The Exodus Never Happened

Israeli archaeologist Ze’ev Herzog(1) provides a controversial  consensus view on the historicity of the Exodus and some other parts of the Hebrew myth.

In 1999, Herzog’s Haaretz weekly magazine cover page article “Deconstructing the walls of Jericho” attracted considerable public attention and debates. In this article Herzog claims that “the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort (Asherah) and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period (c920-900 BC ) of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai”  Wikipedia

If the whole Exodus story itself is unhistorical we can safely dismiss the other parts of the story [the parting of the Red Sea (Exodus 14:21), the manna from heaven (Exodus 16:15-35) and the supply of water from the Rock in Horeb (Exodus 17:7)] as mythical addition to an already fictitious account.

(1)Ze’ev Herzog (born 1941) is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Ze’ev Herzog is the director of The Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology since 2005.

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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

50 Responses to The Exodus Never Happened

  1. ?? says:

    what was his basis for these claims?

  2. thewordofme says:

    Hi ??, how are you?

    Well I can’t read the guys mind so I’m going to do some guessing here.

    First off he is a well known and respected Archaeologists working at one of Israel’s most respected universities, and holds the directorship of a well known Institute of Archaeology. He is not a ‘Crazy’

    He’s Jewish. So I would guess that his stand on these issues is not popular among his own people, so he must have a good basis for the beliefs.

    There has been controversy over whether the Exodus ever happened for years and years. Archaeologists have scoured the area for years looking for signs of a million plus people wandering in the area for forty years, and they haven’t found a clue one.

    I have heard of the theory that the monarchy was only a small tribal thing before, most recently in the book ‘The Bible Unearthed’ by: Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein.

    The story of God’s wife (or consort) has been around at least 2500 years; there is vague mention of it still in the Bible. Just search for Asherah in Google.

    And yes it is a historical thing that monotheism was finally adopted in the 900’s BC Read all that history in the Bible where the people were constantly getting in trouble for worshiping other gods.

    Not mentioned in my article above, but in Mr. Herzog’s, is that there is archaeological evidence that the walls of Jericho were already down about 200 to 300 years before Joshua was supposed to cause them to tumble down, and that the city of Ai was already a pile of rubble when Joshua was supposed to have attacked it.
    twom

  3. Philippa says:

    I think there are so many opinions of what happened that we will never know the truth for sure. Someone finds a piece of pottery in a wall and tries to make a story out of it for the pro or con side.

    Yes, Mr. Herzog is one of several scholars who say they’ve disproved the Exodus story. Others say there’s proof, e.g. http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/comments/Exodus.htm. I think it’s possible to find support for one’s position from respected scholars no matter what your position is.

    • Anonymous says:

      More like the truth will never be accepted….

    • Bill says:

      The link posted is misquoted as saying there is proof. In fact, what is says is that there currently is no proof but that doesn’t mean the supposed proof that it is false should be trusted.

  4. thewordofme says:

    Hi Philippa, thanks for your reply.

    One scholar dates the Exodus
    “According to 1 Kings 6, the Exodus occurred in the 480th year before Solomon began to build the First Temple in the 4th year of his reign. Kings also lists the years for each king of Judah down to the destruction of the Temple, which has been reckoned by various sources as anywhere from 380 years to 410 years (Seder Olam Rabbah, the traditional Jewish chronology) to 430 years (the cumulative reign of the kings of Judah according to 1 and 2 Kings). The destruction of the Temple can be dated on non-Biblical evidence to 587/586 BCE, and a simple arithmetical calculation — 586 + [duration of the Temple] + 480 — places the fourth year of Solomon’s reign somewhere between 1016 and 966 BCE, and the ***Exodus between 1496 and 1446 BCE.”***
    ***********************
    The scholar from your link dates the Exodus
    “The Exodus is dated by most of those who accept its veracity to ***about 1250 BCE.*** We know that for the previous few centuries, the period during which the Israelites are reported to have come down to Canaan from Egypt and to have become influential, there was indeed a rise in Semitic influence in Egypt, led by a group of western Semites known as the Hyksos, who were closely related to the Hebrews. At some point, ca. 1580 BCE, the native Egyptians rebelled against these foreigners, and this development can be taken to be reflected in the Bible’s description of the Pharaoh “who did not know Joseph.” As a result of this change, the Semites, including the Israelites, found themselves in the difficult position the Bible records, one which must have lasted for centuries. From this point of view, the story of the slavery and Exodus is perfectly plausible within the framework of Egyptian and Near Eastern history. Further, we have letters which describe the life of work gangs from Pharaonic Egypt and these seem to paint a picture very close to that of the biblical report.”

    Stuff from Egypt can be dated pretty accurately. The population of Egypt around this time was about 2 to 2 1/2 million souls. Moses was said to take 600,000 fighting age men, and there were wives and children and old folks and animals, so maybe a million or more Jews up and leave…talk about a declining tax base…those Egyptian tax collectors must have gone crazy.

    There are many time anachronisms in the Bible. Some of them the whole thing is written out in the Bible, and the times don’t match, and some of them appear when secular archaeology clearly disproves some Biblical times.

    Its an interesting journey I have undertaken. Thank you for taking part.

  5. charlie rosen says:

    THE CREATOR OF THIS SITE IS FULL OF BS. YOU DON.T HAVE A SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO DISPROVE BIBLICAL EVENTS. ZEEV HERZOG IS A MORON LIKE YOU WHO SAIS THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR EXODUS. THERE IS IF YOU GO BY THE CORRECT DATING OF EGYPTIAN HISTORY. YOURE A FOOL GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL

    • lou says:

      If you actually believe in our world history that has been altered ever since the beginning of time,something wrong with you.At a time when people were really naive and would believe anythng. Every planet and star plays a role in our existence.Astrologers and Scientist from before christianity had made discoveries which have been altered and use in our religious books.

      • the word of me says:

        Now who would alter world history since the beginning of time….14 +- billion years ago??

        You kinda’ lost me on the stars and planet stuff….what are you trying to say??

  6. thewordofme says:

    Hi Charlie Rosen, thanks for your reply.

    Why are you shouting? I run a nice establishment here and I don’t allow crazies to trample it.

    Mr. Herzog and I know more than you ever will about the Bible and the history of the Hebrews.

    You might as well start facing up to the facts, science is disproving the Biblical myths that have screwed up mankind for over 2000 years.

    If there were a Hell you would be right there along side me for your terrible temper and lack of control when talking about an important subject.

    Get a grip man.

    twom

    • Phil Van der Meeren says:

      500.000 israelites (some say up to 2 million) wandered the desert for 40 years. Let`s skip the impossible logistics of such an enterprise (even today ) and concentrate on one idea. The average lifespan of those people was most probably no longer than 40 to 45 years. About 400.000 must have died during that 40 year desert excursion. Where are the graves ? Where are the bones ? As far as I know, only remains from Bedouins have been unearthed. along caravan routes through the Negev. The areas fit for an encampment of half a million people in the Negev, are probably very limited.

      • thewordofme says:

        Hi Phil, thanks for writing.

        According to the Bible it was 600,000 men/warrior types, plus women and children, animals and “others” who left Egypt,

        Exodus 12:37-38 NIV
        37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.

        You are so right on the average age of death for people in those times; just another little bit of info to add up to the story being false. Archaeologists have been seriously looking for any evidence and none has ever been found.

        The Exodus, Adam and Eve, Noah’s flood, Tower of Babel, and many other stories from the Bible just fall apart when looked at in the light of the last hundred years of science. Christianity has based at least part of its popularity on how true the Bible is…but it isn’t true at all.

        twom

  7. Isaac says:

    Thank you so much for this wonderful article. If any fellow Jews wish to have more information then they could also read a book by an Orthodox Jewish scholar by the name of Kugel. His book is called How to Read the Bible. Kugel retired from Harvard some time back. And yes, the Exodus along with everything that you said is as you said it according to Kugel and other respected Jewish scholars. (By the way David did not write even 1 Psalm according to Kugel. There was no 12th Prophet- it was invented. There is much more. The story of Moses? Try looking up Sargon (sp) and you will find the same story but it is much older and belonging to another culture. There is much more.) Let us deal with the truth instead of hiding from it. Since when have we been afraid of the truth?

  8. thewordofme says:

    Hi Isaac, thanks for writing.

    Amen brother :-)

    Christians haven’t put all the evidence together yet, when they do…they’re in for a shock.

  9. Eric says:

    You say:
    You might as well start facing up to the facts, science is disproving the Biblical myths that have screwed up mankind for over 2000 years.

    You do have a nice website.

    There might be a lack of archeological findings, as we go further and further back; which will certainly bring into question the ancient writings. However if you understand the primary constructions of these tales, going further back than the Hebrew writings (OT) there is certainly “something” that is being communicated.
    When I was asked to describe the Bible (OT and NT) — I said that it is the same as a person on LDS who saw the first pebble of existence drop into the placid lake of consciousness and then began throwing everything they could at the canvas to endeavour to explain what they saw.
    Much of the Bible is not History.
    For example one the oldest books of the Bible, ..the book of Job, is a poem written by several authors over a period of time. What was the point, …as I wrote above.
    If you have read (meditatively) upon these writings, it becomes clear that something else is being communicated.
    If you have read St. Augustine, you will note that his view of the book of Genesis was that it was not a historical record.
    The Old Testament is just one book, and if you take some time our to read C.S. Lewis, you will discover that he had the same difficulties you are experiencing, and that many of us who earnestly were looking not for a History/Geographical/Scientifically verified God, but realizing that there is not physical God to be seen, we reached out into that world which is somewhere between the proverbial easle and the paint…
    One has to be blind not to see that there were actually people throughout the history of our Planet who have had a unique joining to this something that religious folks call GOD.
    To have met someone that cannot be seen or heard by us normal folks, and then to try and explain that, …comes through in so many ways…I have found that poetry is a good way to access what is beyond our visible. It seems to see be as with some music, that which our naked eye, even with a microscope or telescope, ..cannot.
    Personally I do not put my faith in the Bible, but in the God about which the Bible is drawing our attention to. It is not the only book, …for there are simply millions of books, music, poetry and such like and as with Shakespeare, there is this other character about it all that drew me to reach out.
    In reaching out …a lot, I eventually did find that there was someone there, and that this someone was really interested in letting me know that I was dearly loved.
    Oh yeah, if you want a really good read, I would suggest ‘The Everlasting Man’ by GK Chesterton, or CS. Lewis’ book ‘Miracles.

    Sincerely,
    Eric.

  10. Justin says:

    WOW watch this video on youtube to destroy you. It is called
    Eygptian Chronololgy and the Old Testement, the first video, peace out fool.

    • Katoikei says:

      Seeing as you did not post up a link, would you please summarize the essential points made in said video and give us all something a little more interesting to munch on than ‘destroy you’ and ‘peace out fool.’ ?

      • the word of me says:

        Hi Katoikei,

        Justin was here long ago and when we destroyed his faith in the Bible he left.

        twom

  11. Sadie says:

    The Exodus has been repeatedly proven false. There is evidence that the son of the Pharaoh who was supposedly killed as a child died well into Egyptian adulthood, by a blow to the back of the head. The Egyptians never used the Israelis to build their monuments, as they used serfs who lived in the area, and supplied them with food and shelter, along with a salary. Slaves were used in the house. Therefore, the whole idea is fanciful at the very least.

  12. the word of me says:

    Hello katoikei,

    There were sources listed above for the Exodus NOT happening. The internet is full of information on this and many other Biblical stories…just start googling.
    You will find if you search enough that most of the Old Testament is nothing but myths. There was no Adam and Eve, no Noah’s flood, no Tower of Babel, no Exodus, probably no Jesus, and no god. All these things can be proven by circumstantial evidence.
    The Bible is toast.

    Peace

    • Katoikei says:

      Google. I think I’ll wait for Sadie to reply with ‘scholarly sources, both agreeing and disagreeing with’ his/her point.

  13. Katoikei says:

    ‘Justin was here long ago and when we destroyed his faith in the Bible he left.’ – If by faith you mean some sort of blind trust that ignores everything else, then he’s good to be rid of it. If you are attempting to dissolve people’s ‘blind trust’ in a deity, then I suggest you have a closer look at what Christian mean by faith. Personally, my idea of faith is the inner telescope or microscope that I use to heart and see God. Many who are raised in cultures where that sort of inquiry is not encouraged tend to react as it this is somehow a weakness when it is in fact the top story. I recall mentioning this to an ardent opposer of Christians and he proceeded insulting and demeaning me for making the point, only further proving his ‘inability’ to explore that aspect of himself which is in us all. I trust you’ll consider reopening your mind to thinking of the bigger picture of what it means to flex one’s natural ability to inquire about God. You spend a lot of time resisting this, but if you spent as much time and effort in say a little prayer, you might be pleasantly surprised by your efforts.

  14. Katoikei says:

    ‘probably no Jesus, and no god.’ (you say)

    A wise man hesitates when he is uncertain of himself and I respect the ‘probably’.

    ‘The Bible is toast’ (you say)

    You sound a little like Justin. ;) It’s a pity you said this because now you’ve put a different tint on your wise word ‘probably’ If you became convinced that there is, then you’d have to have another look at the Bible and wonder to yourself what the truth claim was that was being made. I’ve read your reactions to Christian beliefs and they tend to be the typical sort of arguments that are easily debunked. Have you thought of joining a forum (say Theologyweb) and engaging others who are at your level and chatting to some of the Christians who are well studied on their beliefs. I can recommend a bloke by who goes by the alias ‘Adrift’, another would be ‘SeanD’ They have made considerable effort in studying the historical claims with regard to the life of and death of Jesus, once again I’d recommend you take some time out to engage Dr. Gary Habermas on the matter of the resurrection. He is very approachable and I am sure if you take back your former childish exchange ‘The Bible is toast’, and the attitude with undergirds it, you’d perhaps learn some. Oh, btw. it can be quite yummy toast, when you have the right brand of tea with it. LOL

  15. ian says:

    I was born and raised a Catholic. Went to Catholic grade and high school. Later I went to a Methodist church for a whle and then a baptist church. I am an amatuer historian and love to read about history. Even the Catholic Church teaches you to take the OT with a grain of salt, especially Genesis. If you truely look at the history of how the modern bible came into being there can be little doubt that a great portion of it is just mythos. I know that most of my Baptist friends believe that God himself came down and handed King James the Bible and told him that this is the way it was.
    Don’t get me wrong…I am not an aethesit or agnostic, I just don’t believe that God has revealed his true nature to us. I know that many aethesist look at the universe and say there just can’t be a God. I look at the universe and say, How can there not be a God?

    • Katoikei says:

      Hi Ian,
      You say:
      I am not an aethesit or agnostic, I just don’t believe that God has revealed his true nature to us. I know that many aethesist look at the universe and say there just can’t be a God. I look at the universe and say, How can there not be a God?

      > I’d definitely pursue the historical studies a bit more furiously, especially when it comes to the person of Jesus Christ.
      Two website are very useful in this study, perhaps three. 1. Bible and Culture with Prof. Ben Witherington III, 2. Palleobabble with Dr. Mike Heiser and 3. Larry Hurtado’s Blog with Dr. Larry Hurtado. If you’ve got cash to splash, I think you’ll find that books by Ben and Larry are well worth reading. (ie. The New Testament History – a narrative account by Prof. Witherington.) You can comment on these sites and there’s generally respectful and interesting return dialogue. Peace.

  16. the word of me says:

    Hi Ian, thanks for writing.

    You write:
    ” I am an amatuer historian and love to read about history. Even the Catholic Church teaches you to take the OT with a grain of salt, especially Genesis. If you truely look at the history of how the modern bible came into being there can be little doubt that a great portion of it is just mythos.”

    If you don’t follow science much you will be amazed at what has been disproven in the Bible.

    Fact: There was no Adam and Eve.
    Fact: There was no Noachian flood.
    Fact: There was no ‘Tower of Babel’
    Fact: There was no Exodus…and all the attendant ‘miracles’…crossing Red Sea, Manna from heaven, etc.
    Fact: All humans who’s ancestors are not recently from Africa carry Neanderthal genes/blood. This has TREMENDOUS implications for Christianity…actually all religions. There is no need to search for the ‘missing link’ anymore.

    In addition to all that above, its been known for some time that the Gospels were probably not written by those who’s name is on them. In other words, not eyewitness, and not apostles.

    No Adam and Eve…no need for a Jesus to cancel our ‘original sin’ I always thought that was a phony story anyway..I mean, come on, Human sacrifice to the gods…how Hollywood is that? :-)

    Talk about Jesus…in addition to not being needed because the story that Paul made up about original sin by Adam and Eve is not true…he was dead for 35 or 40 years before some anonymous people wrote of him and NO secular writer wrote of him in his supposed time. There are 4 different stories about his Resurrection by the 4 Gospel writers (that’s what happens when ALL of them are NOT eyewitnesses). Add to this that many Biblical scholars believe that Matthew and Luke copied much of Mark (Mark was the first writer).

    I think what one can take away from all this evidence is that the Bible is definitely NOT ‘inspired of God’ If you surf the net much you will find many people who have compiled list of anomalies and untruths in the book that pretty much puts the lie to Christianity and the Jews/Hebrews of the Old Testament.

    You write:
    “Don’t get me wrong…I am not an aethesit or agnostic, I just don’t believe that God has revealed his true nature to us. I know that many aethesist look at the universe and say there just can’t be a God. I look at the universe and say, How can there not be a God?”

    When you ‘look at the universe’ what is it that makes you think how can there not be a God??

    • Katoikei says:

      You gotta be smarter than Albert Einstein.

      ‘Einstein was then asked if he accepted the historical existence of Jesus, to which he replied, “Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.” ‘
      From: Albert Einstein’s religious views: Isaacson, Walter (2007). “Einstein and Faith” Time 169 (April 5): 47.

      • the word of me says:

        Hey Katoikei, how are you my friend?

        I hope you and yours had a good holiday and I wish you a prosperous New Year.

        You write:
        “You gotta be smarter than Albert Einstein.

        ‘Einstein was then asked if he accepted the historical existence of Jesus, to which he replied, “Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.” ‘
        From: Albert Einstein’s religious views: Isaacson, Walter (2007). “Einstein and Faith” Time 169 (April 5): 47.

        And here I thought the Jews did not recognize Jesus as the Saviour. :-)

        As regards the Gospels; I really doubt that they are what they say they are; I believe they are anonymous books by non-eyewitnesses.

        Did not the Jesus seminar kinda conclude that Jesus ‘may’ have existed, but he was purely human…not magical???

    • Katoikei says:

      ‘I think what one can take away from all this evidence is that the Bible is definitely NOT ‘inspired of God’ If you surf the net much you will find many people who have compiled list of anomalies and untruths in the book that pretty much puts the lie to Christianity and the Jews/Hebrews of the Old Testament.’ (the word of me)

      > This is a typical ‘all or nothing’ type of attitude towards knowledge. I agree, that we are learning more and more about our world, ourselves BUT there is much that remains unexplained. We are still stuck with the cause of causes. We may be smart enough to answer the Cosmological question, but when it comes to Cosmogony, we are as clueless as cats. It is this answer which is brought to us in subtle nuances in the Christian sacred texts and others. To ignore this is to deliberately blind ourselves to the facts that there is more going on than a superficial examination of the surface of a lake.

      Peace on yer in 2012.

      • the word of me says:

        Hello again Katoikei, thanks for reply.

        You write:
        “> This is a typical ‘all or nothing’ type of attitude towards knowledge. I agree, that we are learning more and more about our world, ourselves BUT there is much that remains unexplained. We are still stuck with the cause of causes. We may be smart enough to answer the Cosmological question, but when it comes to Cosmogony, we are as clueless as cats. It is this answer which is brought to us in subtle nuances in the Christian sacred texts and others. To ignore this is to deliberately blind ourselves to the facts that there is more going on than a superficial examination of the surface of a lake.

        I understand what you are saying here, but I disagree on much of all it implies.

        When I know that ‘some’ scientists have been saying for a hundred years, in some cases, that Homo-sapiens has been roaming the earth for many many more years than people of the Book would agree with, and that the many Homo species bones that have been found since the mid 1800’s were actually our predecessors, our relatives. Then recently we find out that scientists have used DNA/genomic’s in several different ways to find out that those ‘some’ scientists (archaeologists, Paleontologists, anthropologists, etc.), have been right all along.

        We now know that we humans at one time mated with ‘non-human’ Neanderthals, and that resulted in viable offspring

        This is peer reviewed science, not crackpots…the specimens and results are out there available to all to read and see (Smithsonian, NY Museum of Science). If the science is wrong it will be refuted, but I’ll bet it’s right.

        So to me (and many others) this is truth, this is ‘falsification’ of the Adam and Eve myth. Why should I be reticent about believing or stating my wholehearted belief?

        And of course there is the other stuff that is falsified so easily now. Maybe God won’t be falsified, but the Bible as an attestation of His, will be. We already understand that it is purely a work of man.

        You write:
        “Peace on yer in 2012.”

        Back at you friend.

  17. Katoikei says:

    You say:
    And here I thought the Jews did not recognize Jesus as the Saviour.

    > Albert Einstein probably didn’t go as far as that, but who knows what secret beliefs smart people hide in the secret places of their hearts. The point was that he had a) read the gospels and b) been very impressed by them. In other statements he went as far as to insist that the teachings of Jesus (and two others, I forget their names) be kept alive in our minds because of their value to mankind.

    You say:
    As regards the Gospels; I really doubt that they are what they say they are; I believe they are anonymous books by non-eyewitnesses.

    > This is certainly not a very strong argument. Granted there are disputes over authorship and it’s certain in some of the cases we cannot tell who wrote what when, but this is not the case with all the books. You’d probably be advised to do some study in this regard, if you want to escape your doubts. The sources I recommended, should go a long way towards providing you with a more scholarly position.

    You say:
    Did not the Jesus seminar kinda conclude that Jesus ‘may’ have existed, but he was purely human…not magical???

    > Yes. I don’t want to beat about the bush but if you do your homework on this one you should discover that they were extremely liberal and don’t represent the best scholarly opinions on the subject. If you dial up an argument that Infidel Guy had with Prof. Bart Ehrman (on You Tube) I think it won’t take too long to conclude that scholars who make such claims are generally on the fringe, bordering on the bizarre.

    I’d highly recommend (again) that you check out the websites of Professor Ben Witherington III (Bible and Culture – http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/ ), Dr. Mike Heiser (Paleobabble – http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/ ) and Dr. Larry Hurtado (Larry Hurtado’s Blog – http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/ ) add to that the research of Dr. Gary Habermas ( History, Philosophy, and Christian Apologetics: Specializing in Resurrection-of-Jesus Research http://www.garyhabermas.com/ ) Reading good scholarship (peer reviewed scholarship ) is generally a good way to go and the great part about these sites is that you can achieve a degree of dialogue, normally with a degree of respect that internet blogs run by wannabees seldom do.

    I really think you need to take some time out and do some serious reading. I spent years wasting my time in arguments with folks who are argumentative and have not done their homework. Back to the books. :)

    Thanks for the goodwill wishes.

    Peace

  18. Katoikei says:

    I wrote:
    > This is a typical ‘all or nothing’ type of attitude towards knowledge. I agree, that we are learning more and more about our world, ourselves BUT there is much that remains unexplained. We are still stuck with the cause of causes. We may be smart enough to answer the Cosmological question, but when it comes to Cosmogony, we are as clueless as cats. It is this answer which is brought to us in subtle nuances in the Christian sacred texts and others. To ignore this is to deliberately blind ourselves to the facts that there is more going on than a superficial examination of the surface of a lake.

    You say:
    I understand what you are saying here, but I disagree on much of all it implies.

    > You do?

    You wrote:
    When I know that ‘some’ scientists have been saying for a hundred years, in some cases, that Homo-sapiens has been roaming the earth for many many more years than people of the Book would agree with, and that the many Homo species bones that have been found since the mid 1800′s were actually our predecessors, our relatives. Then recently we find out that scientists have used DNA/genomic’s in several different ways to find out that those ‘some’ scientists (archaeologists, Paleontologists, anthropologists, etc.), have been right all along.

    > Some? Many! Many of them are also Christians. I used to be a YEC and was leaning towards Intelligent Design. Read my blog: ‘faith unravels’ – http://aerycksmusic.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/faith-unravels/ In particular the links below the rabbit from Alice and Wonderland. Whereas many of my colleagues have hung tight with Creationism and Intelligent Design, I’ve been gradually making strides towards a more scientifically integrated system of beliefs. I could write ton of stuff about this, but if you go through my blog ‘Blue Django’ (along with my passion – Music) you’ll discover that I’ve come from a very conservative start to a far more liberal position than most. It’s basically far too much to cover in a reply on your blog. If I did that you’d have two blogs in one. :)

    You say:
    We now know that we humans at one time mated with ‘non-human’ Neanderthals, and that resulted in viable offspring

    > Please provide your source. (direct link and quotation)

    You say:
    This is peer reviewed science, not crackpots…the specimens and results are out there available to all to read and see (Smithsonian, NY Museum of Science). If the science is wrong it will be refuted, but I’ll bet it’s right.

    > Please provide the source. (direct link and quotation)

    You say:
    So to me (and many others) this is truth, this is ‘falsification’ of the Adam and Eve myth. Why should I be reticent about believing or stating my wholehearted belief?

    > I understand the ‘either or’ approach to knowledge and wonder if you did understand what I wrote above. I could spend hours engaged in a discussion with you about this, but I think my short answer will be better. The Bible is not that sort of book. (If you really want to get to grips with some great resources, visit The Faraday Institute of Science and Religion. – http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/faraday/index.php – check the Multimedia section. Simply tons of great lectures and Q & A segments. )

    You say:
    And of course there is the other stuff that is falsified so easily now. Maybe God won’t be falsified, but the Bible as an attestation of His, will be. We already understand that it is purely a work of man.

    > I’ve said this before, but Moses was not a Physicist! etc, etc, etc. The Bible is not that sort of book. Peace.

  19. Pingback: ‘faith unravels’ ? | Blue Django

  20. Katoikei says:

    The Word of Me, I see that an earlier comment by ‘Eric’ (that’s me) expands upon my simple phrase: ‘The Bible is not that sort of book’

    Here it is. I think I pretty much stand by these ideas, though I might have changed since October 2009 :)

    ——————–

    You say:
    You might as well start facing up to the facts, science is disproving the Biblical myths that have screwed up mankind for over 2000 years.

    >You do have a nice website.

    There might be a lack of archeological findings, as we go further and further back; which will certainly bring into question the ancient writings. However if you understand the primary constructions of these tales, going further back than the Hebrew writings (OT) there is certainly “something” that is being communicated.
    When I was asked to describe the Bible (OT and NT) — I said that it is the same as a person on LDS who saw the first pebble of existence drop into the placid lake of consciousness and then began throwing everything they could at the canvas to endeavour to explain what they saw.
    Much of the Bible is not History.
    For example one the oldest books of the Bible, ..the book of Job, is a poem written by several authors over a period of time. What was the point, …as I wrote above.
    If you have read (meditatively) upon these writings, it becomes clear that something else is being communicated.
    If you have read St. Augustine, you will note that his view of the book of Genesis was that it was not a historical record.
    The Old Testament is just one book, and if you take some time our to read C.S. Lewis, you will discover that he had the same difficulties you are experiencing, and that many of us who earnestly were looking not for a History/Geographical/Scientifically verified God, but realizing that there is not physical God to be seen, we reached out into that world which is somewhere between the proverbial easle and the paint…
    One has to be blind not to see that there were actually people throughout the history of our Planet who have had a unique joining to this something that religious folks call GOD.
    To have met someone that cannot be seen or heard by us normal folks, and then to try and explain that, …comes through in so many ways…I have found that poetry is a good way to access what is beyond our visible. It seems to see be as with some music, that which our naked eye, even with a microscope or telescope, ..cannot.
    Personally I do not put my faith in the Bible, but in the God about which the Bible is drawing our attention to. It is not the only book, …for there are simply millions of books, music, poetry and such like and as with Shakespeare, there is this other character about it all that drew me to reach out.
    In reaching out …a lot, I eventually did find that there was someone there, and that this someone was really interested in letting me know that I was dearly loved.
    Oh yeah, if you want a really good read, I would suggest ‘The Everlasting Man’ by GK Chesterton, or CS. Lewis’ book ‘Miracles.

    Sincerely,
    Eric.

    ———————-

    http://aerycksmusic.wordpress.com (Blue Django)

  21. Blue Django says:

    Back on the subject of archaeology and the Old Testament, I thought this blog which I was directed to because of reading Dr. Mike Heiser’s blog (Paleobabble) might be one where you can engage in some exchanges and thereby improve and update your knowledge of current digs, finds etc. — http://blog.bibleplaces.com/search/label/Exodus-Conquest (check out the whole blog as the author is a day-to-day blogger and there’s a ton of stuff to catch up.)

    I’m not a big archaeology fan ( ie. what I call the dry sciences ie. Geography, History and Archaeology, Geology and Geophysics etc. though I think I’m getting into History (after hating it at school) because of Prof. Ben Witherington’s excellent book NT History – a narrative account – http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Testament-History-Narrative-Account/dp/0801022932 – Seriously, you should read it, as it will help you with your historical investigation of Jesus – I mean quoting J-Seminar as a source – You know that does show a serious deficiency!!! :) ) as my primary area of interest is in particular philosophy (though I was stretched too much in the discipline and lost the plot, I’m working on understanding Dr. M. Sudduth – http://www.sfsu.edu/~phlsphr/?page=michael_sudduth and Prof. Alvin Plantinga – http://philosophy.nd.edu/people/all/profiles/plantinga-alvin/ though I’ve read others and have a pretty loose approach to this ), particular theological studies (as you probably know from reading ‘faith unravels’ – linked in an earlier comment – and some anthropology and sociology (though, I’m pretty much a novice here, but it certainly a lot of fun to be 54 and still cramming information into my brain.). I am also very interested in Psychology, Psychiatry, Neuroscience (though out of my depth as I have no post-school training and have learned all I know from reading and chatting, and that amounts to a double-zero! :) )
    There’s so much that I have to read, that I don’t even have time for this sort of thing. But, it’s still enjoyable when one finds a fellow seeker.
    Peace,
    Eric / Katoikei

  22. I believe! says:

    Of course the Bible is 100% accurate. The scholars(/) who say these stories are myths, believe in the Theory of Uniformity. That is, the world as we see it has always been been in this particular form. Throw out the Theory and believe in Continental Drift. Then all of the Old Testament stories can be believed.

  23. the word of me says:

    We know that continental drift happens…we can tell you approximately where the continents were back millions of years ago. We know that the Indian (India) sub-continent used to be part of Africa broke away (perhaps 200 million years ago) and drifted to its present position about 50 million years ago causing the Himalayas to form.

    Continental drift in no way effects the Biblical myths. The Bible is the work of goat herders and they are laughing in their graves at the poor souls who believed their crap stories.

    The stories in Genesis and exodus are totally disproven by science. Much of the rest of the Bible is under suspicion.

  24. Blue Django says:

    You say:

    The Bible is the work of goat herders and they are laughing in their graves at the poor souls who believed their crap stories.

    The stories in Genesis and exodus are totally disproven by science. Much of the rest of the Bible is under suspicion.

    > You see kid (and I’m doing this because you have not really made the effort to move outside of your uniformed position) and here’s a repeat for you ‘It’s not that sort of book/s’
    Now be a good lad and go and do some study and come back in a year or two when you have and make some informed posts.

    Goodbye.

  25. the word of me says:

    Hello again Blue Django, thanks for writing.

    There is a whole bunch of people (evangelical fundamentalists…you know, the Baptist, the Pentecostals, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc) out there that believes the Bible is the literal unadorned truth. They believe that God made the earth and all that’s in it in 6 days about 6,000 years ago. They still believe that there was an Adam and Eve, a world-wide flood, an Exodus out of Egypt, the crossing of the Red Sea and such bull.

    Well science has disproven all those stories in Genesis and Exodus. I have done the studying, but it appears you haven’t. There is no controversy about this except in the minds of some religious people…not science.

    I have not written about anything on this blog that wasn’t true, whereas the people who respond to me keep repeating the lies that their vocal leaders lay out.

    Perhaps you could go out and search for the truth…its not hard to find on the internet.

    Peace.

  26. Blue Django says:

    You say :
    Hello again Blue Django, thanks for writing.

    > I don’t really have time to play around on your anti-religious blog, but here goes.

    You say:
    There is a whole bunch of people (evangelical fundamentalists…you know, the Baptist, the Pentecostals, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc) out there that believes the Bible is the literal unadorned truth.

    > Studying helps correct this.

    You say:
    They believe that God made the earth and all that’s in it in 6 days about 6,000 years ago. They still believe that there was an Adam and Eve, a world-wide flood, an Exodus out of Egypt, the crossing of the Red Sea and such bull.

    > Seriously, the category you keep bashing will eventually sort out their ideas. Mocking and bashing seldom if ever helps to educate people. Our mutual friend (your guru – Richard Dawkins) found out the hard way, when his own unbelieving friends told him off. Kindness, goes a long way.

    You say:
    Well science has disproven all those stories in Genesis and Exodus. I have done the studying, but it appears you haven’t. There is no controversy about this except in the minds of some religious people…not science.

    > More assumptions.

    You say:
    I have not written about anything on this blog that wasn’t true, whereas the people who respond to me keep repeating the lies that their vocal leaders lay out.

    > True or not, it’s not what you write but it’s the nasty, angry and hateful words about the beliefs of others which reveal a bad attitude. Sort that out and then concentrate on the truth and you’ll have a winner.

    You say:
    Perhaps you could go out and search for the truth…its not hard to find on the internet.

    > That’s probably the most contrary thing you’ve ever said. If you want truth, the last place to look for it, is on the Internet and especially on your blog.

    You say:
    Peace.

    > You should try spreading a little of it around instead of all the hateful and inflammatory comments.

    Goodbye.

  27. the word of me says:

    Hello Blue Django,

    You write:
    “True or not, it’s not what you write but it’s the nasty, angry and hateful words about the beliefs of others which reveal a bad attitude. Sort that out and then concentrate on the truth and you’ll have a winner.”

    And:

    “You should try spreading a little of it around instead of all the hateful and inflammatory comments.”

    Perhaps you can point out to me where I wrote nasty, angry, hateful, and inflammatory things on my blog. I have spoken nothing but the truth.

    • Blue Django says:

      Now you want to play blind guy at the railroad track.

      Let’s work for peace and understanding and not the sort of anti-religious (Christian, Jewish and Muslim) stuff you did in the past. I’m confident you’re going to do an excellent job of spreading peace, goodwill and kindness to all humans, no matter how ape-like-our-ancestors might have been.

      Living truth.
      Peace,
      BD.

  28. the word of me says:

    Hi Blue Django, how are you?

    You write:
    “Let’s work for peace and understanding and not the sort of anti-religious (Christian, Jewish and Muslim) stuff you did in the past. I’m confident you’re going to do an excellent job of spreading peace, goodwill and kindness to all humans, no matter how ape-like-our-ancestors might have been.”

    I’m sorry I don’t meet your expectations Mr. Django. I will however continue to expose the actual truth about religions. Just think of all the human blood that has been shed in the name of religion. Just think of all those Muslims wanting to kill for really stupid reasons and think of the horrific treatment they dish out to their women and female children.

    Think of the horror of being born HIV positive because a stupid evil Pope tells his flock not to use condoms and condemns the use of any birth control thereby being responsible for world overpopulation and misery.

    Can’t think of anything the Jews are doing lately…well wait a minute…aren’t they causing misery for the Palestinians by stealing their land…saying their God gave it to them five or six thousand years ago. I would sure like to see that title.

    Do you have a problem knowing that your long-ago ancestor was an upright walking ape-man?

  29. Marshall Gordon says:

    You seem to be the ape man, my friend. Intellectually, at least.

    Think of all the human blood that has been shed by atheist regimes, like Stalinist Russia or Communist North Korea or Communist China.

    And Israel was created by the UN in 1948.

    • the word of me says:

      Hi Marshall Gordon,

      I generally try to not insult people when I ‘talk’ to them here.

      You forgot Pol Pot in Cambodia. Atheism did not make them murderers, being insane and sociopaths did.

      Also you might want to remember the millions killed in the name of Christianity in the Dark and Middle Ages as the sect was consolidating its powers. ‘Suffer not a witch to live’… the churches took that literally centuries ago.

      I’m told that the Christians, Jews, and Muslims share the same God. What was God thinking when he allowed his followers to fly those airplanes into the World Trade Center?

      I did know about Israel…have for about 40 years.

  30. drsuperstition says:

    The bible is a collection of regional folklore – borrowed without interest.

    If you like the flood myth, you will love Gilgamesh Tablet 11.

    If you like the second giving of the law, you will love the Code of Hammurabi.

    If you like the 10 commandments, you will love Spell 125 from the Egyptian Book of the dead.

    All borrowed – with absolutely no interest and very little attention paid.

  31. diego says:

    Wow, I’ve read the comments here pro and com mostly con. There is much disgust for Christianity with good reason. However I would say that sometimes children misrepresent parents. Also I would add that yes there is a lot of the bible that has been seen as borrowed to say the least ( much of which is unbeknown to most Christians). While in reality we’ve missed the concept that all truth is parallel not to mention the fact that wouldn’t truth be revealed in history way before the Hebrews came along. Much of science has changed because we’ve learned better and the old stuff that’s proven true is kept and added to. How do we think the bible would be different. Because we’re all learning albeit in different areas; emotions, science, health, and yes GOD. just my .02 live in peace enjoy love.

    • the word of me says:

      Well diego, I have come to the conclusion, after probably 7 years of intense study, that the whole Christian thing is just a bunch of myths.

      Most of the Old Testament is proven to be mythical pious foundational stories to establish a ‘priesthood’ and control of a unruly group of people.

      The whole modern thing about God being a ‘God of Love is a shame. The OT God is probably the most evil character ever portrayed in a religious book. But, when you consider it is totally a work of men only (no god involved), you can come to understand.

      The thing that broke the spell for me was the realization and proof that the Genesis stories were ALL fictional. Mainly that there was really NO Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Bible, and this is provable.

      Bottom line of this fact is that there was NO ‘Original Sin’, no fall from grace an therefore NO need of a Jesus to die as a human sacrifice (how human is this story) on the cross to expiate imaginary sin.

      It just belies the imagination, and I can only conclude that it is a made up history.

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