Dialogue with Religion

Hello again quickbeamoffangorn,

Nice “talking” with you again.

You write:
“…The Bible’s purpose is to pass on a compact MORAL message…”
“…The Gospel of John’s main point isn’t historically accurate date’s of Christ’s death. If you focus on that you’ve missed the main point. St. John is demonstrating that Christ dies on the cross at the same time as the passover lambs are sacrificed in the temple. Therefore Christ is the true lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. The other three Gospel authors show the last supper before Christ dies on the cross and St. John has it prior to to demonstrate a theological point not a historical one…”

So that’s your theory? When I read stories I expect a certain continuity of scene.  For one person to say one thing and another to say something that totally contradicts the first, makes me wonder about the “truthiness” of what is being written. I expect Christians to take certain liberties with explanation or apologetics with awkward scriptures, but there is a line….:-)

You write:
“…For me that demonstrates integrity of the message….”

My, my.

You write:
“Sorry your likes didn’t have anything prior to the 16th century, so I’ll take it that you don’t mean “early ages of the church”. To be early would mean 30 A.D. up through 650 A.D. Middle would be 650 to 1500 A.D.”

Below is from an earlier post of mine:

“William Lecky wrote in 1877 in his book, A History of European Morals

“If we consider the actual history of the Church since Constantine, we shall find no justification for the popular theory that beneath its influence the narrow spirit of patriotism faded into a wide and cosmopolitan philanthropy. A real though somewhat languid feeling of universal brotherhood had already been created in the world by the universality of the Roman Empire.

In the new faith the range of genuine sympathy was strictly limited by the creed. According to popular belief, all who differed from the teaching of the orthodox lived under the hatred of the Almighty and were destined after death for an eternity of anguish … The eighty or ninety sects into which Christianity speedily divided, hated one another with the intensity that extorted the wonder of Julian and the ridicule of the pagans in Alexandria, and the fierce riots and persecution that hatred produced appeared in every page of ecclesiastical history.

The Donatists, having separated from the orthodox simply on the question of the validity of the consecration of a certain bishop, declared that all who adopted the orthodox view must be damned, refused to perform their rites in orthodox churches which they had seized till they had burnt the altar and scraped the wood, beat multitudes to death with clubs, blinded others by anointing their eyes with lime, filled Africa, during nearly two centuries, with war and desolation, and contributed largely to its final ruin.

The childish almost unintelligible quarrels between the Homoiousians and the Homoousians … filled the world with riot and hatred. The Catholics tell … how three thousand people perished in the riots that convulsed Constantinople when the Arian bishop Macedonius superseded the Athanasian Paul … In Ephesus, during the contest between St. Cyril and the Nestorians, the cathedral itself was the theater of a fierce and bloody conflict … Later, when the monophysite controversy was at its height, the palace of the emperor at Constantinople was blockaded, the churches were besieged, and the streets commanded by furious bands of contending monks.”

Regarding populations and histories in early Europe; I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject and I will study the subjects much more.

Russia is a little more problematical…I don’t see them falling for the Muslim shtick anytime soon”

You answer:
“You’d be mistaken, 40% of the Russian army will be Muslim by 2025.”

Knowing Russia’s past problems with Muslim terrorists, I would like to see your source on this matter. The Russian government I know is really secular and puts up with no religious hi-jinks.

You write:
“King of the North & King of the South – so now your using scripture(which you claim is unreliable and can’t be taken literally) and use the Book of revelations as factual to disprove it? SAY AGAIN;>)”

Sometimes I like to take currant world events and filter them through scriptures from the Bible to see how they fit. Keeps my mind awake and agile. 🙂

You write:
“Given the increase in atheist in this country you’ll have no one to blame but the secular humanist for the mess. Again Catholicism will clean up after you just as we did after Imperial Rome.”

Hey, secular humanists and atheists and non-believers account for less than 20% of the population here…can’t blame them for the messes.  If we had our way religion would be banned (another prophecy from the Bible to be fulfilled before Armageddon) and most of today’s problems would go away.
Don’t send us into another Dark-Age period. And really, you Catholics need to stop giving corporal punishment for spiritual misdeeds.  Remember He’s a God of love. 🙂

Peace  twom

Truth Saves

richard harris
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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

One Response to Dialogue with Religion

  1. “For one person to say one thing and another to say something that totally contradicts the first, makes me wonder about the “truthiness” of what is being written. I expect Christians to take certain liberties with explanation or apologetics with awkward scriptures, but there is a line….:-)”

    LOL, Indeed but the problem is not with the author of the Gospel of St. John it’s with the 4th/5th century Catholic church. You see the bible means -“library of books” which wasn’t created or finalized until 393 A.D. Additionally there isn’t anyone in ancient times that thinks of historical data like we do today. Even lay men like you and me make assumptions commonly accepted today and read them back into history as if our reality was theirs;>)

    Lecky is a bit dated isn’t he? But again your using secondary sources.

    Here a helpful link if you want to actually read church history not read it through someone else be it positive or negative.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html

    “The Donatists, having separated from the orthodox simply on the question of the validity of the consecration of a certain bishop”

    Sure that’s somewhat true. There is a lot more behind that however. The Donatists were concerned with justice caused by the former Emperor who killed Christians for refusing to acknowledge the emperor as god and for not turning over church documents like scriptures. The question which came up during that time was what documents were worth dying for? This also addresses part of the issue as to why there is so little by way of documentation of the church prior to 300 A.D.

    Back to the point the church chose to be meriful and permit those who submitted to the emperor under duress back into the church. The Donatists by an large refused to accept them back in and their stand actually forced them out.

    The next comments are all true but cover some four hundred years. Want to venture how many secular humanist killed their own kind in that time frame?

    Russia has compulsory draft for the military of which Muslim’s make up 15% of the population. Because of the fertility rates Islam will be at 40% of the military age service(18 to 27).

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rs.html

    “The Russian government I know is really secular and puts up with no religious hi-jinks.”..If we had our way religion would be banned (another prophecy from the Bible to be fulfilled before Armageddon) and most of today’s problems would go away.”

    Indeed that’s why I say we can expect that from you atheist folks within 15 to 20 years. I suspect that atheism will peak at that point in this country at around 40%.

    ” Sometimes I like to take currant world events and filter them through scriptures from the Bible to see how they fit. Keeps my mind awake and agile”

    Well there’s always hope;>) If I could suggest read the Psalms rather then Revelations. The latter is difficult to understand without years of formal study.

    “Hey, secular humanists and atheists and non-believers account for less than 20% of the population here… ”

    I think your at 16% currently but the younger generation is closer to 25% and given the turmoil in the various churches I suspect it will go up an additional 10 to 15% on top of that. Just my guess.
    http://nymag.com/news/features/46214/

    “can’t blame them for the messes.”

    Give me a break. They control most of the top universities and many of the think tanks in the country. I think you sell short your political influence as well.

    “Don’t send us into another Dark-Age period. ”

    The fault there was from the pagans not the catholics and irony they killed us for being atheists (not believing in multiple gods).

    “And really, you Catholics need to stop giving corporal punishment for spiritual misdeeds. Remember He’s a God of love.”

    Really under the assumption that man is made up of flesh & spirit and the spirit is eternal the higher priority logically is the protection of the spirit.

    However its the secular culture that embraces pleasure over everything else including life. The rise of the religion of atheist’s and the decline of Christianity in this country is linked with the decline in the family & marriage, rise in abortions, rise in drugs, increase poverty & crime etc.

    Not that its your fault your the cause of much of it, the fault lies with the church and its failure to sure up the base and expand its influence to the broader society. I think however the bottom has been reached in this country in that its no longer popular to be Christian, if you want to be Christian today and in the coming years it will cost you material success in career and social status.

    Peace to you as well. Enjoyed.

    Tom

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