Old Biblical Stories…Redux
August 26, 2009 23 Comments
I spent a lot of time on this reply, it needs to be on the blog front page.
Hi Marianne, Thank you for writing.
You write:”
I am a scientist that is paying attention. I have spent 30 years in biochemistry, which includes cell biology, toxicology, pharmacology, inflammation, biophysics of DNA and RNA, and medical research in general.
Great, I’ve always wanted to talk to someone in the research. If you are comfortable with it, could you tell me where you received your degree, what degree you have, and what particular field you work in today?
You write:
“Most scientists do not have any proof for what you say. It is all just “tradition.” They just assume evolution did this, and evolution did that. There is no proof. What the lay person perceives as proof is just scientific speculation, based on this traditional thinking.”
So are you saying here that you do not agree with or accept evolution?
How old do you think the earth and our universe is?
You write:
“you make several unsubstantiated comments. Like Noah did not exist. Well there are records of him, just like there are records of Julius Caesar. There was a garden of eden, and the description of what happened to it is consistent with the syrian african rift – most of it fell into this pit. The bible knew about this rift before modern science did. And the descriptions of the Garden match up with local areas, if you understand tectonic plate shifts.”
Here is what I actually wrote in my reply to your earlier post:
“Looking around and paying attention and studying the world we find the evidence that there never was a world-wide flood, which means we are not descended from Noah’s 3 sons. We find that real humans have been walking the earth for at least 200,000 years (means that there was no Adam and Eve as the Bible relates), which also means there was no fall from grace in the Garden of Eden, which means there is no Original Sin…which also means there is no need for a redeemer (Jesus) for our (non-existent) original sin .”
I did not say Noah never existed (although I do doubt that he did) I said there is NO evidence of his supposed flood, and you will find the evidence for this fact is all over the internet. You say there are records of him…could you perhaps guide me to them?
Regarding the Garden of Eden, there are many stories and guesses as to where it was. The Discovery and Nat Geo channels have had a few specials about that, and it has variously been placed in Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ethiopia, and Kenya. The Great Rift Valley which goes through Ethiopia, Kenya, and Tanzania, and goes right by the Afar depression…you know where Lucy and her brethrens bones are found, also the border area between Namibia and South Africa, and probably other places I haven’t heard about. Yes, I am familiar with plate tectonics
The Largest DNA study on record at this time is the IBM, Nat Geo Genome Project which has over 350,000 DNA samples right now, and they are showing all the existing human bloodlines come from Africa, primarily the Ethiopian, Kenya area and the border area between Namibia and South Africa.
And why would there be a Garden of Eden if Adam and Eve did not exist?
You write:
“I do not accept the Jewish archeologist denying the Exodus or Joshua. I say the opposite. They are uncovering new evidence every day. They have sites where the Red Sea was crossed, and the pharoah’s chariots are still down there, under water. THey also have sites where the Israelites offered sacrifices in the desert, with hebrew symbols. The israelites were instructed to leave markers along their journey, and these markers have been found. “
You do not accept the Archaeological evidence? Do you have other scientific evidence that refutes this? Is this part of your field today? Also it’s not just one archaeologist.
There has never been a discovery of Pharaohs chariots in the Red Sea, or the Reed Sea for that matter, and believe me they have been looked for. If you insist there is…could you please point me to the evidence, as I have scoured the internet for almost three years now for evidence of this (and other Biblical things) and have had no luck at all.
To the best of my knowledge many, many archaeologists have scoured the Sinai for a hundred years looking for any evidence at all that over a million Hebrews wandered there for 40 years and have found absolutely nothing. There is even no evidence at Kadesh-Barnea where a million Hebrews supposedly spent the majority of their time during this 40 years. You know that the evidence of Joshua defeating the town of Jericho and Ai are lacking also, don’t you? I haven’t heard anything at all about markers.
You write:
“Most modern church and theology seminaries are getting away from the truth, not going toward it. Much is crap. They need the holy spirit to know truth, not a man getting paid a salary. He is just a hireling.”
I guessing here that you are an evangelical fundamentalist and believe in the literal Bible as being inerrant in all matters. Would I be right? I think a lot of what the modern church and seminaries are doing is trying to keep up with the emerging science that somehow impinges on religion. This is what’s going on with the Old Testament and Genesis specifically. The circumstantial evidence against Adam and Eve, Noah’s flood, Tower of Babel, Exodus, Joshua, and the subsequent fallout from these stories being false…nothing but myth, is changing our world of religious thought. Denying facts do not make them go away.
You write:
“As far as time on the earth, no data is any better than the tool that measures it. There is no realistic tool that can measure over 500o years. The rest is speculation, and going off the standard curve, which is bad science.”
Have you heard of Potassium Argon dating? There are also about 20 or 30 radioactive element methods of dating besides the common C-14
Also there are the following:
Absolute dating
Amino acid dating
Astronomical chronology
Biochronology
Datestone
Dendrochronology
Electron spin resonance
Fluorine absorption dating
Ice-Core dating
Iodine-xenon dating
Law of superposition
Obsidian hydration dating
Oxidizable carbon ratio dating
Principle of faunal succession
Relative dating
Thermoluminescence dating
I’m sure I’ve missed one or two…but then you know all this as a scientist.
Dendrochronology can go back 11,000 years now. Not helpful in the Sinai, but useful in other parts of Israel…to sometimes fact check the old stories.
You might want to check out an older post of mine here: https://thewordofme.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/carbon-dating-and-the-bible
In it I reference a Christian writer and scientist who actually works in the age-dating field. I have there a link to a PDF file about age-dating that the man wrote especially for Christians. Also I will post his contact data here: Dr. Roger C. Wiens RCWiens@MSN.Com Dr. Wiens has a PhD in Physics, with a minor in Geology. His PhD thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites, including surface exposure dating.
He was employed at Caltech’s Division of Geological & Planetary Sciences at the time of writing the first edition. He is presently employed in the Space & Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
He has published over twenty scientific research papers and has also published articles in Christian magazines. Dr. Wiens became a Christian at a young age, and has been a member of Mennonite Brethren, General Conference Baptist, and Conservative Congregational, and Vineyard denominations.
Whole PDF article can be found at: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html
Age Dating in the many ways and methods used by science nowadays works…there is NO real dispute about this…except from YEC’s
You write:
“If you want to know Jesus, he will make himself known to you, in a way that is unique to you.”
Is there really a need for Jesus…if there was no Adam and Eve and consequently no “Original Sin”?
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Hi tworm
I received my Master’s Degree in Biochemistry from NC State University. I was in the PhD program to begin with, but left after 3 years due to family illness. My son had his first seizure, and the department thought I would lose too much time dealing with this medical issue. I had excess coursework for a PhD degree, but the research time was cut short. I am a Biochemist, and most recent work was getting an FDA application approved for a drug loaded medical device for AIDS patients. Before that, I was in inflammation research for osteoarthritis. Most of my work has been at UNC_ Chapel Hill, NC State University and Duke University.
No. I do not believe in Evolution. I have seen too much fake evidence for it, and it is irrelevant anyhow for modern processes. It adds nothing to current effort to attribute reasons to some theoretical past event. Current efforts are to determine what causes illness NOW, not where people think life came from a million years ago. There is little or no government funding for evolution, since it is of low value. The only “scientists” interested in evolution are evolutionists, anthropologists, and the general population. NIH and other sources would rather us focus on viral research for vaccines, cancer, and heart disease, etc. That is where the money is. Most scientists do not sit around and talk about how much they believe in evolution. They have more important work to do.
The age of the earth is debatable. There is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Something happened in between. The age of man is much less. Records only go back 6000 years. There is some possibility of a pre-Adamic race, but they were not human. The bible mentions fallen angels on the earth before man showed up.
Like I said, there is no evidence that man is 200,000 years old. Someone just made that up.
The bible is an historical record. Noah is in there. Look at the mid-Atlantic ridge, where the water burst up from. Look at the fossil record. We have trees that transverse sediment layers that are supposed to be different time periods. It is all one time period in which sediment layers were rapidly laid down and animals and plants were caught in them. The flood is a big topic. It cannot be addressed here.
Lucy was a hoax. She was a chimp.
Look at a map of a pangea. At one time all the continents were together, and you can see how they fit together that way. They were broken up during the flood. The Garden of Eden was also broken up. The bible indicates that Modern Turkey used to be part of Lebanon. It still retains 2 of the 4 rivers. The plate, slid back, and northward to where it is today. The bible also mentions the best part of the Garden fell into the “pit” which is the Syrian African rift. Adam stayed in the eastward portion of the garden, which is where Syria and Iraq would have been.
Show me the journal reference DNA study from the genome project . What you might call Africa today may not have been Africa then before the flood and the breaking of the plates. The garden was in the middle east, not Africa. Noah had 3 sons. Shem, Ham and Japtheth. They all represented the same generation. Ham went south to Africa. Ham is not “older” than the others. Descendents of Ham, therefore, are not more ancient than others either.
I do not believe Jewish archeologists ever said what you claimed. I think you are making that up. Sorry….:(…..or you heard it from an erroneous source.
There has never been a discovery of Pharaohs chariots in the Red Sea, If you insist there is…could you please point me to the evidence, http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168
Get this book….it will help you with answers about Israel……
The archaeology of ancient Israel
By Amnon Ben-Tor, R. Greenberg
I have been to the ruins of Jericho. They were found exactly as the bible described them. The walls fell vertically, not outwardly, as most walls would do. There is also the rock found that Moses struck in half. You need to check this out. The arabs have possession of the real Mt Sinai, and the top is still burnt. They will not let anyone near it, and they have a fence around it.
The modern church in some cases is apostate. You have to look to the bible for the original truth, and not just believe anything people tell you. The bible actually instructs us to do this. We have to read and think for ourselves so we are not deceived.
I stand by what I said about research tools and time dating…..you do not seem to know what a standard curve is……you can only read off a curve, which is based on points you can observe. You cannot extrapolate off the curve and fast forward 1 million years.
Even Einstein and Tesla established that time is not linear.
Finally, about Jesus,….yes there is a need for Him, because he is a reality no matter how you think life came about or how old the world is. He was part of the creative process, and he established who he was when he came. I hope you can keep open about him. The world is going to go through some terrible changes, and he will only rescue those who believe in him.
But I think you raise too many issues in one post. You need to break it down, so you can discuss your objections better. Nice to chat with you.
Hi Marianne, thanks for your reply.
I’m short on time right now so I’m only going to give a short answer regarding my “lying” to you about the Israeli archaeologists. I will give a longer answer as soon as I am able,
Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University, “The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text.”
“The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom.”
There is much more to this argument.
hi tiworm,
Israel Finkelstein is nuts. That is the silliest thing I ever heard. They should fire him. There is so much proof against him, it is ridiculous.
Hi again Marianne, thank you for taking the time to write your fine answer to my reply.
I am sorry to hear about your son…I hope all is well with him now.
Very fine credentials, sounds like you will be a great contributor to health research. I’m curious if you know Dr. Bart Ehrman who is a Prof. of religion at Chapel Hill? He has written several fine books about Jesus and other matters on religion.
You write:
“No. I do not believe in Evolution. I have seen too much fake evidence for it, and it is irrelevant anyhow for modern processes.”
Well I’ve been told that there are scientists who don’t believe in evolution, but you are the first one I have had a chance to “talk” to. It seems a little eerie, knowing how a scientist must think in their fields and how they must go about finding the truth.
All the reading and research I have done on evolution makes perfect sense to me, and I haven’t come across any fake evidence that I know of. I’m curious as to where you are finding this fake information; is it peer review papers or the various Journals?
You write:
“The age of the earth is debatable. There is a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Something happened in between. The age of man is much less. Records only go back 6000 years. There is some possibility of a pre-Adamic race, but they were not human. The bible mentions fallen angels on the earth before man showed up.”
The pre-Adamic race you are probably thinking of is the Neanderthals. They seemed to have been wandering around earth from about 250,000 BC to around 30,000 BC. They were around 99% human and buried their dead, possibly made flutes and some jewelry. Latest evidence says they could probably speak, as they had the requisite FOXP2 gene and Hyoid bone.
The age of the earth is only debatable by Young Earth Creationists. With respect, all the rest of the world knows how old it really is.
You write:
“Like I said, there is no evidence that man is 200,000 years old. Someone just made that up.
The bible is an historical record. Noah is in there. Look at the mid-Atlantic ridge, where the water burst up from. Look at the fossil record. We have trees that transverse sediment layers that are supposed to be different time periods. It is all one time period in which sediment layers were rapidly laid down and animals and plants were caught in them. The flood is a big topic. It cannot be addressed here.”
The Pentateuch which was supposedly written by Moses, and of course lays out the foundational myths of mankind…as seen by the Hebrews, speaks of Adam and Eve, Noah, Tower of Babel, Exodus and other myths. Moses did not actually write those books, they were written long after his death by scribes around the time of the Exile or shortly thereafter, maybe 700-400 BC. We know this by writing styles, the fact that there are two stories of human Genesis, two stories of the flood that have been woven together, the fact that there are a number of anachronisms that are only explainable by a later writing.
The anomaly you mention about the transverse trees has been thoroughly explained by normal forces and the other matters you mention are part of what’s called “flood geology” which is thoroughly discredited by mainline geologists.
The “flood geologists” do no science at all; they do not produce scientific papers that can be peer reviewed or cross checked for validity…all they do is spout nonsense…which can readily be discredited by real scientists in the field.
Yes the flood is a big subject, and scientists as early as the 1600’s were disputing the reality of it. I believe, along with about 95% or more of all scientists in the field, that there was never a world-wide flood…no real evidence at all for it.
Regarding the age of modern man (Homo sapiens) I hardly know how to reply to this. The physical evidence of man/woman living on this earth for tens of thousands of years is totally overwhelming, and I can’t imagine how a real scientist can ignore or discount this fact.
The cave paintings of France, the Venus figurines of Russia and Europe, the tools from the Blombos cave in South Africa, The 30,000+ year old rock art of the Australian Aborigines, the 50,000 year old bones of a Neanderthal and Homo sapiens together in a cave on Mt. Carmel in Israel. Hundreds of thousands of datable artifacts and villages and graves and bones, uncounted thousands of things I can’t even begin to remember in this short a time.
You are obviously a Young Earth Creationist and you are missing out on sooo much amazing science and exploration and mind stretching vision. I have studied some small sample of the science out there about human origins and I am constantly astounded at what I find.
A story from October of 2007 at Science Daily describes earlier findings of this primeval human habitation site and relates that “After decades of debate, paleoanthropologists now agree the genetic and fossil evidence suggests that the modern human species — Homo sapiens — evolved in Africa between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago.”
Full story can be found here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071017145252.htm
You write:
“Show me the journal reference DNA study from the genome project . What you might call Africa today may not have been Africa then before the flood and the breaking of the plates.”
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html
Click to access Genographic_brochure.pdf
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/04/13/MNGQIC7FT51.DTL
As I said earlier, they now have over 350,000 DNA samples. The Nat Geo cable channel has been advertising a special coming up the 30th. of this month on this subject and the study results.
I can find no reference to sudden gigantic global plate movement 4300-4500 years ago. There is no evidence to be found anywhere that Africa has moved significantly in relation to other parts of the Middle East in the last 10,000 years.
Except for input from meteors or comets, the earth has the same amount of water it always had.
More writing regarding the myths in the Old Testament:
http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/grounds.htm
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/who_are_the_Jews.htm
Excerpt from longer article
By Ze’ev Herzog (Ha’aretz Magazine, Friday, October 29, 1999)
“Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs’ acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it
This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people – and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story – now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells.
In a September 22nd, 2002 speech to visiting Christian Zionists, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon asserted, “This land is ours… God gave us the title deeds…” However, recent scholarly research, including discoveries by an archaeological team from the University of Tel Aviv, not only deconstruct the Biblical Old Testament and Torah stories upon which this claim rests, but grant previously unthinkable credence to an ancient historian’s claim that the Israelites of Exodus were actually the Hyksos, and therefore of Asiatic origin. “
“There has never been a discovery of Pharaohs chariots in the Red Sea, If you insist there is…could you please point me to the evidence,
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168
You might want to do some checking on the background of this article and the referenced character Ron Wyatt. Also the World News Daily is well known for its fundamentalist bias on religion and politics.
I will insist again that there has never been found any real evidence to support the supernatural crossing of the Red or Reed Sea and subsequent drowning of a Pharaoh and his troops…leaving behind chariot wheels.
“Lucy was a hoax. She was a chimp.”
Yes she is or was a chimp in most senses, but she walked upright, and is probably an integral part of our heritage.
“I have been to the ruins of Jericho. They were found exactly as the bible described them. The walls fell vertically, not outwardly, as most walls would do.”
Some interesting history regarding the dating of Jericho.
Bryant G. Wood is a biblical archaeologist and Research Director of the inerrantist Associates for Biblical Research. He is known for his 1990 proposed re-dating of the destruction of Jericho to accord with the biblical chronology of c. 1400 BC. The proposal was later (1995) contradicted by new radiocarbon evidence, and Kathleen Kenyon’s dating of c. 1550 BC remains the date accepted in scholarly publications. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryant_G._Wood
Kathleen Kenyon: Digging Up Jericho, Jericho and the Coming of the
Israelites, page 262:
“As concerns the date of the destruction of Jericho by the Israelites, all
that can be said is that the latest Bronze Age occupation should, in my
view, be dated to the third quarter of the fourteenth century B.C. This is a
date which suits neither the school of scholars which would date the entry
of the Israelites into Palestine to c. 1400 B.C. nor the school which
prefers a date of c. 1260 B.C.”
You write:
“I stand by what I said about research tools and time dating…..you do not seem to know what a standard curve is……you can only read off a curve, which is based on points you can observe. You cannot extrapolate off the curve and fast forward 1 million years.”
I’m sorry, I have heard of the “standard curve” being used in biological assays and many biological experiments of course, but have not run into it in relation to age-dating.
I have read the age-dating paper I referenced earlier and understand and accept it as sound science…again I remind you it is written by a fellow YEC person. If you happen to read the article you will note that he explains how radioactive decay is known to be the same today as “in the beginning.” I understand that time can be non-linear when subjects are moving at or near the speed of light, but it’s pretty linear here on earth in relation to rocks and humans. 🙂
You write:
“But I think you raise too many issues in one post. You need to break it down, so you can discuss your objections better. Nice to chat with you.”
Yes you are right…I tend to run off at the mouth…err…keyboard. 🙂 If you would care to continue, would you be so kind as to pick the subject(s)? I am truly enjoying our conversation, and I never mean to write anything disrespecting you, if I come too close just slap me. 🙂 twom
Please make you questions short. I have just a little time to read and answer.
Marianne,
Do you accept that human bones have been found and dated well past 6,000 years of age?
Do you acknowledge the evidence of a past race known as Neanderthals?
6000 years is a reasonable time. There is real data for that time length. It depends on how much past 6000 years you are talking about. I took physcial anthropology in college, and they had unrealistic time frames for bones.
I think I mentioned before that I believed a pre-Adamic race existed, which were not human by our current standards.
There is a gap in time that is unaccounted for between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
God had created everything as perfect. Suddenly, it was without form and void. God seemed to be starting over. How much time went by? I am not sure.
Hi Marianne,
You Write:
“6000 years is a reasonable time. There is real data for that time length. It depends on how much past 6000 years you are talking about. I took physcial anthropology in college, and they had unrealistic time frames for bones.”
On what science do you base your “unrealistic time frames” for bones assertion?
You write:
“I think I mentioned before that I believed a pre-Adamic race existed, which were not human by our current standards.”
Yes, but the Neanderthals died out somewhere around 30,000 BC
You write:
There is a gap in time that is unaccounted for between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
And:
“God had created everything as perfect. Suddenly, it was without form and void. God seemed to be starting over. How much time went by? I am not sure.”
I think what you are calling a time gap is nothing more than two different stories being not so skillfully woven together. Biblical scholars have long recognized that there are several different stories in Genesis that a redactor brought together as one c.700-400 BC
Do you believe that men/women lived at the same time as dinosaurs?
twom
you said…..On what science do you base your “unrealistic time frames” for bones assertion?
100s, and millions, of years seem unreasonable, because the time cannot be verified, only guessed at. There is no science that backs this up. It is not my science, it is theirs….they pull dates out of a hat.
30,000 BC would be pre-Adamic
Not every detail in history or creation is given in the bible…..or the book would be too big to read. Whatever God chose to reveal at the time was enough for then. God periodically reveals more, when he thinks it is necessary, or it is significant.
yes…I think it is possible that man lived with dinosaurs. The book of Job mentions a very large creature called a behemoth.
Hi Marianne,
You write:
“30,000 BC would be pre-Adamic”
Yes it would be; the thing is we find Homo-sapiens bones on the same level in the fossil record as the Neanderthal.
You write:
“yes…I think it is possible that man lived with dinosaurs. The book of Job mentions a very large creature called a behemoth.”
Even though we know that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago?
Even though dinosaur bones and human bones are tremendously far apart in the fossil record, and there has never been found any mixing in the fossil record?
twom
no, we do not “know” that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago….we are just TOLD that.
human and dinosaur remains have been found together…
Hi Marianne,
I’m sorry but I hit the wrong button and the reply went online before I was done. Please see edited post.
You write:
“no, we do not “know” that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago….we are just TOLD that.”
Well I believe there is more evidence that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago than we have evidence that the earth is only 6,000 years
old.
Does your religious belief preclude you from reading about and studying scientific works?
You write:
“human and dinosaur remains have been found together…”
If you are talking about the Paluxy river Texas tracks…those have been proven to be a fraud.
I know of no other reputed tracks.
twom
twom
how do you PROVE that something is 65 million years old..and how do you PROVE that the test is valid?
How does one prove something is 6,000 years old?
How does one prove a world wide flood when all the evidence points to it not happening?
How does one prove anything in science?
How does one prove anything in religion?
6000 years can be proven by eye witnesses who keep records.
same for a flood
science works the same way – direct observation.
there has been no direct observation of 65 million years
Hi Marianne,
No one was able to keep records 6000 years ago. The first recorded writing (Akkadian)was about 3100-3000 BCE. The Hebrews started writing down some of their myths about 900-700 BCE.
You of course are aware that law enforcement is able to use circumstantial evidence to put criminals in jail and even send them to the gas chamber or electric chair.
Science works not only by direct observation, but also by using circumstantial evidence…since we cannot directly observe some things
The flood can be (has been) disproven by circumstantial evidence.
The dinosaurs have been proven by circumstantial evidence to have died out about 65 million years ago.
Adam and Eve, as recorded in the Bible, have been disproven by circumstantial evidence.
Noah’s flood has been disproven by circumstantial evidence.
The Tower of Babel has been disproven by circumstantial evidence.
The Exodus, as recorded in the Bible, has been disproven by lack of evidence.
Age dating by various methods has been verified and proven by direct observation and cross checking methods against each other.
These things have been proven to the satisfaction of scientists, universities, colleges, and institutions all over the world…and the evidence is open and available to anyone. The only people on earth that dispute the dating evidence are certain religions.
The churches seem to have a good racket going. They tell you all of this stuff about their particular brand of Christianity and then tell you that you cannot research what’s behind it; you must have “faith.”
“The difference between science and the fuzzy subjects is that science requires reasoning while those other subjects merely require scholarship.” Robert A. Heinlein
the moon has been disproved by circumstantial evidence. 🙂
if the facts were right in front of you, you would still argue your brains out.
I need a rest. I have about 100 emails a day to deal with. you need to learn to be more open. The bible has not been disproven by anyone.
and science DOES need facts, not circumstantial evidence. No evidence, no proof, then no journal articles, and no federal funding. 🙂
Hi Marianne, I hope you are well.
You write:
“and science DOES need facts, not circumstantial evidence. No evidence, no proof, then no journal articles, and no federal funding. 🙂
I’m talking here about using circumstantial evidence in a slightly different way…that ends up proving or disproving assertions that are made about the Bible and other religious beliefs.
For example; literally thousands of geological observations have been made about a possible Noachian flood since the 1600’s and they all conclude that there is no evidence for a world-wide flood at the time of Noah; indeed there is no geological evidence for a world-wide flood on earth at all…ever.
Other science fields that somehow impinge on the question of a world-wide flood also report there is no evidence to back up a flood. Fields such as archaeology, paleontology, bioarchaeology, paleoanthropology, and others.
People have been looking hard for evidence of a flood for over a thousand years…nothing.
This is the kind of circumstantial evidence I speak of.
Adam and Eve; Although you deny the evidence we do know that actual modern type Homo sapiens walked the earth for well over 100,000 years…probably over 200,000 years as new evidence is coming in now. Regardless of what you think of the dating, many (almost all) scientists do believe and accept it.
Every-time science and religion have disagreed in the past…science has won, and I believe it will win this conflict also.
Think of the consequences of there being no Adam and Eve to blame all this sin on. Where do you suppose Paul would find some original sin to insert into our lives?
Tower of Babel; we know that humans were spread all over the earth at the time of this myth. There is absolutely no doubt about this, the evidence is overwhelming. This event was only supposed to have happened about 4,000 years ago. It is known for a fact that humans were on all continents except Antarctica by this time.
This knowledge that the ‘Tower’ myth is false also impacts on the ‘Flood’ story (only about 200-300 years apart) as we know these civilizations spread all over the earth do not have any evidence of complete destruction and desolation that required the complete rebuilding of their countries…but having no people to accomplish this with. Again circumstantial, but very strong evidence that the story is a non-event.
My guess is that the whole of Genesis is nothing more than sheepherders campfire stories, as there really is no proof that the stories are real.
You write:
“you need to learn to be more open. The bible has not been disproven by anyone.”
I am open to any thing that can be proven in science or mathematics. I believe large parts of the Biblical stories are disproven. If you have real actual science to disprove what I have asserted here…I am open to listen. 🙂
hi word
ok. give me the proof. 🙂
your word is not enough. 🙂
giv me proof that the current dating system is also based on direct observation, and analysis.
show me someone old enough who can verify all data points for a standard time curve, so we can date back 100,000 years.
give me the scientific proof that there was no world wide flood. this will dispute ancient legends from every culture.
Adam and Eve would imply one DNA template that all mankind has. Proove that this does not exist. They just finished the human genome project. you can try getting your data from there.
the tower of babel came AFTER the flood.
proove the Noahan flood from the 1600’s. There are currently about 6.9 billion people in the world. After fighting the bubonic plague, an having lifespans of only about 30-40 years old for centuries, explain how we ended up with so many people.
the printing press was invented in the 1400’s. so explain why there were no books written about this 1600s flood. Jamestown in the USA was established in 1607, so why didn’t it get flooded?
the continants split from one land mass during the flood. the mid Atlantic ridge show where the earth split and released the water from the depths below. it is still unstable today, as well as other geological faults which resulted from land shifts.
Hi Marianne, thanks for your reply.
I’m sorry, I guess I did not explain sciences position on these matters well enough in my last reply to you.
I did not mean to imply that the Noachian Flood happened in the 1600’s. I was trying to say that the scientists of the time (they were called ‘naturalists’ then) started to doubt the Biblical Flood story in the 1600’s.
I know the flood was surmised to have happened about 2200-2400 BC, and the Tower of Babel about 100 to 300 years later.
The DNA evidence proves that there was not 1 set of progenitors of the whole human race and it says we humans (in groups) came out of Africa several times, mostly from Ethiopia, but probably from Namibia as well.
Although the European and North American continents are moving away from each other about 2.4 cm a year (continental drift) there is no reputable geological evidence at all that at the time of the Noachian Flood all the land masses were one (Pangaea)…this split is known to have happened about 200+- MYA in the Precambrian era…not 4300 years ago.
“Often a NON-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances…and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.”
-St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis).
You write:
“give me proof that the current dating system is also based on direct observation, and analysis.”
And:
“show me someone old enough who can verify all data points for a standard time curve, so we can date back 100,000 years.”
Of course you know this is impossible. If this is what you use as evidence that these things didn’t happen…I’m sorry that your theology/dogma leads you to such a poor conclusion and I will not bother you again.
Keeping in mind that you have a Masters degree in one of the sciences I can’t help but think that I’m preaching to the choir. Still, you deny the truth of science. This would concern me more if I thought you were denying science based on lack of adequate confirming scientific evidence or a wealth of evidence to the contrary. I suspect, however, that you deny this science wholly on theological grounds.
“Religious belief is not bound to regular standards of evidence and logic. It is not about logic and it is not obliged to follow logic. Arguments with believers start from a false premise—that the believer is bound by the rules of debate rather than being bound by the belief itself. The freethinker assumes that the believer is free to concede; but this is rarely true. At best the bits of logic or evidence put forth in an argument go into the hopper with a whole host of other factors. And yet each of us who is a former believer (we number in the millions) reached some point in our lives when we simply couldn’t sustain our old certainties. Our sense of knowing either eroded over time or abruptly disappeared. So sometimes those hoppers do fill up.” Valerie Tarico, Christian Belief Through the Lens of Cognitive Science.
You write:
“ok. give me the proof. “
“your word is not enough.”
Unless you didn’t pay attention to your instructors and courses in college I suspect you already know the proofs for what I said…this is not stuff I made up, the information has been ‘out there’ for many years and is available on hundreds if not thousands of websites and in most scientific journals. All I am doing is passing the information on.
Good wishes to you and yours. 🙂
twom
Hi Marianne,
Was just reviewing some of my old posts and came across this piece I had forgot about.
A single flood theory was rejected in 1837 by the Reverend William Buckland, the first professor of geology at Oxford University, who wrote:
Some have attempted to ascribe the formation of all the stratified rocks to the effects of the Mosaic Deluge; an opinion which is irreconcilable with the enormous thickness and almost infinite subdivisions of these strata, and with the numerous and regular successions which they contain of the remains of animals and vegetables, differing more and more widely from existing species, as the strata in which we find them are placed at greater depths. The fact that a large proportion of these remains belong to extinct genera, and almost all of them to extinct species, that lived and multiplied and died on or near the spots where they are now found, shows that the strata in which they occur were deposited slowly and gradually, during long periods of time, and at widely distant intervals.
Notice this was a minister speaking and Oxford at the time was a religious university. Also this was before Darwin.
hi twom
I acknowledge the argument given. But remember, that the skills and tools of yesteryear are not what we have today.
I am a scientist, what what I conclude today may be dis proven 100 years from now because of better technology.
But when it comes to evolution, people are stuck in the past, with old reasonings, and old methods. The old methods were merely observing animals, and what they had in common.
Buckland gave his opinion, based on what he could observe at the time.
Modern methods have shown that, with enough force ( pounds per cubic inch) of water “exploding out” from high pressure from under the earth, that rock can quickly erode, and the same kind of layers can quickly form, and trap species in those layers.
I cannot remember what TV program I was watching, but someone re-enacted this water pressure experiment somewhere.
They have even found one tree that crosses the different strata, and therefore across “time.” It was trapped in a vertical position. I saw the video of the tree also on TV. Since the tree was still living and upright, when it was trapped, and crossed “millions of years of strata” I would have to conclude that the tree was either really old ( 🙂 ), or the strata was laid down all at once, under high pressure erosion.
Different media will respond to pressure at different rates. The loosest soil will be affected first, and the rockiest material will respond last. That is why the “top soil” ended up on the bottom, and under intense pressure, became coal.
Those are my thoughts. 🙂
twom
Ok. I just got the other message. This is not about religion. It is about science.
forget Augustine. he knew noting about science.
and forget stupid comments about religion. Unbelief is not an argument. I am talking about legitimate science.
Unless you have a legitimate standard curve, NONE of your data is valid. It is all garbage.
You also cannot have a standard curve for certain values, and read “off the curve” to imagine values out of range. That is what carbon dating does.
There is no legitimate standard curve for carbon dating, and so anything that is read off the curve into “millions of years” is just not valid.
I have been out of school for 35 years. I have taught students, medical residents and post -docs. I teach them correctly. Any data that is concluded from a bad standard curve is junk.
you either have to get a better, more legitimate curve, or discard the data.
There is some pseudo science that has crept into real science. This includes carbon dating, and reading of strata, assigning times that are not proven.
I am VERY particular about proof. Too much speculation is taken as proof. it is just not legitimate data.
Carbon dating, and reading of strata without a standard to compare against, is just garbage data.