Conversation about God’s reality

The following is part of a discussion between me and a very intelligent Catholic apologist.  We have been at this off and on for many months now and I truly enjoy “talking” with him

Qb: “Now wait a minute. 1) If you believe that man was alive around 250,000 years ago then that’s when Adam was around not 6,000 BC. And “all the earth” can mean either the whole globe or the known world at that time (which could be localized). The moral of the story works fine in either case. You haven’t disproved the flood story by demonstrating that there wasn’t one when Creationist say Adam lived. You’ve demonstrated that either the flood was 250,000 years earlier or you’ve disproved that it was local not global. IOW’s your disproved their interpretation of scripture, you haven’t undermined the bible’s moral story that humanity pays for its sins.”

Me: No, actually there is no evidence for a world –wide flood…ever.  There has been no time in at least the last 100 million years that I (courtesy of science) know of, when the earth was completely covered with water.  The Biblical story doesn’t make much sense if it is interpreted as a local flood.  Why go to all that trouble to build a boat structure (that would have actually been impossible for the times) like described in the Bible, when all you would have to do is herd the animals to the surrounding hills or mountains.

The story just doesn’t make any sense at all; in any context you try to put it.  Logic and geology and archaeology and palaeology say the story is false.  All the information given in the bible, the little and large clues about time and place and people do not lead any further back than 10,000 years, and for thousands of years this is what organized religion has been telling people is the truth.  The Bible is 100% true in all matters they say.  This Christian book is the be-all-end-all in the life of man.  2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. This is supposedly one of the Pastoral Epistles of Paul, but was probably written a hundred years after his death by an anonymous author so we probably should discount everything it says.

I digress…sorry.  What I am trying to say is that the Bible has these stories that the Church has been saying are true for 2000 years. It has all these chapters with all these sayings and instructions that the church has passed off as truly inspired from God and therefore true in all ways…it has ground this stuff into our brains for 2000 years…killed to further its vision…browbeat all who would dissent…demonized those who would not accept.

Now humans have grownup and we have learned about our world and its history and for the first time in over 200,000 +- years we can view and plot what has been our and our planets history.  It’s a foggy view at times, but sometimes things are crystal clear…we know things that people who lived many thousands of years ago couldn’t have even visualized or wouldn’t have thought possible.  We can prove things of the past with circumstantial evidence.

We can genetically plot the rise of man from the orangutans  or monkeys. We can genetically plot the meanderings of humanity for tens of thousands of years, across the whole face of the earth.  A real God would have known this and would not write a story that can so easily be dismissed nowadays.  The stories of the Bible are myths written by men to tell around the campfire or to entertain children…they have no basis in a real God…way to many mistakes that we can now see, they do not resonate as truth in today’s time because of the false stories that are passed off as truth…there is absolutely no sign of transcendent knowledge which we would expect a God to have.

Yes the story of Noah’s flood does have a moral, but it a false one because it tells that God will kill you if you do not bow down to him….but where is the God who tells false stories, where is a omniscient God who would know that people would pass off this story as true for 2500 years only to have it disproven later by a much smarter people…people who don’t believe in magic or demons or provably impossible myths.  There is no God…its getting clearer all the time.

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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

2 Responses to Conversation about God’s reality

  1. Twom: No, actually there is no evidence for a world –wide flood…ever.

    QB: While the current evidence indicates that point, I don’t really think it matters as far as the story goes. The Euphrates River flooded annually but the civilization built damns to control it. There is scientific evidence of a great flood back in 2,900 BC which likely breached the damn. Ask any one that lives in the Big Easy if great floods happens. By “local” I meant covering hundreds of miles. Look at the map of the area.

    Its all flat and there’s no way to tell people to run for the hills when it starts to rain because you’d never get to high ground in time, except by horse. So everyone Noah knew would have perished in such a flood. I don’t think Noah knew about Tasmanian Devils or Buffalo’s so I’m not to concerned about how they survived.

    TWOM: 2 Timothy 3:16-17

    QB: Yes it applies to righteousness for good work. That means that whatever profession or labor you perform should be done with charity towards all. It doesn’t mean the bible is going to provide you with a doctorate in chemistry;>)

    TWOM: This is supposedly one of the Pastoral Epistles of Paul, but was probably written a hundred years after his death by an anonymous author so we probably should discount everything it says.

    QB: No not at all. TERTULLIANUS of Carthage states in his work “Against marcion” (book 5, chapter 21) that Marcion rejected 2 Tim, so that brings the manuscript back to 140″s A.D (marcion time). And in order for a document to be in that wide a circulation (North Africa and Italy) it was written several decades before Marcion as well. St. Irenaeus of Lyons cites both Timonthy works. He was taught by St. Polycarp who was taught directly by the Apostle John. So there is no issue with the oral transmission of the document. Now does that mean that it was written by St. Paul in prison? Possibly or it may not, but Catholicism doesn’t base its decision on authorship strictly on say a theory developed in the 19th century (high criticism). It sounds like your reading to much from Absolute Astronomy using the late Fr. Brown’s work or the more radical Fr. Jerome O’Connor. Such research theory is encouraged by my church, but just because someone comes up with a theory doesn’t mean it is “Gospel” and their view is not without its assumptions. It helps bring to light more tangents, but it should never be used to try an undermine someone’s faith. There is no compelling evidence to refute the authorship of 2 Tim since it held wide acceptance across many cultures in the very early church. Prior to the dawn of the 5th century the fixing of the bible was still somewhat fluid. Some Protestant readers may get heartburn with that premise, but in the final analysis we both hold to those 27 books as “in” the bible.

    TWOM: What I am trying to say is that the Bible has these stories that the Church has been saying are true for 2000 years.

    QB: The stories are true. Are they scientific imperically true-no. There was a flood during Noah’s time. That’s not in dispute (at least I hope your not arguing that point). Your issue is on the global world wide flood. Fine take that up with Christians who hold that position. My church doesn’t care if you do or don’t hold to a global flood. Its the MORAL of the story that is critical. Sins committed by man has consequences, God’s mercy is available to all, many will reject that offer and they will die (both physically and spiritually). It’s not rocket science (really its not) ;>)

    TWOM: It has all these chapters with all these sayings and instructions that the church has passed off as truly inspired from God and therefore true in all ways…it has ground this stuff into our brains for 2000 years…killed to further its vision…browbeat all who would dissent…demonized those who would not accept.

    QB: I love it when you take the morally high ground;>) I don’t believe you can come to that conclusion when you read the historical context.
    Ever hear of St. Ambrose(?) He’s one of my favorite Saints. Emperor Theodosius the Great massacred 7000 people @ Thessalonica and St. Ambrose refused to say Mass until the Emperor repented on his knees. Pope Leo the Great against Attila the Hun to save Rome, he saved the lives of the citizens again against the Visigoths, St Thomas a’Beckett and host of others, who stood against Christian Emperors and Kings because they (the political rulers) were using their faith to make people conform to the kings political desire for unity, which was faith. There was no other political unifying force back then. Even language was mixed. It was much easier for the king or baron to recruit men to fight for the honor of God then it was to call them to defend their “country” since the concept of nation-state didn’t exist for the first 1000 years after Christ. Even then the church was a moderating force to stop war since a king attacking another Christian king could get excommunicated and lose control of his troops.
    The church collectively prevented much, much more bloodshed then what you think it caused.
    As far as natural science goes it owes its existence to the monks who dedicated their lives to preserving written knowledge, creating the college system and the scientific method. No other faith group developed that, and its because the Christian faith believe in seeking the Truth. Reason and Truth do not conflict, despite what Luther told everyone.

    TWOM: Yes the story of Noah’s flood does have a moral, but it a false one because it tells that God will kill you if you do not bow down to him.

    QB: No it doesn’t, its the classic example of double effect. God doesn’t “Need” anything from any creature. He desired to save Noah from the corrupt society that surrounded him.

    TWOM: There is no God

    QB: Quoting Psalm 14:1 you left out the first part – “The fool says in his heart” ;>)

    I am sorry that you are currently unable to see God’s hand working in your life. I have no doubt that He will. Whether you are willing to see and listen is another matter.

    I’ve enjoyed this as well. I think we’ve beat this horse to death.

  2. thewordofme says:

    Amen brother…

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