The Trinity and Hell…2 More Christian Myths

Trinity
“The Council of Nicea met on May 20th 325 AD.  Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council.  “Of one substance with the Father”…overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only signed the creed, many of them much against their wishes.”  Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1970, Volume 6, page 386

The formulation “one God in three persons” was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century AD.  New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, volume 14, page 299

So 300 years after Jesus died some humans, led by a secular pagan Roman emperor, decided that he was actually, but not quite, God, and threw in a spirit for good measure.

Act 7:55 KJV  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God

Act 7:56 KJV And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Hell
“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those that die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell [1], where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”  The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.”  Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 edition, page 270

Ecclesiastes  9:5 RSV   For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes  9:10 RSV   Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [1] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

1 Hebrew…Sheol, Hell
My bold emphasis

People of religion constantly interpret the Bible in whatever way they want.

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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

17 Responses to The Trinity and Hell…2 More Christian Myths

  1. You know I am really starting to dislike cat lovers.

    You’ve sited two secondary sources and drawn a false conclusion.

    I can lead you to water, but not make you drink it;>)

  2. thewordofme says:

    Hi Qboa,

    You know, I really don’t like cats.

    You see I am doing exactly like the proselytizers of religion do all the time.
    I can pick and choose with the best of them.

  3. “I can pick and choose with the best of them.”

    Ouch, now that’s going to leave a mark!

    I’ll stick with the Hubble constant, 74 kilometers per second per megaparsec and God created the universe 13.4 billion years ago give or take half a billion years.

  4. thewordofme says:

    Hi Qboa, I hope you are having a nice weekend.

    You write:
    “I’ll stick with the Hubble constant, 74 kilometers per second per megaparsec and God created the universe 13.4 billion years ago give or take half a billion years.”

    The Parsec is a unit of length/distance equal to about three and a quarter light years or nineteen million million miles.

    The most recent observational determination of the proportionality constant obtained in 2009 by using the Hubble Space Telescope yielded a value of H0 = 74.2 ± 3.6 (km/s)/Mpc. The results agree closely with an earlier measurement of H0 = 72 ± 8 km/s/Mpc obtained in 2001 also by Hubble. In August 2006, a less-precise figure was obtained independently using data from NASA’s Chandra X-ray Observatory: H0 = 77 (km/s)/Mpc or about 2.5×10−18 s−1 with an uncertainty of ± 15%. NASA summarizes existing data to indicate a constant of 70.8 ± 1.6 (km/s)/Mpc if space is assumed to be flat, or 70.8 ± 4.0 (km/s)/Mpc otherwise.

    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

  5. “NASA summarizes existing data to indicate a constant of 70.8 ± 1.6 (km/s)/Mpc if space is assumed to be flat, or 70.8 ± 4.0 (km/s)/Mpc otherwise”

    Assuming its flat, that wouldn’t be good for your position. A transcendent God is most likely true, why try and avoid the obvious.

  6. thewordofme says:

    Hi Qboa, hope you are well.

    Au contraire Mes ami, all of the modern
    evidence keeps adding up and the prognosis for religion is dire.

    God most likely does not exist.

    Magic does not exist.

    No miracle has ever occurred in the presence of men capable of testing its miraculous character…

    “The Christian’s Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes…. The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession — and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
    Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry…. There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.”
    — Mark Twain, “Bible Teaching and Religious Practice.”

    “Then it was discovered that there were no witches.” Boy, that really speaks volumes about religion and its truths.

    This is just one of thousands of things that Christianity try’s to ignore.

  7. LOL, so your attempting to use Mark Twain as the religious authority to refute the Bible? Sorry his knowledge of the bible is shall we say lacking. He wrote for humor and he was very skilled at doing it.

    Christians don’t believe in magic either.

    Big Bang cosmology lends support for God’s existence but frankly science at this point is little more then speculative on any detail. IOW, its simply your opinion against mine. True and faith do not conflict, along with right reason.

    I had a guy who told me that multiverse will be the final undoing of the God theory since Christians only believe in a universe. I said the intent of the term is that God is the creator of everything that exists not that there is only one(uni) verse. I guess science has it KJV wooden literalists as well;>)

  8. In closing the biggest problem I have with science is that they are unwilling to actually follow the evidence. Einstein postulated that the universe was expanding and the galaxies were flying away from each other. He figured out that space and time and matter were all related hence relativity. If one could wind the cosmological clock backward then the universe would cease to expand and begin to contract at which time there would be a point of non-existence and thus the universe would need a cause. None of them could accept that possibility. What would mean gasp the possibility of no we can’t mention His name, because HE can’t exist.

    Hume and his proteges suddenly had a problem because causality was thought to have been wiped out three centuries earlier, just ask Kant.

    The extreme disfavor of secular astronomers and physicists is why theories such as the oscillating universe, the Hawking model, the multiverse and anthropic principles have come into existence. They don’t want to explore the idea that the universe had a cause even though its the most viable explanation given the data.

    The irony in the whole thing is that the more they discover the more it will support the truth of God.

  9. thewordofme says:

    Hi Qboa, how are you?

    You write:
    “LOL, so your attempting to use Mark Twain as the religious authority to refute the Bible? Sorry his knowledge of the bible is shall we say lacking. He wrote for humor and he was very skilled at doing it.”

    Not really using him as a religious authority so much as an example of a clear thinking person who can see the evidence and make good logical conclusions. I like the guys writing and attitude about life and humanity also.

    You write:
    “Christians don’t believe in magic either.”

    Oh yeah, why do they talk about God creating the universe, galaxies, our world, and us humans ex-nihilo? Jesus walks on water, born of a virgin, comes back to life, etc., etc.. I believe all that falls under a display of magic.

    You write:
    “Big Bang cosmology lends support for God’s existence but frankly science at this point is little more than speculative on any detail. IOW, it’s simply your opinion against mine. True and faith do not conflict, along with right reason.”

    I have said on this blog that I could almost believe that some kind of god would start our universe up and then walk/float/speed away and leave us to our own devices. I cannot believe that a god would go through this stupid melodrama that we humans have thought up. I mean, come on…blood sacrifice for eating an apple…naah, no way, sounds like ancient man thinking.

    You write:
    “I had a guy who told me that multiverse will be the final undoing of the God theory since Christians only believe in a universe. I said the intent of the term is that God is the creator of everything that exists not that there is only one(uni) verse. I guess science has it KJV wooden literalists as well;>)”

    Yeah, we do have some of the same problems that Christianity has regarding the occasional
    non-thinker. 🙂

    twom
    #1

  10. thewordofme says:

    Hi again Qboa, thanks for writing.

    You write:
    “In closing the biggest problem I have with science is that they are unwilling to actually follow the evidence. Einstein postulated that the universe was expanding and the galaxies were flying away from each other. He figured out that space and time and matter were all related hence relativity. If one could wind the cosmological clock backward then the universe would cease to expand and begin to contract at which time there would be a point of non-existence and thus the universe would need a cause. None of them could accept that possibility. What would mean gasp the possibility of no we can’t mention His name, because HE can’t exist.”

    The logical explanation now appears to be the ‘Big Bang’ and you go back to the beginning and what do you have?? I sure as heck don’t know. If the universe contracts back to the beginning point does it just go ‘Bang’ again and start over?? I sure don’t know. Was the universe where the Big Bank could happen always existent?? I wish I knew. A God is a possibility and I suppose there are people with other explanations. My trouble with a God is there is no empirical proof at all that I am aware of. The Bible is obviously not real; it falls apart on close examination. The dogma and melodramatic story of the New Testament is a con. Paul obviously made up the ‘original sin’ shtick.

    The real story of mans time on earth totally proves the stories of the Bible (OT) wrong. The path of mans history from 1 AD, under religion, proves the New Testament is a made up con.

    You write:
    “The extreme disfavor of secular astronomers and physicists is why theories such as the oscillating universe, the Hawking model, the multiverse and anthropic principles have come into existence. They don’t want to explore the idea that the universe had a cause even though it’s the most viable explanation given the data.”

    Well I don’t think a scientist would be well received in his community if he is in the habit of saying God did it–we don’t need to explore anymore. I would think that most scientists have this thought in the back of their mind, but as scientists they MUST explore a natural explanation…that’s just how it works in the real world. What do you mean by ‘extreme disfavor of secular astronomers?’

    Just like you can’t admit that birth control might be a good idea in today’s overcrowded world…if you want to keep your standing in your church, they can’t admit that there is a possibility that a god used magic to do things that they are investigating.

    You write:
    “The irony in the whole thing is that the more they discover the more it will support the truth of God.”

    From early times naturalists and scientists have been disproving many things that religious leaders have insisted was already explained by their Bible. Your own church famously went after Galileo…flat earth, God opened windows in the dome of the sky to let rain fall from heaven, the stars are just holes in the dome…that kind of BS.

    Most of the things discovered so far have not supported the Bible and you notice that the apologists are kept busy most of the time as more information about our realm/universe is discovered by science.

    If everything (such as our universe) needs a cause, so does God. I know that this is the oldest argument out there, but it is a salient point that needs a answer just as the Big Bang does.

    But of course you know all of this.

    Peace

    Twom
    #2

  11. Blessings from Fangorn to you,

    “Not really using him as a religious authority so much as an example of a clear thinking person who can see the evidence and make good logical conclusions. I like the guys writing and attitude about life and humanity also.”

    Ok, so IOW you like his opinion because his view and your are similar, but there is no evidence to support your case utilizing him?

    “Oh yeah, why do they talk about God creating the universe, galaxies, our world, and us humans ex-nihilo? Jesus walks on water, born of a virgin, comes back to life, etc., etc.. I “BELIEVE” all that falls under a display of magic. ”

    See you are religious;<) As far as Jesus walking on water and the resurrection we have eye witness accounts of that as well as their willingness to die for that believe. Such testimony is certainly admissible in a court of law. We only have the testimony of Mary on the Virgin birth, so I can't prove that one but it is internally consistent with the rest of the NT.

    "I have said on this blog that I could almost believe that some kind of god would start our universe up and then walk/float/speed away and leave us to our own devices. "

    Well I missed that one. So your not really an Atheist your and agnostic. This is real progress TWOM!

    "If the universe contracts back to the beginning point does it just go ‘Bang’ again and start over?? I sure don’t know."

    Again that is the oscillating universe theory and the evidence is heavily against it.

    "Just like you can’t admit that birth control might be a good idea in today’s overcrowded world…if you want to keep your standing in your church, they can’t admit that there is a possibility that a god used magic to do things that they are investigating."

    Ignoring the moral issue (which is never a good thing) but for sake of discussion the evidence itself is that birth control is a bad practice. Your simply not willing to admit the evidence is real. Hence its simply because you want to believe birth control is good/effective but denied the facts.

    "From early times naturalists and scientists have been disproving many things that religious leaders have insisted was already explained by their Bible. "

    Sure explanations/understanding of the bible have been disproved by the bible (see that's not hard to write now is it). However that does not disprove the bible that disproves the interpretation of the bible.

    "Your own church famously went after Galileo…flat earth, God opened windows in the dome of the sky to let rain fall from heaven, the stars are just holes in the dome…that kind of BS.:"

    No the scientific community has accepted on blind faith false data on the events surrounding Galileo. His observations of the transit of the moons of Jupiter did not prove that the earth rotated around Sun. It was Galileo insistence that the earth rotated around the sun WITHOUT any demonstration or proof of that claim which got him in trouble. He was permitted to teach it as theory but not fact. Such a position today would be more then reasonable, but the scientist would rather believe(there's that disturbing word again) in something without substance then fact when it suits them.

    On the flat earth that was a political propaganda in an attempt to discredit the church. As far as I have been able to tell the disinformation started in the 17th century. There aren't any primary sources about the flat earth prior to that. It's simply a fable, like what you think about the bible only its true and your tales are false.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

    "If everything (such as our universe) needs a cause, so does God. I know that this is the oldest argument out there, but it is a salient point that needs a answer just as the Big Bang does"

    Well to be clear I don't believe that God exists because of the Big Bang. It's simply that the Big Bang supports an ultimate cause of the universe. And all other religious believed that the universe always existed so its convenient as a tool to narrow the field as it were down to just Christianity as the viable religion.

  12. thewordofme says:

    Hi Quickbeamoffangorn, I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday.

    You write:
    “Ok, so IOW you like his opinion because his view and your are similar, but there is no evidence to support your case utilizing him?”

    There is plenty of evidence supporting the fact that there are no witches. I’ve never seen or heard of any real evidence for demons or a Satan or God either, so my guess is there is no such thing…people are just holding on to these old superstitions because they have so much time and energy invested in them, and they give some kind of odd comfort to older people who were brought up believing the con. I don’t know what IOW means…sorry.

    You write:
    “See you are religious;<) As far as Jesus walking on water and the resurrection we have eye witness accounts of that as well as their willingness to die for that believe. Such testimony is certainly admissible in a court of law. We only have the testimony of Mary on the Virgin birth, so I can't prove that one but it is internally consistent with the rest of the NT.”

    I’m sorry but could you point out those eyewitness accounts from the Bible for me. I was under the impression that all references to Jesus in the book were second or third hand and not written by those whose name’s are on the title. As for the story of the virgin birth, it is also consistent with a dozen other god/messiah stories floating around at the time and my guess is that it was used just like the others i.e. gives some kind of credibility to the story in a culture that believed in magic.

    You write:
    “Well I missed that one. So your not really an Atheist your and agnostic. This is real progress TWOM!”

    What you are seeing here is a willingness to accept a God if he can be proven…scientifically. That’s way too big of a decision to believe on faith alone. Until that proof comes along I do not believe. Religion has had three thousand or so years to prove itself and it has mostly proved to be a detriment to our lives, so any proofs for a God has to be pretty darn good.

    Regarding the Big Bang and beginning of earth and life, my gut feeling and most of the evidence I see points to it being all natural and that there is no magic involved…so that’s what I argue. I had not heard that the oscillating universe theory was a real theory and that the evidence was against it (Note to self…keep up more).

    "Just like you can’t admit that birth control might be a good idea in today’s overcrowded world…if you want to keep your standing in your church, they can’t admit that there is a possibility that a god used magic to do things that they are investigating."

    I think I have related to you how I feel about abortion, but just in case…I am very conflicted over the issue. I don’t like or condone abortion, but I am vehemently against government OR religion telling a women what she can and cannot do with her body. Men or the church do not own women’s bodies, and it’s against a womens human rights to tell her she cannot abort a unwelcome baby for any reason. Nuff’ said. 🙂

    Four pillars of the earth, Jesus on a mountain top with Satan looking out over the whole earth, Jesus arrives in the clouds for the whole earth to see at once…at the very least these are hints at flatness.

    Noah’s flood was questioned in the 1600’s. In the 1800’s science was in full swing and now we can question many things written in that book. No question that the church has been dragging their feet…kudos to the Catholics though for almost keeping up and accepting most of the truths of science. A pox on the Fundagelicals and their overwhelming stupidity.

    You write:
    “No the scientific community has accepted on blind faith false data on the events surrounding Galileo. His observations of the transit of the moons of Jupiter did not prove that the earth rotated around Sun. It was Galileo insistence that the earth rotated around the sun WITHOUT any demonstration or proof of that claim which got him in trouble. He was permitted to teach it as theory but not fact. Such a position today would be more then reasonable, but the scientist would rather believe (there's that disturbing word again) in something without substance then fact when it suits them.”

    Was there even anybody in the church of the times who was competent to look into Galileo’s claims? I doubt it, and the only reason he wasn’t burned for blasphemy was his popularity. The church had already killed some naturalists for speaking out on science subjects. The tone of the church was “don’t f—k with us, we know it all.”

    Think of the possibility that Galileo could understand in his mind what was going on with the planets, earth, sun, etc. but couldn’t explain it because he didn’t, at the time, have the math or words to convey it to others.

    You write:
    “It's simply a fable, like what you think about the bible only its true and your tales are false.”

    What tales am I telling that are false?

    Peace
    twom

  13. TWOM:Was there even anybody in the church of the times who was competent to look into Galileo’s claims? I doubt it, and the only reason he wasn’t burned for blasphemy was his popularity. The church had already killed some naturalists for speaking out on science subjects. The tone of the church was “don’t f—k with us, we know it all.”

    Now that really hurts. Not only astronomy but most of science discoveries has come from Catholics. Heck the Big Bang theory came from a Catholic priest. Catholic’s dominates astronomy and wwe have one of the best private current observatories in the world. If you ever look up the names of the craters on the moon most are named after Catholic priests who were astronomers. Father Christopher Clavius

    http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/scientists/clavius.htm

  14. thewordofme says:

    Hi Qboa,

    We’re talking different times and a unrestricted by law church of the times. Lets see the CC go after demons or some such crud today and see how fast they are slapped down.

    I heartily agree that the church sponsors worthwhile activities today, but I also know that given the right opportunity they would put people who have abortions on trial for murder…probably burn them at the stake.

    Somehow the church (they all try, to some degree) cannot get it through their heads that they do not control humanity.

  15. All I would like to hear is that you concede the point that the Catholic church was at the forefront in science especially astronomy. Most of the cathedrals in Europe have solar observatories built into the churches.

    As far as demons go there are basically two today. Protestants have developed a “deliverance ministry” and is very different theologically from an Exorcism. The latter 95% of the cases can be explained by mental illnesses or environmental factors. The majority of the remaining 5% are cases of demonic oppression with a very small percentage of those being actual possession.

    I certainly believe in a personal and intelligent evil being that society calls the devil.

    But even in modern times I think there is something like 20% of the population still believe in fortune-tellers and magicians who cast evil spells.

  16. thewordofme says:

    Hi Qboa, sorry…short post…on way out.

    Italian philosopher Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in 1600 for speculating, among other things, that other worlds could be inhabited.

    I do admit that the Catholic Church in its old age has been doing good science. Needs to work on those morals though. More pedophile allegations coming out in Washington state and Australia.

    twom

  17. Well they didn’t burn that guy quick enough.

    It was the state that put him to death not the church. Condemn the Italian people for validly elected officials who determined that heresy was punishable by death.

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