the contrary, the holding or belief that there is a big spirit floating somewhere up in space that watches and listens to every human on earth, and watches the sparrows fall is irrational.
And:
“Well at least you admitted that you do have a superiority trip, because you can’t scoff at people you don’t feel superior to. And no you don’t have any proof of anything, you weren’t there and you don’t have all the answers and those things you said don’t prove anything.”
Rafael, same answer about superiority. Court systems the world over can and do convict criminals on circumstantial evidence every day. One does not necessarily have to see an event to be able to figure it out. Science does this all the time, and although they are sometimes wrong—just like criminal courts are sometimes—they are mostly right. Also, the stuff I write about is not my opinion or my research, it is the work of mainline scientists…I happen to believe they are right.
And:
I already know the Earth is not 6, 000 years old, Adam and Eve were not the first iteration of humans, and the Flood was most likely a local flood, and the Tower of Babel was an historical event but nothing about it has to disprove God or anything about the Bible.”
Rafael, I strongly disagree with you on the above point. These stories are held by fundamentalists as God given truths. And the church (any Christian church) cannot just deny Adam and Eve as a mythical event; otherwise the myth of original sin falls apart. No Adam and Eve…no one to pin original sin and human fall from grace…and the need for redemption by Jesus…no longer exists.
And:
“None of what you want to knock down, the straw men you set up, disproves anything about God or the Bible. If there’s a discrepancy somewhere it’s with the people who wrote and interpreted the Bible.”
Rafael, what straw men are you talking about? Exactly my point about the discrepancies; God did not write, or cause to be written, that book. God by definition could not write or cause an imperfect volume of his discourse with humans, that has discrepancies, to be written and passed off as His word.
And:
“I live with God everyday, your desire to not want to except that He’s your God as well fuels your need to set up straw men and knock them down all day. It’s just a religious bias you have. If you were honest about it, you’d be posting stuff about how there is historical proof of God and events”
Rafael, what straw men? I have no religious bias…I have a bias against religion…that would be a secular bias. 🙂 I cannot honestly say there is historical proof of God. I do, contrary to your opinion, keep looking for some. There’s none out there that I can find.
And:
“But it’s just bias not a well thought out research that includes other legitimate points of view.”
Rafael, to me legitimate, well thought out research is done by scientists. There are two outlooks or points of view here. My view is there is no God, but I am open to any proof of one. Your view is that there is a God, but you are not open to contrary proof, and you do not let anything interfere with that view. I keep asking for proof.
And:
“Why don’t like me pointing out your flaws and how similar you are to the other people you mock as irrational?”
Rafael, you keep attacking me on more of a personal basis…you don’t seem to engage the thoughts and points put forth.
And:
But this thing that you can’t be held to your own standards is just dishonest. Wild assertions such as if this didn’t happen the way some people say it did, then there is no God. So your just going to block that out and say no one can criticize the tenets of your religion?”
Rafael, I don’t believe I have thrown out any wild assertions. My point about the Bible not being true actual ‘God driven scripture’ is real and sound criticism. If one cannot tell that the Bible is talking in allegory and description of events can be proven to be untrue that is a real bad thing for the Book.
And:
“And yes you are wicked, all of us are unless we submit to God who can make us whole with His Righteousness. And you accept the baggage that goes with your belief system, that somehow the Creator of All things has to get off His thrown in Heaven and come and do tricks in front of you as if you are someone deserving of such a thing”
Rafael, I repeat…I am not wicked, or evil…or even mean. I disagree with your world-view, but you notice I talk civilly to you, and am willing to argue with you without putting you down. I am not asking for a private audience with God…plenty of people out there do not believe in a god. Atheists and agnostics are the third largest “religion” if you will…2.1 billion Christians–1.5 billion Muslims–1.1 billion atheists…all the rest divided up among a few thousand other denominations. Whats up with sooo many different beliefs about the same God?
And:
“But don’t mock Him and His People out of spite and sour grapes that you aren’t going to take spiritual responsibility for what you need to do.”
Rafael, Baptist right? 🙂 What sour grapes? Spiritual responsibility is something I don’t have, as I am not spiritual.
And:
“You can’t prove anything one way or another, you need o make interpretations of what the Bible says then disprove those interpretations, that isn’t honest that’s your way of setting up a system where you are always shown to be right.”
Rafael, I personally can’t prove anything. I count on the universities and colleges and research institutes to keep me on track. You are disagreeing with the science…not me personally.
And:
“…it’s just your desire to not want to believe being couched as some egg head superiority trip, that’s all.”
Rafael, again with the superiority trip. No, no, no.
And:
“…prevents you from knowing that your desire to not believe in God is simply an irrational decision that you want to hold on to.”
Rafael, give me proof—that’s all I ask. It is Not irrational to not believe in a god. Believing in a god requires belief in magic and supernatural stuff.
And:
“So you just admitted one of my points, to have your way of thinking you have to have a limited scope of what is just observable by human beings. So that limits all of existence quite a bit. And not just that, but God reigns over the Spiritual Heavens as well as the Physical plane, so since you want to limit yourself in scope so much, no wonder you are blind to God.”
Rafael, I am now, and have been most of this whole entire blog, talking about things that can be seen and touched and known in a physical way. I do not concern myself with space time physics as I don’t have enough knowledge of the subject.
And:
“You are completely off base, but this is a common rouse atheists throw out there – that if some Church does something then it was God doing it or whatever. People kill, war, and steal because they are evil and they won’t admit it, like you did in your post. They refuse to follow God and His Word, so they invent belief systems like yours to feel good about what they do as evil doers.”
Rafael, when churches and religious sects are killing in the name of God, as they ALL have, down through time, that is the biggest clue that there is no god behind them. The history of religion on earth is miserable, and more than anything else it has brought discord, torture, death, and displacement of humanity. “If you don’t believe this-you are damned to hell, if you don’t believe that-you will suffer eternal damnation.” This view that religionists hang onto–that theirs is the only true way–is evil. And the evil is historically known and attested to.
And:
“Again you skirted the atheistic Red Chinese and Soviet Union in your list of murderous warmongers – for the second time even after I pointed it out to you once already. you just refuse to admit that your religion is the same and as much a fuel for the war and murder of other as any other belief system.”
Rafael, I left them out because we are talking of religious things. We know that Stalin killed twenty million or so of his own people and that the Chinese communist did pretty much the same thing in the forties in their original revolution, and later in the sixties in Mao’s Cultural Revolution. This is not religion working here; it is insane humans killing all the opposition. The hundred year war I was speaking of was actual murder of those (Catholics vs Protestant) that had a different view of God, a different theology. Catholics killed Protestants and Protestants killed Catholics. “You don’t worship God as I want you to and I will kill you.” This is a sure sign that there is no God operating on earth…or at least the Christian one.
And:
“And that shows your bias. And again you set up a straw man, we can include scientific observation within it’s scope and still believe in God, and accept that there are discrepancies in interpretation of the Bible without getting on some crusade to throw it all out if it doesn’t fit with your selected interpretation. If on the other hand, your set system tests are just a rouse for you to claim your irrational disbelief in God to be some kind of legitimate scientifically proven thing, then it’s just a fraud.”
Rafael, I refer you back to the Adam and Eve, original sin conundrum. There is no doubt at all among mainline scientists who work in the appropriate field that humanity was NOT started by a man and woman created out of the ether, Or dust, if you will, by a ethereal spirit called the Christian God, Yahweh, Elohim, Jehovah, or El Shaddah. We—that is all humans—are last in line to a primeval common ancestor…well, we are actually not the last, but close enough.
And:
“No, not at all. I read and research all kinds of data from all kinds of sources. I can evaluate scientific data as well as anyone. But I’m also not hampered by an irrational belief that there must not be a God, or if there is One He has to come down and do something to prove it to me.”
Rafael, NOT believing in a God that sets up humans for a great fall and a really tough life and the suffering that all humanity has gone through since the beginning of time is NOT irrational…to the contrary, to not believe is a sane choice. If God was real and acting like Christians say he is, and has, then he is not a god I would want to know…and I say that in all humility. All I want is proof.
And:
“That makes me unbiased to evaluate any information and pursue knowledge knowing where all things started and where all things will end”
Rafael, you are biased and it should be evident to you. You listen to science but reject what you want to because it doesn’t conform to your world-view. Just because you read some science subjects doesn’t make you unbiased, you have to research much more than that. I base my world-view on researching literally thousands of sources and reports and weigh them individually and together. Individually are they done by credentialed scientists, researchers, and universities? Are there more than one or two reports or papers on the subject? Is the science accepted by mainline journals and peer reviewed? Together, do the differing subjects make sense in a combined way? If report A says one thing on a subject and report B in another field says another; does the combined whole still make sense? Can report C and D and etc., etc. still make sense combined?
Evolution makes sense on individual subjects and with the whole of the subjects combined…
Darwin was right. The Hebrews were wrong…
twom
Hi Dave, thanks for chipping in.
Did it ever strike you that the God in the Old Testament was evil and murderous, and it took Paul in the New Testament to change His PR and make Him a God of love?
That bothers me, and again makes me doubt the religion of Christ.
And remember, if there was no Adam and Eve, there is no need for Jesus.
Word of me,
Thanks for the comments. It definitely has struck me on more than one occasion. Read through the Book of Judges for some truly eye opening scenarios. I know that you don’t believe in this God (I don’t either) but let’s assume for a second that he was. How scary would that be? Far worse than any dictator that’s existed that’s for sure.
Also don’t forget the way Jesus will come back to end the world. It certainly won’t be the meek and mild Jesus we have been told that he is. Agree 100% about the Paul and OT contradictions. What many people also fail to realize is the Pauline doctrines of faith alone and not weighing importance in works is a complete 180 from the teachings of Jesus.
On Adam and Eve, the sad truth to those events, if real, is that God chose the punishment for all men to have to suffer for the choices of 2. Also, add in to the equation that he waits a couple thousand years of him ordering genocide, thievery, and many other atrocities from the first five books of the Bible(especially Judges) all to rationalize a racial genealogy which leads to a Messiah to ease human suffering. All the while he caused an enormous deal of human suffering not to mention ended many men and women’s lives prematurely to sentence them to hell.
I find the issue in its entirety to be a far worse predicament for man should this God actually exist than if he were not real at all.
-David
Hi again Dave, thanks for your reply.
I’ve always wanted to use the phrase “It was a dark and stormy night” in my writing. 🙂