Proof of God

People of the Christian religion have been trying for 2000 years to prove that their god exists…they have failed…miserably.

They have not been able to provide one single shred of objective, irrefutable, or verifiable evidence in support of their claim.  When science and the Bible tangle on facts, it is science who invariably wins.

The Bible has been used to support the Devine Rights of Kings; it has also been used to support slavery, segregation, and apartheid, and throughout Christian history has been used to keep women from voting, going to college, owning property, from fully participating in the church as ministers or other high offices.

The Southern Baptist Church recently decided that the “clear teaching of the Bible” is that women should be “obedient” to their husbands and they are not allowed to hold senior pastor positions.  It seems kind of silly that here in the US women can be Senators, Congresswomen, Attorneys General, Secretary of State, Supreme Court Justices, Governors, CEO’s of major companies, and All…most…candidate for President of the United States, and yet they cannot become the equal of a religious leader or pastor in your corner church.

Does your God not talk to women?  Does he really feel that women are not to be trusted with His word?

There is evidence that misogynist views were inserted later in some religious writing. The “Mother Church” has always been against women as any kind of leaders in their bailiwick.  Some denominations are trying to break the mold and bring women into the fold and that is causing some big problems for a few of congregations doing this.

Another thing to think about…Many of the old Biblical laws and injunctions are not followed or not even allowed in today’s society; they are recognized as artifacts of a long ago time that no longer have any relevance to our life and times.

Science has disproven a very large part of Biblical claims.  Statistical studies have proven that prayer never works. Most of Genesis and Exodus is proven wrong, both the Catholic Church and many Jewish scholars agree that they are allegorical…just old goat herders trying to explain a world they didn’t yet understand and trying to give meaning to their lives.

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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

9 Responses to Proof of God

  1. Good Morning,

    People of the Christian religion have been trying for 2000 years to prove that their god exists…they have failed…miserably.

    I don’t know if that’s true. I think they have offered up reasonable points as to why He exists and certainly scholasticism offered up a more systematic way of thinking about Him. You can just as easily turn the table and say that atheist have been trying to 2000 years that He doesn’t exists.

    “Divine Rights of Kings”
    Is a political power grab not a theological one. You need to take that up with the political powers not lay it at the door of the church.

    “Southern Baptist Church”

    So freedom of religion doesn’t extend to Baptists? If they chose to not have women in senior positions and women join those religious groups freely what business is it of you or the state?

    “There is evidence that misogynist views were inserted later in some religious writing. The “Mother Church” has always been against women as any kind of leaders in their bailiwick. Some denominations are trying to break the mold and bring women into the fold and that is causing some big problems for a few of congregations doing this.”

    Ever notice the number of religious groups who were Christian that chose to have women leaders embrace new age religions and practices? There certainly free to do so, but their not christian. Their “problems” are funding so I guess they can appeal to the gov’t to support their beliefs.

    “Statistical studies have proven that prayer never works. ”

    I’m sorry I missed when you converted to the church of the blessed Richard Dawkins.

    So science can test for items that aren’t observable by the 5 senses? I didn’t know this field was available yet;>)

  2. thewordofme says:

    Hello Qboa, thanks for dropping by.

    If you tell me that something or someone does exist, then you have to prove it to me as there is no readily apparent manifestation of said thing. I can live my whole life (in fact I have so far) and not bump into anything that persuades me there is a God. In fact everything I look at convinces me there is not one. We all know that in the past the Church hung the threat of death over the head of unbelievers…thankfully now all we have to put up with is peer pressure, and in many Southern states that pressure is fierce.

    The Church throughout history has been on the side of those in power and in favor of the status quo…whatever that was at the time.

    You write:
    “So freedom of religion doesn’t extend to Baptists? If they chose to not have women in senior positions and women join those religious groups freely what business is it of you or the state?

    I have no problem at all with the Southern Baptist Synod. Of course they are free to do what they wish with their theology. I only bring it up because it is one (of many) symptom of something that is broken in religion. I don’t believe there is Gods actual word in the Bible saying that women are second class humans… We do have evidence that ancient (before Christian religion) peoples may have treated women better because of their ability to” create” life.

    “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male or female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

    You write:
    “Ever notice the number of religious groups who were Christian that chose to have women leaders embrace new age religions and practices? There certainly free to do so, but their not christian. Their “problems” are funding so I guess they can appeal to the gov’t to support their beliefs.

    Really, Is the Anglican Church new age? Do you feel they are not Christian?

    ME: “Statistical studies have proven that prayer never works.”

    YOU: I’m sorry I missed when you converted to the church of the blessed Richard Dawkins.

    🙂 Love it. Good ol’ blessed Dawkins. We’re about the same age so I’m not sure who was first in non-belief…I started at age 13

    You write:
    “So science can test for items (prayer) that aren’t observable by the 5 senses? I didn’t know this field was available yet;>)”

    Statistics is a mathematical science I believe, and it is possible to set up tests to determine if something is working or just a statistical anomaly or non-event. Also, remember those poor amputees who have never had their prayers answered, and all the studies on effectiveness of prayer I have seen are negative.

    Regards,
    twom

  3. “Statistics is a mathematical science I believe, and it is possible to set up tests to determine if something is working or just a statistical anomaly or non-event. ”

    Here again is your faith in the material god showing through. All your proof that the only existence is material.

    “Also, remember those poor amputees who have never had their prayers answered, and all the studies on effectiveness of prayer I have seen are negative.”

    God answers pray but its not always the way one would like. Again your thinking strictly material as in a physical healing. The more important aspect is their spiritual life was that healed. It doesn’t matter much if you have the strength of Arnold and the money of Gates, if you have the heart of Hitler.

  4. thewordofme says:

    Hello again Qboa,

    You write:
    “Here again is your faith in the material god showing through. All your proof that the only existence is material. “

    I have no material god and I do not worship the Dollar, Yen, Euro, Yuan, etc., or material “things.” I see no proofs or any kind of evidence for anything but Nature. I know you disagree, as you have to, as a member of the RCC, but there is no magic, demons, angels, or spirits floating around in the “ether” in my humble estimation. All aberrations of the human experience can be explained by natural means.

    You write:
    “God answers pray but its not always the way one would like. Again your thinking strictly material as in a physical healing. The more important aspect is their spiritual life was that healed. It doesn’t matter much if you have the strength of Arnold and the money of Gates, if you have the heart of Hitler.”

    In all of human history this god has not answered even one amputees prayer…literally many, many millions of prayers gone unanswered….but somehow god answers some prayers (at least for a short time) of those sick with lethal diseases (usually by well explained remission) or recover from car crashes, as quite a few do, and it is thought that prayer was the cause.

    A healing of a amputees limb of course would be a true sign of prayers effectiveness, and could not be attributed to anything but a miracle, but we’ll never see this, because prayer does not work…ever.

    twom

  5. TWOM,

    Ok I know we’ve covered this before but again science is in fact based on an assumption and is based on philosophy. Hence you have quite a bit of “faith/belief” in the observable so much so to the exclusion of that which is not seen. In fact its discounted so much that you don’t belief it exists even though you can’t prove it [not that I expect you to do so]. Metaphysics isn’t a strong point for non-theists.

    “somehow god answers some prayers (at least for a short time) of those sick with lethal diseases (usually by well explained remission) or recover from car crashes, as quite a few do, and it is thought that prayer was the cause.”

    I generally agree with you on this point. God heals mans spiritual ills primarily, not their physical ones. If they are physically healed its because of the spiritual health that occurred. Mankind should not expect physical healing from God. I mean the whole concept of the wages of sin is death.The body dies because of a spiritual ill primarily not a physical one. Even nature itself is in conflict because of sin.

    “A healing of a amputees limb of course would be a true sign of prayers effectiveness, and could not be attributed to anything but a miracle, but we’ll never see this, because prayer does not work…ever”

    Ok so if science figures out a way to regenerate an amputees limb you’ll worship the ground they walk on? ;>)

  6. Deacon Blue says:

    You mention, TWOM, that all the studies you have seen show negative effects of prayer. I think that to some extent, your desire to prove your own points is your undoing. I say this as someone who, himself, sometimes gravitates toward those things that support my beliefs.

    It didn’t take me more than a few minutes of Internet searching to find several items that show both evidence OF and evidence AGAINST the power of prayer.

    And, as with so much research out there, pharmaceutical, medical, social and otherwise, it’s usually pretty hard to get an ironclad answer about whether something is truly good or truly bad.

    Just a few of my hits (I figured this offered a fairly balanced overview overall):

    http://www.physorg.com/news93105311.html

    http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

    http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/scienceenvironment/1567/does_prayer_work_do_prayer_studies_work

  7. thewordofme says:

    Hi Deacon, how the heck are you? Nice to talk to you again.

    It has long been thought that the placebo effect was very active in prayer intercession by family and friends. By strangers…who knows? What I do know, or at least think I know, is that there is no consistently…much better…outcome for patients who had someone praying for them. People who are Christians, Jews, Muslims, or whatever…seem to have about the same rate of death or recovery as atheists. There is no…significant…statistical advantage.

    And in matters of prayer for good outcomes other than medical ones there seems to be no studies that I could find and if people of religion were consistently getting their prayers answered don’t you think everyone would be using this method to achieve their dreams of riches and power? Not all Christians are humble and loving like you.

    I’m with you on the use of prayer to perhaps answer matters of spirit and religion…not for secular requests…just doesn’t seem right to pray for winning the lotto. 🙂

    But one must still face up to the fact that there has…never…been a unassailable, absolutely positively magical episode where prayer can be proven to have happened. And there is still those many millions of amputees waiting now and in the past for God to recognize their plight. 🙂

    Physorg article
    ‘Funded primarily by the Templeton Foundation, Herbert Benson and his colleagues at the Mind/Body Institute at Massachusetts General Hospital conducted the “Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Prayer, also known as “STEP.” It is the most extensive and reliable study to date.

    STEP found that after receiving coronary artery bypass grafts, intercessory prayer had no effect on those who did not know they were being prayed for. Those who knew this did somewhat worse, not better.” These outcomes were published in the American Heart Journal.

    NYT article
    “Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

    And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.”

    Religion Dispatch article
    “Patients who were prayed for by born-again Christians they had never met, he argued, had better health outcomes than those who were not the subjects of prayer. A later study, “A Randomized Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit,” led by William H. Harris and published in the Archives of Internal Medicine in 1999, claimed to confirm these positive findings.

    On the other hand, many studies reported negative effects of intercessory prayer, finding (like Benson and colleagues in 2006) that prayer did not improve the health of those prayed for. As time went on, researchers and people who wrote letters to the medical journals’ editors in response to these studies also began to wrestle with bigger questions. They asked how prayer should be offered in such studies, what the right “dosage” is, how intercessors should be trained, and how to handle non-Christian intercessors. “

    I don’t know guy…my gut feeling is no prayers have ever been answered. I know you disagree and that’s cool with me.
    Peace
    twom

  8. Deacon Blue says:

    I don’t see God as cosmic ATM in any way. Too many people do, and that is a source of pain and dissatisfaction for many of them. God is primarily about the spiritual, really, and when prayers are answered in physical ways, it’s not dramatic typically, and it’s not for selfish desires.

    In the end, I credit neither the pro nor the con studies, really. I don’t think the spiritual is able to be pinned down in such ways, nor do I think it is meant to.

    And with scientists trying to figure out where all this so-called “dark matter” and “dark energy” in the universe is (which they need to exist to support current cosmological theories), I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they never find either “dark” item and both turn out to be aspect of God. 😉

  9. Deacon Blue says:

    Ack…lousy transition. I meant to preface my last paragraph above to give it context…that context being that scientific studies themselves can leave many holes and fail to answer many questions, and I wonder if some of those holes (not all, mind you…I believe in the power of science) are related to spiritual things.

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