Science, Church, Death by Religion, Islam, Catholics

I welcome back a debating opponent (friendly) We have been in discussion off and on for a couple years.  He is Catholic and I generally come down hard on them (fundamentalists also)

Hi quickbeamoffangorn,

I didn’t know you were gone, but welcome back.  I have missed you and your intelligent replies. I hope all is well with you and yours. 🙂

You write:
“Just remember that the church gave more financial aid and social support to science than any other and like all other institutions combined over the past 6 centuries.
And you wouldn’t even have the scientific method without Franciscan monk Roger Bacon & Bishop Robert Grosseteste of Lincoln.”

I know and understand that the Catholic Church has supported science for many years and that they have many people of the cloth involved in science. I commend them for that (not that my commendation would mean anything to them).  I would however dispute that they have given more than anyone else combined, unless you mean just other religious sects combined.

You write:
“Your wasting your time attempting to undermind the Bible, when its the interpretation of the Christian Fundementalist that’s mistaken.”

I agree wholeheartedly that the Fundamentalists interpretation of a literal Bible is wrong.  I am really not trying to undermine the Bible…all I do is point out all the discrepancies and misinformation that is already there. It undermines its own authority without my help.  Just found one today…seems Mark and John can’t agree on what day Jesus died…did he die on Passover or on the day of preparation for Passover?

You write:
“That’s a kinard with not a shread of evidence.”  Your reply to my assertion that many thousands or millions of Christians were killing each other in the early days.

“As someone from the British Isles you should know how good your people have been historically at spinning history. Being Irish-American I know these things ;>)”

Going to these sites below will fill you in on the early days of Christian wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion
Don’t worry that they’re from Wikipedia; they are right on this, and the facts can be checked against other websites…

Religion today is every bit as violent and dangerous as it was in the Dark and Middle-Ages. Within the last fifteen to twenty years the following religious conflicts have killed millions of people.

Palestine–Jews vs. Muslims
Balkans-Orthodox Serbians vs. Catholic Croatians & Orthodox Serbians vs. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims
Northern Ireland-Protestants vs. Catholic
Kashmir-Muslims vs. Hindus
Sudan-Muslims vs. Christians and Animists
Nigeria-Muslims vs. Christians
Ethiopia and Eritrea-Muslims vs. Christians
Sri-Lanka-Sinhalese Buddhists vs. Tamil Hindus
Indonesia-Muslims vs. Timorese Christians
Caucuses-Russian Orthodox vs. Chechen Muslims and Muslim Azerbaijanis vs. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians
India vs. Pakistan-Muslim vs. Hindu-they have already fought 3 wars against each other and now both of these countries have nuclear weapons.
This list above is taken from a earlier post of mine.

I am not from the British Isles…my ancestors were.  I was born and live in the States.

You write:
“The Black Legend still lives and it seems to fit your predisposed outlook. The population of all of Europe in 650 A.D. was 6 million. The church didn’t even have an army at the time.”

I don’t think they needed an army seeing as how they were their own source of laws and always had the local gendarmes to order about.

Population Estimates (in millions) at specified times 500-1450

AREA 500 650 1000 1340 1450

  1. Greece/Balkans        5       3       5       6      4.5
  1. Italy                 4       2.5     5       10     7.3
  1. Spain/Portugal        4       3.5     7       9      7

Total – South 13 9       17 25 19

France/Low countries  5       3       6       19     12

  1. British Isles         0.5     0.5     2       5      3
  1. Germany/Scandinavia   3.5     2       4       11.5   7.3

Total – West/Central 9 5.5     12 35.5 22.5

  1. 5       3

—Russia                             6       8      6

—Poland/Lithuania                   2       3      2

  1. Hungary               0.5     0.5     1.5     2      1.5

Total -East 5.5 3.5     9.5 13 9.3

TOTAL EUROPE 27.5 18 38.5 73.5 50

Sorry the list did not translate well, just pick the year on top by position and follow down by position (left to right, column one, two, three, four, five)

The information above is taken from Josiah C. Russell, “Population in Europe:, in Carlo M. Cipolla, ed., The Fontana Economic History of Europe, Vol. I: The Middle Ages, (Glasgow : Collins/Fontana, 1972), pp 25-71  http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.html

You write:
“I’d also think a lot more about how Islam is going to control your intellectual property since most of secular western Europe has lost the literal will to live. Within 35 years there will not be any British, French, Spanish, German, Italian Russia or Polish left in the world. Your breading your selves into no-existence.”

Yes that is a real possibility. England and Ireland are already headed down that road.  Seems there will be Heresy laws on the books soon. Russia is a little more problematical…I don’t see them falling for the Muslim shtick anytime soon.  The actual problem is that the Europeans are not breeding and the Muslims are reproducing in very large numbers.  In the varied countries they live in they will be able to put their own candidates in political offices before long. In England they already are able to influence local and some national laws (i.e. heresy)

You write:
“But your evil arch enemy the Catholic church has already move to the global south where they still believe in life and we’ll rebuild western civilization AGAIN. And they’ll be someone like you in 300 years blaming the Catholic church on the fall of modern civilization.”

I don’t consider the Catholic Church my arch enemy…I pretty much blame them all for the modern day problems.  At the present time I consider Islam the NO.1 arch enemy of the whole world. We are probably seeing the King of the North and the King of the South lining up for the next 10 to 20 years. If that happens, as it almost seems sure to, once again religion will be responsible for millions/billions of deaths.

Will not blame just the Catholic Church…But all religions in general.

I’ve already taken the purple pill.  🙂

Good to “talk” to you again qboa.

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Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

One Response to Science, Church, Death by Religion, Islam, Catholics

  1. “Just found one today…seems Mark and John can’t agree on what day Jesus died…did he die on Passover or on the day of preparation for Passover?”

    Well then you would be using the bible with a similar method to your fundamentalist friends. The Bible’s purpose is to pass on a compact MORAL message. The Gospel of John’s main point isn’t historically accurate date’s of Christ’s death. If you focus on that you’ve missed the main point. St. John is demonstrating that Christ dies on the cross at the same time as the passover lambs are sacrificed in the temple. Therefore Christ is the true lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. The other three Gospel authors show the last supper before Christ dies on the cross and St. John has it prior to to demonstrate a theological point not a historical one. Given he likely wrote his Gospel 40 plus years after the others.he was aware of the difference. For me that demonstrates integrity of the message.

    “Going to these sites below will fill you in on the early days of Christian wars”

    Sorry your likes didn’t have anything prior to the 16th century, so I’ll take it that you don’t mean “early ages of the church”. To be early would mean 30 A.D. up through 650 A.D. Middle would be 650 to 1500 A.D.

    Your speaking about the reformation age and that is much more driven by kings and emperors who desired control, the popes, bishops and reverends. While those kings and emperors were Christian at least in name it would be unfair to claim that its primarily their religious faith that caused the war. If your going to use that as a standard, then I’ll have to impose Stalin, Mao and a few other atheist to your list for modern mass murders.

    I’ll give you most of the past 15 year conflicts on religion. Except Russia which stats show only 2% actually practice their faith so its really a different religious group called atheist in that conflict.

    On your population estimates your making an assumption I can’t let go. The date we’re dealing with is 650 A.D. The conversion of Britian was just starting,Germany didn’t start until 725 A.D., Harald Bluetooth -965 was the start of Christianity in Scandinavia. Greece& Balkans were controlled by the Byzantine Emperors and they didn’t follow the popes.Russia was starting about mid 850A.D. as well. So your number is back down to about 10 million at best. And Rome from 500 A.D. to 600 A.D. with a very short time frame under Emperor Justinian was controlled by pagans not the pope. So I don’t see how your point stands. I think your reading back 12th century papal political power back 5 centuries when it didn’t exist.

    “Russia is a little more problematical…I don’t see them falling for the Muslim shtick anytime soon”

    You’d be mistaken, 40% of the Russian army will be Muslim by 2025.

    “The actual problem is that the Europeans are not breeding and the Muslims are reproducing in very large numbers.”

    Exactly my point. I didn’t know you were in the states. Well in this country we’ll have 50 million by 2045, so look at Europe and we’ll be there in about 30 years.

    “We are probably seeing the King of the North and the King of the South lining up for the next 10 to 20 years. If that happens, as it almost seems sure to, once again religion will be responsible for millions/billions of deaths ”

    King of the North & King of the South – so now your using scripture(which you claim is unreliable and can’t be taken literally) and use the Book of revelations as factual to disprove it? SAY AGAIN;>)

    Given the increase in atheist in this country you’ll have no one to blame but the secular humanist for the mess. Again Catholicism will clean up after you just as we did after Imperial Rome.

    Purple ? Well I like Jimmy Hendricks on occasions as well. Enjoy the “haze”;>)

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