Prove There Is No Jesus He Says
March 4, 2010 65 Comments
Deacon Blue’s blog HERE issued a challenge to all…
“So, to those of you who want to knock me off my faith, you are going to have to give me credible reason to believe that Jesus never even existed, and neither did the apostles, for you to knock me off my faith.”
And: “Consider it a challenge if you like. If you can provide me with such evidence of those two assertions that it overwhelms the record of the existing sources from which I currently draw my knowledge and on which I base my faith.”
My first reply to him is:
Jesus may have existed, but no one wrote about him in his time. There is real serious questions about Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John’s authorship of the gospels however…I am just going on what people a lot smarter than I say on these matters. Fallout from this position is that we may not know what Jesus actually said (if he existed).
For me however, I go to the Answers in Genesis people and their position that if Genesis in the Bible is not true…the whole of Christianity falls apart.
Well, most, if not all, of Genesis is demonstrably wrong according to what we know about our world now.
The AiG people go to tremendous lengths to try to prove their point, but they are unable to do so.
The science they try to push on an unsuspecting public has been screened time after time by reputable scientists and proven wrong.
They are the same people who opened the “Creation” museum in Kentucky and try to tell us that Jesus rode a dinosaur…well actually they say that dinosaurs roamed the earth with our ancestors and were on Noah’s ark.
Well, we have known for 400 years now that there was never a Noah’s ark and world-wide flood. Most of Christianity accepts this now. The main point of contention left is whether the Adam and Eve story from the Bible could be true.
We know for a fact (this is NOT a theory) that humans did not suddenly appear on earth six thousand years ago or ten thousand years ago or even fifty thousand years ago…this is NOT in question at all. The Adam and Eve story does not, and will not, fit into a scenario where they were created 200,000 years ago. The story also will not support the fact that there were several Homo specimens who preceded us and they had already learned about fire and mastered the making of stone tools before we came along 200,000+- BC
If Adam and Eve are not true…and I posit they were not…then the whole story actually does fall apart. No “Original Sin” no need for Jesus to somehow expiate our non-existent sins. That whole ‘blood’ debt thing is creepy anyway. And God inseminating Mary to conceive Himself so that He can be executed for sins that He created in this world is just plain out bonkers, a truly crazy conceptual idea.
I don’t think there is any shame in admitting that one is wrong…many have done it over this information. It is overwhelming and factual and the Bible is fighting a losing battle against real facts and truth. There is no magic in this world…”
Addendum: So by using circumstantial evidence that we have known as facts for many many years now, one can in a roundabout way throw very serious doubt on the old Jewish myths. The Old Testament (Hebrew writing) is very essential to Christianity and the New Testament today…it is what the whole Christian shtick is based on.
He replies in essence that he believes none of this. So in reply to this I write
You write in your original post:
“So, to those of you who want to knock me off my faith, you are going to have to give me credible reason to believe that Jesus never even existed, and neither did the apostles, for you to knock me off my faith.”
Of what need is there for Jesus if there was no ‘original sin” to expiate??
The Jews of course are adamant that the messiah hasn’t come yet.
They do not write of ‘original sin’ do they…isn’t that a concept that Jesus never heard of??
Isn’t this a concept that was invented in Paul’s writing?
If the Gospels were written by “who knows” (Genesis also) (half of Paul’s epistles too) well after the death of Jesus, and the final Bible took the ‘Orthodox’ Church about 400 years to produce; do you think we, in our times, REEAALLYY know what is true and real, or is there just a small possibility that we got stuff wrong?…really wrong. Remember that the Bible is almost certainly a product of humans (without that “God breathed” thing going on)…way to many problems with it to have a gods official stamp on it.
If you ***really*** get into trying to find the real answers to religion you very quickly come across thousands of problems and questions…this leads you to apologetics which will drive you crazy with the twists and turns of logic and lame answers to serious questions…this in turn leads you to science and all of a sudden things begin to make real sense.
A real and true religion, it seems to me, would not need a search for answers because there would be no anomalies and little things that bother you because parts and more parts of the words are not matching, and the stuff we find out in real life would match up with what is written. The God would be self evident…not an elusive sky will-o-wisp. He could still live in the sky, but there must be some way of proving this God, because us humans are a contrary lot. The old apologetics that you must have faith does not cut it, and more and more young people are finding this out.
In closing; Jesus may have existed as a human person, but he was not “God” incarnate…there is no real proof.
Adam and Eve did not exist…this really puts a crimp in the need for a messiah. And if you don’t need a messiah…what is he?
It goes on…
I realize that you accept some science and that’s a lot further than most fundagelicals go.
I feel however that you somehow can’t accept where it is inevitably leading. I’m guessing that you just push to the back of your mind anything that might make you doubt where you are and where you want to be.
Non-scientific. Do you believe in the “Rapture?” I have it on good authority that if you aren’t “Born Again and believe in the Rapture” you will NOT go to heaven when the trumpet sounds.
I have it on good authority that if you DON’T believe in the Trinity…that God was Jesus and the Holy Spirit all rolled into one (or was it the other way round?) you will burn in hell forever.
I have it on good authority that if you DO believe in the Trinity you will burn in hell.
I have it on good authority that if you don’t believe the precise dogma of “X” denomination you will burn in hell…literally hundreds or thousands of answers to this one.
Do you believe in the Virgin Mary and her (as well as Jesus’) Immaculate Conception? Do you follow the dogma that Jesus had no brothers or sisters (Mary remained a virgin) i.e. an only child…If not I have it on good authority that you will burn in hell–forever.
I have it on good authority that if you don’t believe in Allah and follow the Koran…you will burn in hell forever and possibly be blown up here on earth by fanatic Muslims.
Really do you think this religion is in any way real when it cannot even agree and tell anyone how to comport yourself in this world and the afterlife, or in front of a supposed God.
Do you really believe the present (and past) state of religion on this earth makes any kind of sense??? Do you believe the machinations of untold thousands of religious people for their own personal aggrandizement and profit (think of televangelists and the Catholic Church here) speaks of something “Holy”???
So you think religion is supposed to be this way? All fractured and non-compliant with each other…each one “Knowing” that they are the “only” way to heaven. Each one imputing a God with their own sensibilities and likes and dislikes, each one thinking the “others” are going to burn in hell forever?
The Roman Catholics worship one way.
The Lutherans worship another way.
The Baptist worship another way.
The Pentecostals worship another way.
The Anglicans worship two other ways.
Those Mormon upstarts worship another way.
The Jehovah’s witnesses worship another way.
The Quakers worship another way.
The Orthodox Catholics worship another way.
This could go on for days…but I forget a lot of them.
Each of the above say they worship the same God, but each of them just knows they have the only true and real passage to heaven…all the others will burn in hell forever.
Is this really anyway to run a religion? Is this the indicator of the truth of God? Do you think God wants to be worshiped in 2000 different ways and wants all the hard feelings and strife that goes along with the strong dichotomies that exist in the Judeo-Christian religious world.
God is certainly not living up to His implied abilities. You know…being organized and efficient. Kinda’ laying down on the job as to being all loving…letting all these bad feelings towards each other simmer and blow up occasionally. If He created us He surely knows how we are.
My expectations of a God (sorry if I’m being to prideful here) is of one who is logical, intelligent, very kind to ALL, one who watches out for His experiments (us), and who has pride in His work and craftsmanship. AS well as all the other attributes given Him by philosophers over the centuries…omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc., etc.. Oh, and He would actually answer prayers occasionally…which He never does now.
“In the eleventh century, Isaac ibn Yashush, a Jewish court physician of a ruler in Muslim Spain, pointed out that a list of Edomite kings that appears in Genesis 36 named kings who lived long after Moses was dead. Ibn Yashush suggested that the list was written by someone who lived after Moses. The response to his conclusion was that he was called “Isaac the blunderer.”
History however has proven him to be correct. This is further proof that Moses did not write the Pentateuch.
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The Word of Me... 
“Well, we have known for 400 years now that there was never a Noah’s ark and world-wide flood. Most of Christianity accepts this now. The main point of contention left is whether the Adam and Eve story from the Bible could be true.
We know for a fact (this is NOT a theory) that humans did not suddenly appear on earth six thousand years ago or ten thousand years ago or even fifty thousand years ago…this is NOT in question at all. ”
Without trying to be unkind…this is completely false! How have we known that there was no ark or flood? Where is your proof? (And please remember that the belief of one scientist is not enough to be regarded as proof). What do you mean that men on earth 6,000 years ago is impossible? What do you mean by saying that this is not even a theory? Where is your evidence? Just because most of Christianity now disagrees with the traditional and orthodox view does not mean that the traditional and orthodox view is now wrong; it might mean that most ‘Christians’ are wrong!
Sorry Daniel I will not enter this argument and supply all the evidence that there was NO flood and the earth IS 4.5 billion years old and that MOST of the Bible is WRONG…lies and myths.
The evidence is out there on the interwebs for all to research and I have done the research and wrote about it here.
MANY scientists have wrote on these subjects in peer-reviewed journals and I believe them…not some much maligned (earned) “Creation science.”
If you want to argue the subject show me your facts. 🙂
“Well, most, if not all, of Genesis is demonstrably wrong according to what we know about our world now.”
Who is ‘we’ and what do ‘we’ know that disproves Genesis?
Imagine in this day and age there are still skeptics that base their atheism on theories and hypotheses from some obscure wanna be!
“The science they try to push on an unsuspecting public has been screened time after time by reputable scientists and proven wrong.”
Who are these scientists and what makes them reputable or are you just making stuff up?
How is it that when scientists prove the existence of God they are considered conspiracy theorist and when others theorize that God does not exist they are considered reputable?
“Well, we have known for 400 years now that there was never a Noah’s ark and world-wide flood. Most of Christianity accepts this now. The main point of contention left is whether the Adam and Eve story from the Bible could be true.”
What is this ‘we’ stuff, is this some big secret that only skeptics know?
“We know for a fact (this is NOT a theory) that humans did not suddenly appear on earth six thousand years ago or ten thousand years ago or even fifty thousand years ago…this is NOT in question at all.”
Again with the ‘we’ stuff, where’s your proof? Your proof not some make up crap from Discovery Channel, your proof! Or are you one of those people that borrows what other people theorize and hypothesize and repeat it as though there is truth in it???
Ask yourself why those gurus that you follow around like cattle cannot explain the following from other scientists:
Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 10-2000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!
I could write a fucking book of vague prophecies and I guarantee they will all come true in 2500 years. I can predict there will be another major natural disaster in the next 2500 years with a 100% chance of being right. You are fucking retarded for believing the bible.
Hi Wabd,
What is this ‘we’ stuff, is this some big secret that only skeptics know?
Yes… 🙂
Getting late here…will write more tomorrow.
Dear Mr. Word of Me: You are arrogant, and quite proud of yourself for being able to know all about what the experts say. Sorry for you that you have quoted God… the Father, Son and Holy Spirit out of your life. What a tremendous loss. I hope that whatever you hang your belief system on doesn’t disappoint you. And here is the kicker, whether you believe what the Bible says or not, whether you believe in God or not, it doesn’t change the truth of it all. God doesn’t need science, or you, to validate His existence. Sorry. He existed before science, and He will rule as LORD long after it all disappears, including you and your authorities.
You can quote all the “authorities” you like. You can’t quote God out of existence. I only hope that you get a chance to meet Him and see how amazing He is.
“God doesn’t need science” hahahahaha holy shit that is too good. Thank you for this.
Dear Mr. Word of Me: Please accept an apology from me for the previous post and calling you arrogant and proud. I was a little miffed at what you are writing and are so determined to prove.
Honestly, what I really hear is someone who has been deeply wounded, either by the body of Christ or someone in it, or you just feel abandoned by God and have concluded that religion is a delusion. Which, truthfully, it is…religion, that is. Relationship with a living God is no delusion, but like any relationship, you get out of it what you put into it.
What I do want to say with you, with no apologies is that whether you believe in God or not, He believes in you. There is a major author of the New Testament who had a heart of zeal to prove the people of God wrong…but the zeal of his heart, though wrongly directed, was from God and it didn’t escape God’s notice that that man used his gift to the fullest. God just gave him every opportunity to see it was redirected towards the correct path.
There is no question that “religion” is a mess. There are so many “doctrines” and “declarations” out there that it is enough to discourage and dishearten, perhaps even anger, the best of us. Man has made of mess of what God purposed. But even with the mess of things, God is still a redeemer. And He looks into the heart, your heart, to know what is truly there. He knows your deepest hurts and disappointments, and whatever directions they have taken you, nevertheless, God still yearns to commune with the heart of His child, you.
Whatever has happened to so harden your heart towards God and His kingdom, may I remind you that everything that happens in this world is not always God…there are other realities that want to take us anywhere but towards God.
All that you are writing is truly a cry of grief, and anger is a good cover for that. I for one, hear your heart, because God showed me after I wrote to you the last post. He knows and cares. And just like a Father, who knows that the wounded child’s heart must process, He knows you are just processing. Just don’t wait too long, “word of me”, because even though God yearns for you to come back to Him, like all of us, you were given a certain number of days at the day of your conception. Don’t miss a moment of knowing the God who dances joyfully around you, who wants to give you a robe and a crown and a signet ring. May you have eyes to see and ears to hear…
You write if Gensis is not true Christianity falls apart. Well no. Science has shown how we are all related to 1 man and 1 woman. Even if Original sin never started, then there is still a need for a Messiah to get rid of the sins of the world, but with you nothing is sin so murder and rape aren’t sin, they are natural (according to you.)
For the Bible being false, they didn’t just make up the stories the writers of both the Old and New Testement collected a lot of sources to put them all together.
For the Pentateuch, either Moses wrote them or Ezekiel complied all the information and stories about Israel, what they proberly learned and resited in oral tradition.
At the introduction of Luke and John, they both write how they had to work like a historian would do so, with all different sources to make the Gospels they wrote.
As for you using so many examples of why you would burn in Hell. First of all when Jesus said No one comes to the father but through me. It is hard to know if Jesus was saying about following him, or following the ways of Jesus eg love, peace and charity.
The Jews not believing Jesus as the Messiah is actually because of Bible prophecy what can’t go wrong. One prophecy is about world peace when the Messiah comes, Jesus hasn’t brought this, though if you look at the prophecy saying the Messiah has two missions, you can logically imply that Jesus’ second mission is world peace.
When you say it took 400 years for the Orthodox Church to make the final Bible. You have to take in a lot of factors.
1. Many people were illiterate.
2. They had to translate the Bible into Latin from Greek and Hebrew 2 languages.
3. The church was heavily persecuted before then, so they didn’t have time to tranlate the Bible, mainly because of the lion factor.
Science is not the way. After the French revolution the Jacobins used newly found science (what is from early scientists) to make new law because they were against Catholism and Christianity.
Though when anyone proposed the idea of Christianity, they were killed without a trial. Just because they wanted God’s laws back. Overall in only a few months 40,000 people were killed, the reason this genocide isn’t rememberd at all is because of the Atheist bias in the news.
When you list all the main type’s of Christianity.
Yes there are many types of Christianity, this doesn’t make it less of a true religion. There are also many types of ways Evolution works. A long with many type’s of Atheism, eg miliant, or not really caring and these 2 branch off into many others.
Back to your original point. Don’t all those type’s of Christianity believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah who died on the cross to forgive our sins, that he was raised on the 3rd day? Well they all do!
Not even 1 religion in this world has just 1 denomination.
The God you want is the God who I worship. God does answer prayers these days. You just don’t look at them as prayers. I was watching a show yesterday called gladiators (they have this in America to I think) It was a repeat from 1997. At the begining of the show one of the contestents mother’s prayed, at the end of the show that person won. Now their might be other things but I will show you one from Scripture.
Didn’t Jesus pray to God in Gethsemane? About the crucixion the next day. God didn’t respond back in a thundering thoice. It seemed at 3:00 the next day God wasn’t listening to his own son.
Then 3 days later Jesus appeared to his dicples, though he did not pray about the resurrection in Gethsemane but it seems God works in many ways.
God made the universe so complex, he made us humans so complex, so it seems that God’s mind is truly infinate.
With Isaac the blunderer. This proves my point on Ezekiel, that he comprised all the early history of Israel into the Pentateuch. So it is possible that they by mistake put they list of those kings in Gensis 36 in the wrong place because it might be prophecy (highly unlikely)
Or they had no where else to put it in the Torah so they put it there because of a mistake.
Small holes don’t make a warship sink. Even after a long time!
Plus the fact it mention real kings is still impressive for oral tradition.
Maybe if you pray to God some more he will answer your prayers.
Your ideas are quite good but can be refuted or rethinked (if that’s a word)
Anyway. I am only going to make a few more posts. It seems that none of us can convience the other.
The robot-like responses of people to this post is depressing. But it’s also funny, because these comments are examples of why religious belief is just like believing in Santa Claus.
Daniel wrote: “How have we known that there was no ark or flood? Where is your proof?”
The need to provide proof falls to the person making the assertion. Daniel asserts there was a flood, he is the one who needs to offer proof, yet he offers no proof.
The evidence, of course, shows a lack of such a flood.
Next up, wabd asks, “How is it that when scientists prove the existence of God .”
Since wabd believes science has proven the existence of god, he’s going to Hell, since he’s admitted faith in his zombie god is unnecessary. Wabd, you’re roasting in the flames forever for claiming science, rather than faith, will earn you a pass into heaven.
Your faith is so weak, you invoke the powers of knowledge, and so you are doomed by your own words.
This is great thank you
Kim wrote:
“God doesn’t need science, or you, to validate His existence.”
So Kim, you directly contradict poor wabd’s assertion that we don’t need faith.
Which of you is going to Hell? My money is on wabd, because he lacks total faith. He admits he needs science to help him believe in his zombie god.
But then Kim writes:
“Whatever has happened to so harden your heart towards God and His kingdom”
Let’s not forget that Kim, that god has created everything, including the hardening of hearts.
Let’s not forget that even though Pharaoh was going to free the Jews, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, against Pharaoh’s free will.
God can do what he wants, and he himself has created everything.
It’s obvious to everyone reading Kim’s post that he’s bound for Hell, too, just like wadb.
Sorry Kim, that’s what you deserve for refusing to admit thatGod Himself has hardened twom’s heart. To claim it could be from some other source is pure blasphemy.
For you to deny God’s supreme authority, for you to think you know more than your god knows, to assume your god hasn’t created twof and everything about him, will send you straight to Hell when you die. In fact, since you don’t believe your god is supreme, you’re already spiritually dead and I feel sorry for you.
Justin writes:
“You write if Gensis is not true Christianity falls apart. Well no. Science has shown how we are all related to 1 man and 1 woman.”
Well, Justin, you better get your sorry ass ready for the Grand Roasting. You’ve just claimed science is the way to know your Lord. Have you not studied Kim’s words, above yours, that science is not necessary to know there is a God?
You, Justin, are bound for Hell. Here’s what Kim wrote: “God doesn’t need science.”
See?
“Sorry. He existed before science, and He will rule as LORD long after it all disappears.”
So telling us “science” proves there was a first man and woman is out and out blasphemy. You try to prove your zombie god’s existence with science, rather than faith.
It sounds like you might even be demon-possesed, without knowing it. Do you remember when Jesus helped cast the demons out of some simple villagers? No, in another comment to another post, you admitted you knew nothing of Jesus’ casting out of the demons and placing them in a herd of swines.
And do you know what happened to those swine? Of course you’ve already admitted you don’t, so I’ll tell. Those swine, with those demons, were made to jump off a cliff and drown.
Justin might believe in Jesus with the necessary faith. But the words he’s putting down here about this post say something different. Justin’s words say he thinks he can use science to help him believe in God.
And where would words that will send him to Hell come from? From a demon who’s possesed him. A demon who Justin let into his soul because he let in some Doubt.
Justin – ask your father, or your mother, or your friends, or your minster why you find it necessary to argue that science, rather than faith, shows your god is real. Do it soon, because you could die tomorrow, and at that moment, you’re going to find yourself on the inside a giant oven with no escape. An oven turned on full blast.
(If I’m right, though, that Justin is demon possessed, then I’ve just written some heart-felt advice to a demon, with poor Justin locked away inside, unable to call for help. I could be right, because a demon, rather than Justin, would be just the creature to argue that we don’t need faith alone.)
Here is another demonstration of why I think Justin is not Justin:
“There are also many types of ways Evolution works”
There he, “Justin,” or whatever it is writing this stuff – a demon? – goes again. Now Justin/demon claims Evolution is real.
J/d relies again on science, rather than faith, to help him believe in his god.
Justin, not only is your grasp of science weak, you deny faith. Well, if you’ve let a demon inside you, this is no wonder. But the End for you and the demon will be the same.
You are both in for a very toasty, Endless Summer – and I don’t mean either of you will be surfing in Hawaii or some other tropical paradise – you two will be in the Hell you both so richly will deserve!
How dare you Justin, or whoever you are, claim science can help you know God? (For sure I know one say – your inner demon let’s you make the dare). For shame.
Here’s one more from the demon, who’s been masquerading as Justin:
“So it is possible that they by mistake put they list of those kings in Gensis 36”
Who, pray tell, is “they?” Justin. Are you suggesting the Bible is not the inspired Word of God?
You are claiming the bible can contain a mistake. Well, how could anyone other than an unbeliever, or a demon, make such a claim is beyond me.
Next you’ll be pointing out other mistakes in the bible. Amit to one, and you’ve admitted all of the bible could be a mistake.
You think you are qualified to discuss mistakes in the bible. You are going to Hell for that.
Only God is qualified to admit to His mistakes. You, J/d, wouldn’t admit that. You obviously prefer to overlook Genesis 6:7 – “for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
Yes, your God admits he goofed with his first try with humans, and regrets what he has done.
You would speak for God, though, arguing YOU know where a mistake might be in the Bible.
I say YOU better repent, because only God can know when He made a mistake.
Definitely you should apologize for claiming to know when the Bible – and God – is mistaken.
If you’re demon-possessed, of course, your screwed, Justin, unless you can get someone to pray to Jesus over you. Which is unlikely. Yeah, you’re screwed. Big Time.
It’s obvious to everyone here – twom, Kim, wadb, me – that arguing science shows there is a god and that the bible has a mistake – is sending you to Hell.
(Except for wadb, like you he tries to use science to show there is a god. Maybe you and he will meet in Hell. Hmmmm……..now that I think of it, if YOU are demon-possessed, so might wadb be similarly possessed. I mean, I know he lacks total faith in God; but if he’s going to argue the works of man prove god, then he’s either a liar or demon-possessed.)
One more comment from me about Justin/demon. He (it) writes”
“Your ideas are quite good but can be refuted”
And here’s the refutation:
“Science has shown”
“Evolution works”
No real Christian needs science to believe in God, no real Christian would refute an atheist’s claim with science. Kim knows this (although he’s going to Hell for other reasons – see above).
By the way, let’s take another look at wadb’s claim that science rather than faith can be used to “prove” God exists. He wrote:
“Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten”
There he goes again, using a branch science – mathematics – to “prove” his bible -and therefore his god – are real.
Justin, wadb – or demons – you can’t see you’re going to Hell for arguing that faith alone isn’t necessary to be saved. You both claim science backs you up.
LISTEN to Kim. The part of Kim that speaks the truth about faith, that it’s all anyone needs to know their god.
(But skip Kim’s assertion that something other than God could have hardened twom’s heart. Don’t believe his claim that God hasn’t created everything. We know God can harden a heart, and has hardened a heart.)
Now that I think of it…..Kim not only is Damned for Eternity for such blasphemy, he might also be possessed by a demon.
And it makes sense. Who else would come to an atheist’s website and start claiming we can use science to know God, that the Bible has a mistake, and that something other than God is responsible for anything.
Any of those three apostasies (do you nee help with that word, Justin/demon?) would condemn someone to Hell. Justin/demon is guilty of at least the first two of these, so he is doubly Damned by God, unless he repents and/or finds someone to ask Jesus for help in casting out the demon (unlikely in this perverse day and age).
By the way, I don’t want anyone here to think I’m letting Daniel off the hook, either. He’s definitely going to Hell, sent by his own words.
For Daniel states:
“Where is your proof?”
“Where is your evidence?”
Daniel asks for proof. He asks for evidence. NO evidence is necessary to believe in Jesus and God. Nowhere in the Bible does it call for evidence or proof.
Just the opposite is required to believe in God. Faith, not proof and evidence, is required. Just look at Noah’s Ark. No way could it contain all the animals, including the insects and dinosaurs, all jammed into a boat 450 feet long.
The ark would be too small, if we think scientifically. Which is JUST WHAT DANIEL wants us to do. “Where’s the proof,” he asks. “Where’s the evidence?” “Where,” he asks, “is the beef?”
Well, Daniel, a clever unbeliever would ask just such a question, trying to trap the unsuspecting to come up with proof and evidence for something that needs neither.
Have YOU, Daniel, looked for such proof and evidence, and found them lacking? Then I wonder what you are doing mucking around in the world of man, when you should be striving to act like Jesus.
And if you haven’t looked to see if there is proof and evidence about God or the lack of a god, you have no business asking others to do your own work.
For you, Daniel, are implying that if there WAS proof, you would change your mind about God. You’ve admitted before twom, before Kim, before wadb, before me and before GOD, that you would accept proof and evidnece that God doesn’t exist.
You know where that leads. So do the rest of us. You are bound not for Glory, you are bound for Hell.
You try to sneak in some screwy ideas about proof and evidence for and against God, and you reveal yourself for who you are. A weak believer. A sneaky agnostic or atheist. Or worse. And you know where I’m going with this. Yeah, you do. Deep down inside yourself, if you even still exist, there is a strong possibility you’ve been possessed by a demon, too.
It’s possible that’s the case with Justin (I think especially Justin), with you Kim, with wadb. So definitely, since you follow their same path, slyly intimating that proof and evidence would make you a unbeliever, you could be a demon in disguise.
Funny, isn’t it, how Daniel, Kim, wabd and Justin use anonymous names when they post here? They are all too cowardly to present themselves as real people. Certainly the apostles didn’t shrink from that task. They put themselves on the line.
But not Daniel, Kim, wabd or Justin. They hide themselves. Some might wonder why, but if we realize they have been speaking out of two sides of their mouths, we can see through their twisted words.
Yes, when we see their hypocritical comments revealed, we understand that’s what they are: hypocrites, and maybe worse, much, much, horrifyingly much worse: they might be demon-possessed.
Dave,
God did not create man for blind faith. God created man with an intellect. This intellect is fallen and it can lead us off the path, but it is still God-given. To deny the role of the intellect is to deny the work of God.
First of all, (and I know you will not like this) if God says anything that COULD NOT HAPPEN, then the Bible is false, God is false, etc. However, two thousand years has yet to reveal one mistake. Of course the animals could all fit on the ark. What if scientists ‘prove’ that something in the Bible is wrong? Well, they have been trying to. Each time, in the end, they are proven wrong. So I am not denying faith. I am saying that we look at the evidence, see where it leads us, and then believe, whether or not we understand the details.We are NOT supposed to blindly follow anything. We are to use our God-given intellects (which will point us toward God) and then believe when we don’t understand it all.
I suggest that you not be so quick to judge. God HAS commanded that we judge righteous judgment, but he has not commanded us to make quick, hasty judgments that are not based on fact. That is what you have done. Remember this verse: “He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.” (1 John 4:8). This does not mean that we should be silent about sin, but it does mean that we should act toward others with genuine kindness, desiring the truth to be expressed with love.
Daniel wrote:
“two thousand years has yet to reveal one mistake.”
Don’t tell me this. Tell that unbeliever, Justin. He claims there’s at least one mistake in the bible.
“Of course the animals could all fit on the ark. What if scientists ‘prove’ that something in the Bible is wrong? ”
MY point exactly! I’m glad you agree with me, now. But above, in your earlier post, you asked for proof.
But you’ve done it again, Daniel. You rely on “proof” to make your point. You just wrote:
“Each time, in the end, they are proven wrong.”
You are very confused, my brother. As I mentioned to Justin elsewhere, there are none so blind that they will not see. But your very words reveal you to everyone here who reads them: You call upon “proof” once again to help you belief. Read your own words, above, again:
“Of course the animals could all fit on the ark. What if scientists ‘prove’ that something in the Bible is wrong? ”
They don’t fit because all the animals could squeeze without God’s help into a boat 350 long. They do it with God’s miraculous power. Yet you throw in “proof” about everything God does, when proof is the last requirement.
THAT is why you are going to Hell, Daniel. You don’t actually believe (or maybe you do, or mostly do, but that demon deep inside your mortal soul is speaking for you). Or maybe you just haven’t thought critically about this. Either way, you’re bound for Hell, not Glory.
“[we] believe when we don’t understand”
The Bible nowhere says to believe what we don’t understand. That is another nail in your coffin, why you are doomed to burn forever in Hell.
You believe what you don’t understand? What an easy out for an unbeliever like you. You could believe anything you don’t “understand.” If you don’t understand Hinduism, or Shintoism, or the Muslim religion, or anything else, you get to believe that, too, by your own logic.
To you, it’s OK to “believe when we don’t understand.”
That is why you are going to Hell. Mere lack of knowledge has nothing to do with faith. It has to do with excuse-making. Jesus won’t care about your excuses. He’ll want to know why you doubted him enough to rely on science.
As we see, you’re also in hot water with Kim, who refutes science as a way to know God. You’re in Dutch with me, too. And you’re in deepest doo-doo with God.
Daniel also wrote:
“I suggest that you not be so quick to judge.”
Yet YOU were the first person here to judge twom:
“Without trying to be unkind…this is completely false!”
Not to mention this gem:
“(And please remember that the belief of one scientist is not enough to be regarded as proof).”
Did twom say anywhere that he was informed by the “belief” of one scientist? No. Yet you judge him as if he did.
Worse, you judge me, too, and just as quickly as you think I judged you. You mistakenly think I do not love you:
“He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.” (1 John 4:8).
I loveth you like a brother, Daniel. Yet you think you can read my mind, and you make a snap judgement about me, simply because I believe you are headed for Hell for your apostasy. And of course you are, no snap judgement needed, because you’ve made ugly assumptions here, in front of us all and in front of God.
By your own words, Daniel, you are a hypocrite. “Use proof here, don’t worry about it there; don’t make snap judgements about me here, but I can make snap judgements about you there.”
Look into yourself, Brother. For you and the Snake have something in common – you’re both twisted, the Snake in body, of course, but it twisted words, too, and so do you.
Hello again Kim, Good to hear from you.
You write:
“Honestly, what I really hear is someone who has been deeply wounded, either by the body of Christ or someone in it, or you just feel abandoned by God and have concluded that religion is a delusion. Which, truthfully, it is…religion, that is. Relationship with a living God is no delusion, but like any relationship, you get out of it what you put into it.”
You need to get a refund from your psychology course. 🙂 I have never been wounded by anyone or anything related to religion. I am not some screaming psycho new age atheist. I read and search and learn and find the evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of science… I don’t feel abandoned and lonely, I have a loving wife I have been married to for 35 years, have 5 children and 6 grandchildren who are all great people and doing well. In general I have a good life.
I became an atheist when I was 13 and have never looked back. The only time I have ever had a problem with this decision was when I lived in the Texas Bible Belt for a time. Had a hell of a good time arguing with the natives, but at times was overwhelmed by the stupid argument they gave and their distorted view of humanity. Thankfully the job contract wasn’t very long and I left there with my sanity intact. 🙂
You write:
“Just don’t wait too long, “word of me”, because even though God yearns for you to come back to Him, like all of us, you were given a certain number of days at the day of your conception.”
This is commonly called predestination; do you think this is PC in your particular religious denomination?
This is to Dave Wyman. My goodness, Dave. I just don’t want to address each item point by point. I can, if you want, but, boy… I just don’t see that you are grasping God’s grace. I am not bound for hell, not because I don’t deserve it, but because I trust in what Jesus did for me on the cross. It kind of sounds like you are believing that God sits in heaven with a checklist on each of us, ready and waiting for us to make a wrong move, so we can be condemned to hell.
The whole point of Jesus’ vicarious death on behalf of humanity, was to return to us the hope and promise of life with God eternally. There are no checklists…God looks at me and sees Jesus’ life overlayed on me, because I trust Jesus Christ.
I just would remind you that you are not the determiner of my eternal destiny, and from all that you have written, I am quite thankful for that. Hell is the destination of satan and his unholy angels – we actually determine if we join them there by our refusing Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross.
Calm down. God is good. He calls us to reflect His goodness, not to name call, and make accusations and threats. Good grief.
Kim wrote:
“I just would remind you that you are not the determiner of my eternal destiny, and from all that you have written, I am quite thankful for that.”
May I refer you to an earlier comment in the prior post, by Daniel, who warns against snap judgements, and also asserts that it is right to believe what you don’t understand.
It might very well be true I understand your fate. Just because YOU don’t understand that is no reason to doubt it. At least, that’s what Daniel states. And in fact who before God are you to judge me?
Hello again Daniel, thanks for writing.
You write:
“Without trying to be unkind…this is completely false! How have we known that there was no ark or flood? Where is your proof? (And please remember that the belief of one scientist is not enough to be regarded as proof). What do you mean that men on earth 6,000 years ago is impossible? What do you mean by saying that this is not even a theory? Where is your evidence? Just because most of Christianity now disagrees with the traditional and orthodox view does not mean that the traditional and orthodox view is now wrong; it might mean that most ‘Christians’ are wrong!”
No Sir, not one thing I have written is false. It is all backed up by years and years of continuously re-affirmed science by many experts. Every time science and religion has butted heads, science has been proven right.
Your sounding like a Young Earth Creationist and I’m sorry, but you (and your brethren YEC’s) are totally wrong in your views…proven too many times.
Oh, this is great, to0, from Kim, just a little above:
“I am not bound for hell, not because I don’t deserve it, but because I trust in what Jesus did for me on the cross.”
You admit you deserve, or could deserve, to go to Hell; yet in trusting that, in your words, “Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross” is true, you get a pass?
I don’t think so, my Brother. If you deserve to go to Hell, you go to Hell. Don’t try to pawn off some supposed-Christian splinter-group’s weirdo apology-in-advance for causing harm.
If you or anyone were to perform 1,000 abortions, but believe Christ died on the cross, then what? Immediate entrance into Heaven?
Uh, uh.
Shove thy staff into your offspring, male or female, and see if mumbling this at the end of your life, “I know He died on the Cross for me!” puts you at the right hand of God and Jesus. See, instead, if it puts you next to Kim and wabd and Justin, slowly turning on a spit over a bed of very, very hot coals.
You’ll be on the spit, my friend.
Yes, there IS a checklist, but the items are weighted. Lie to someone but spend an otherwise exemplary life, and you might – might – go to Heaven (if, as you say, you truly believe Christ did die for you, and not out of the fear of going to Hell, which might be the case here).
Fail to pay your taxes once, on purpose, but lead a good life before and after, and yes if you believe, you might just go where you want to go.
But if you admit, to us, to yourself, that you deserve to go to Hell, then a death-bed conversion won’t save you from your what you admit you deserve. That would make God a hypocrite. And that He is not.
I know you don’t understand that, but please note Daniel’s comment, that you can definitely put your faith in what you don’t understand.
Similarly, if you spend a life screwing up, spiritually, say by constantly cheating on your marriage, and/or constantly denying common decency to people of another race, or over the years you serially murdering women prostitutes, or you have sex with male young male prostitutes, over and over and over again, and then fail to pay for their services by threatening to tell their parents, or by not totally supporting your government (whoever is in power, or did you skip that part of the Bible), or if you lie hard enough, long enough, to get people killed, you will end up in Hell, not Heaven.
That’s not my judgement.
To come here, before not just me and the others, but before God, and without apparently thinking it through, claim you will sit with Him even though you deserve to go to Hell, shows how judgmental – and how quickly judgmental – you are.
It is not me calling names. It is you, Kim. How dare you accuse me of making threats and accusations. I do my BEST to speak the truth as God revealed it to me, and it’s the same for all who would actually think about the truth, rather than quickly spout nonsense, as it appears you are doing here.
No way is someone like you, who admits he (might at least) deserve to go to Hell going to get into Heaven.
I love you and clasp you to my figurative breast, and try (but must fail, because it’s not up to me, but I’ll try anyway) to breath figurative life back into your spiritless soul, I will figuratively cling to your legs (if you are male, I don’t want to extend such imagery to a woman if that’s what you turn out to be), even if you try to walk away from me and God. But if you do turn away, even as I grasp you to my breast in most ernest supplication, or if Jesus or a minister (even a youth minister, if you’re a youth) grasps you, and you turn away, you should be ashamed.
Up to know, though, you have merely parroted back what you’ve learned in your own brand of what you claim is Christianity.
I KNOW you try, Kim. I KNOW you mean well. I KNOW you believe in Christ. But flip-flopping, accusing people when you yourself accuse people, is misplaced, is mean-spirited, is leading you to the path to you-know-where.
Think about it (unless, as I posited above, it’s not exactly you making these comments, but some deeper Thing controlling you below even your own level of consciousness. I ask only that you remember what Jesus did with the demons and the swine).
We here already know you doubt God’s power of creation, that you would think something other than God could have hardened twom’s heart (when you know quite well, as I pointed out to you, above, that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart in less than a heartbeat).
To this madness, you now claim you will go to Heaven, even if you don’t deserve it.
Shame, shame, in the name of the Lord, shame.
Daniel, wabd, Kim, Justin, each of you are in or headed for your own, special Hell.
Each of you believe in a mind more powerful than your own. You think about this god with the same childhood view you had for Santa and the Easter Bunny.
You have replaced the childhood view of a fallen parent with a substitute view of an omnipotent parent; you have created a god in your parent’s image, without the weakness of your parent. You have given yourself permission to go on for the rest of your lives in irresponsible behavior, as you can now place yourself outside the concept of responsibility.
Justin is doomed for claiming science helps him believe in God, and for claiming that only he knows what a Christian is. Off with his head.
Kim is doomed for thinking that no matter what he does in this life, he is saved for a better one later, even if he deserves a far worse fate; and he’s doomed, too, for imaging God can’t do everything (that twom’s heart must be hardened by some process outside of God).
Daniel is doomed for thinking proof would change his belief. “Show me proof,” he asks, when he should know there must be no need for proof. He also claims that we can use intellect to come to faith, but in the absence of understanding, in the failure of intellect, he thinks he can believe, too. For Daniel, then, there is no way NOT to believe, and so he is twice doomed. Worse, nowhere does faith count for him. It’s either by intellect or a lack of understanding that he can form his belief; not he leaves out the word “faith.”
And wabd has thrown faith completely away, claiming scientists have proven the existence of God. By casting aside the need for faith, he does not pass Go, he does not collect $200.
If you reflected properly, each of you, it would become apparent (and it’s no coincidence that, in English, “parent” and “apparent” are closely linked words) who God is.
Dear word of me: An atheist who hears from God…Hmmm…Bye Dave.
“An atheist who hears from God…Bye Dave.”
There’s nowhere else for you to go, Kim. And there you go, with a snap judgement, assuming there is but one god, and that god is your god, and the only way to know your god is your way. I don’t have to hear from a god to know about one.
I gave you the answer in my last post. None are so blind as they cannot see.
On the other hand, it seems you claim, as a Christian, to hear from God. He wonderful for you.
And how special that he choses you for such special, two-way communication, when the rest of Christians have only one-way prayer.
Dave Wyman,
(Gen 1:26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
To put it simply, man was given dominion over all things on the earth, science is part of the earth’s evolution from its birth as recorded in the book of Genesis. It was a branch of science that helped in the creation of stationery that is used to have the bible written in many languages. Speaking of languages, it was science that aided in the dating of the original scrolls that proved their authenticity. Christians don’t condemn science Dave, you do though, every time it goes contrary to your belief/disbelief whatever. Did you know that another branch of science – astronomy discovered that 24 hours of the earth’s cycle was missing, and a Christian Scientist provided the scriptures to validate where and when the missing 24 hours went. Oh! it was science that was used to create computers and the internet or was it Al Gore? Anyway a lot of us Christians use these remarkable inventions from science to teach and spread the word of God.
From the number of comments you have posted here in such a short space of time it is clear that you have not understood any of the comments from the other writers. Notice I said ‘understood’ and not fully understood. This is because you are forever searching and never finding. This must be very frustrating Dave, can’t say that I know what you feel, haven’t felt that way since God called me to faith….it’s all in the very distant past now.
The hypocrisy of atheism is what was being challenged here Dave, look at the original post where the author wrote about a series of ‘good authorities’ that he got information from to aid in his belief system. When he was then confronted with the mainstay of his belief – ‘science’ for the most part, and their lack of agreement on practically anything, you couldn’t resist and jumped in head first. This is just one of the ways God reveals Himself and His sovereignty – here you are full of condemnation, proud and cocky, strutting your stuff and all the while God was using you to reveal Himself; Jesus said when all the world hates you, remember they hated me first. Thanks Dave for hating us and likening us unto Christ. Oh yeah condemning people to hell isn’t the same as wishing them happy birthday…
Here’s the irony; the more you try to disprove the existence of God, the more you prove the existence of Him. You have condemned Kim, Daniel, Justin and I to hell, but hell or rather the lake of fire is where God is going to send those whose names are not written in the book of life.
Dave, if you don’t believe in God then how can you believe in a place (hell) created by Him? You are the hypocrite Dave, tell the truth, you are closet Jesus freak aren’t you? There’s no shame in admitting that – Real men love God!!!
BTW – when God hardened Pharaoh’s heart it was to show the Egyptians that He (God) is the God of the Jews. Slow your role, read and try to understand what you are reading, not too sure if it is possible though – remember always searching but never finding!
Oh yeah, science does prove the existence of God, but that has nothing to do with an individual’s faith. Faith, is a gift from God to those He calls to believe in His Son for their salvation. Christians cannot mess up faith Dave, so what you have been saying about science/faith/and all of us are going to hell blah blah blah is truly crap.
I’m gonna make you my special special friend, the more your display your disbelief and condemnation the more I shall praise God for revealing Himself to me in ways I didn’t think was possible. Dave! you rock man….can’t wait for next series of incoherent drivel….
Hi Wabd,
You really need to check out the source of the following quote from your post above.
“Did you know that another branch of science – astronomy discovered that 24 hours of the earth’s cycle was missing, and a Christian Scientist provided the scriptures to validate where and when the missing 24 hours went.”
That is Not true at all. It is a creationist attempt to deceive those who don’t know any better. One of my hobbies is astronomy. There is info on the interwebs about this lie…I suggest you look it up…repeating the story makes you look silly
wabd wrote: “It was a branch of science that helped in the creation of stationery that is used to have the bible written in many languages.”
Do tell? Which branch of science was this?
“Oh yeah, science does prove the existence of God, but that has nothing to do with an individual’s faith.”
But he won’t point to where that proof can be found.
He relies on science out of one side of his mouth, and out of the other claims, “Faith, is a gift from God to those He calls to believe in His Son for their salvation.”
There is no point to the gift of faith if we turn to science for proof which, with faith, is unnecessary.
He wants it both ways. That is why he is Hell-bound. Either he believes totally with faith or he don’t.
“This is because you are forever searching and never finding.”
Wabd judges me without knowing me. It’s because he uses telepathy to speak to his Father that he thinks he can read the minds of humans.
“This must be very frustrating Dave”
There he goes again, reading my mind, but wabd follows that – in the same sentence – with this:
“can’t say that I know what you feel”
Can’t make up his mind, can he?
“he [twom] was then confronted with the mainstay of his belief – ’science’ for the most part, and their lack of agreement on practically anything”
Some confrontation – not a single example of the lack of agreement has been offered anywhere on this page – only in wabd’s mind. I would like to see him illuminate for us one point of scientific disagreement he or anyone else listed here.
Well, wabd?
“here you are full of condemnation, proud and cocky, strutting your stuff and all the while God was using you to reveal Himself”
If I’m revealing God, it’s through God’s desire, who has created all things. Wabd should feel ashamed for calling me cocky and proud. Let all who come here note the wadb is not just criticizing me, he’s criticizing God’s plan to make me the vessel pouring out His spirit.
Yes, if he criticizes me, he also criticizes God, who knew in advance how I would act; He knew because He created how I have acted, to. He created everything, including science.
It doesn’t help that wabd is unaware of this basic contradiction, that is, condemning what God created while praising Go for revealing himself through me. Wabd’s world is filled with contraditcions.
This is why wabd is going to Hell – he denies the truth, he is critical of his God’s creation (me), and he claims he doesn’t need faith to believe in God.
And there’s this:
“when God hardened Pharaoh’s heart it was to show the Egyptians that He (God) is the God of the Jews.”
Which Egyptians? Surely not the Egyptian first born, as he killed them. Did He bother to tell the Egyptian army before he drowned it?
How interesting it is that God had to kill children and soldiers and animals, and took away free will, to show he was God of the Jews. With his ability to kill, He must have been the God of the Egyptians, too.
From wabd’s comment, though, he seems to deny that God is in charge of everything; just the Jews. And so for publicly doubting God, wabd is going to Hell.
Dave, you seem pleasant.
I did not make up God to suit me, I didn’t really care about God or Jesus I just believed them without a knowing
Then I started reading the Bible, in a time of need, then I started to research more. Looked at the Messianic prophecies looked at the science in the Bible looked at historians who wrote about Jesus.
You don’t want to believe the Messianic prophecies because of your ignorance, and you just make up silly excuses.
Science in the Bible.
Genesis 22:17 Stars and sand are same amount
Jerimiah 33:22 There are lot’s of stars
1Corinthians 15:41 Each star is differnent
Jerimiah 31:35,36 The universe is moving
Job 26:7 The earth hangs on nothing
Ecclesiasters 1:6 Circulation of atmosphere
Job 28:25 Poetic version of fluid dynamics
Leviticus 17:11 Biology
Genesis 1:11,12 Evolution
Genesis 1:21 Evolution
Genesis 1:25 Evolution
Genesis 2:7 Chemical nature of flesh
Genesis 3:19 Chemical nature of flesh
Proverbs 12:4 Mental health is linkes with physical health
Proverbs 14:30 Mental health is linkes with physical health
Proverbs 15:30Mental health is linkes with physical health
Proverbs 16:24Mental health is linkes with physical health
Proverbs 17:22Mental health is linkes with physical health
Job 30:5,6 Cave men
Pslam 135:7 Hydrologic cycle
Jeremiah 10:13 Hydrologic cycle
Job 36:27-29 Hydrologic cycle
Eccelesiasters 1:7 Recirculation of water
Isaiah 55:10 Recirculation of water
Job 26:8 Water condensation in clouds
Job 37:11 Water condensation in clouds
Genesis 7:11 Hydrothermal vents
Job 38:16 Hydrothermal vents
Jeremiah 31:37 Earth’s crust and astrology
Isaiah 40:22 Spherical earth
2Peter 3:10 Basic physics
Matthew 24:30 Possible television
Revelation 11:9-11 Possible television
So these passages are in the Old and New Testement. They are a poetic way of the dicription of basic science not discoverd until Copernicas, Kepler, Galileo and Newton. Some THOUSANDS of years later. Even before Aristotle
Historical refernces to Jesus.
Eusebius of Caesara 3rd century historian who used the library in Caesara to write about Jesus.
Flavius Josepthus a 1st century Jewish historian who documented the Roman Empire. Josepthus mentioned the Crucifixion of Jesus under Pilot and how his diciples and others claim the Ressurection.
Justin Martyr (my favourite!) Pagan philospher who studied Christianity to later become a Christian before Martyrdom.
Philo of Alexandria a 1st century philosopher and historian.
Tacitus a 1st century historian who studied the lives of Emperors.
Tertullian an African theologian.
The early Church fathers eg St Peter, St Paul, St Clement of Alexandria and St Augistine of Hippo. (many more I couldn’t think of)
So from this we can conclude that Jesus was real and was crucified under Pilot, and maybe came back to life. Remember this is from NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES. So saying Jesus never existed, would mean you would have to denouce all of the historians, philosophers and theologians I have listed in the other paragraph.
So stop denying history, and don’t be to ignorant towards the Bible.
Hi again Justin,
Sorry to take so long here. So much posting going on I had a hard time keeping up with it all as I had some other stuff to keep up with also.
You write:
“You write if Gensis is not true Christianity falls apart. Well no. Science has shown how we are all related to 1 man and 1 woman. Even if Original sin never started, then there is still a need for a Messiah to get rid of the sins of the world, but with you nothing is sin so murder and rape aren’t sin, they are natural (according to you.)”
That is the position that the religious Creationist web-site “Answers in Genesis” takes…go there and check out their reasoning. Here is a link for you: http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Science has NOT shown we are all related to 1 man and 1 woman. Where do you get this stuff? Mitochondrial DNA has shown that all women on earth are related to one woman in Africa who lived about 160,000 years ago and all men are related to one man, also in Africa, who lived about 60,000 years ago. The very DNA in our bodies is traceable waaaay back in time, and we are ALL traced back to Africa many tens of thousands of years ago…check it out, all the info is on the web.
I think I mentioned this matter to you awhile back. Do you remember me mentioning the study that IBM and National Geographic did on genomics? Here is a link for you: https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html
The whole site is pretty interesting and this is the kind of references that atheists will bash you with. Study hard…
As you study this info from National Geographic do remember that this is the science that is often used to send crooks and rapists and murderers to prison…that’s pretty convincing evidence that it is known to be real truth.
I don’t think I ever mentioned or stated that I believe rape or murder was natural. They are crimes against humanity, not natural.
You write:
“For the Bible being false, they didn’t just make up the stories the writers of both the Old and New Testement collected a lot of sources to put them all together.
For the Pentateuch, either Moses wrote them or Ezekiel complied all the information and stories about Israel, what they proberly learned and resited in oral tradition.
At the introduction of Luke and John, they both write how they had to work like a historian would do so, with all different sources to make the Gospels they wrote.”
I sorry to disillusion you again Justin, but you need to get your info in order if you expect to survive the bashings from atheists. The atheists study the Bible pretty hard, and as you will find out eventually, most of them know it as well or better than you do.
Moses probably did not write the Pentateuch. It was most likely written by at least 3, probably 4, different scholars/rabbi’s somewhere around 600 to 400 BC…Moses was waaay earlier than that; about 1400 to 1500 BC…IF he existed at all.
The Gospels were most likely not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Well John is probably written by John, but we don’t know for sure which one. Check it out on the web. Google who wrote gospels and go to sites that are not religious…you will not find good scholarship on religious sites…they want you to be an unthinking robot and believe the dogma they dispense. There are many facts out there in the world that religious leaders do not want too many people to know.
I have to sign off now, it’s late and I have much to do tomorrow. Good luck in your studies.
Thanks, twom.
With Evolution, it doesn’t really matter for me, Genesis seems to talk about it, but I am still not sure.
I didn’t say Moses wrote the Pentateuch. I said Ezekeil complied all the information and history about Israel. He did this because they were so shocked how Yahweh could let this happen but instead of worshipping other gods they realised all the bad things they have done to Yahweh. They felt homesick and wrote down their history.
The Pentateuch was not just camp fire stories. Rabbi’s would resite them in the Temple, and they would tell their childern about them.
Oral tradition is not as bad as you think. Before most writing, there was simply historians who would have to remember it all and talk about history. This was in most of the ancient world as well.
Shakespeares plays. The actors he used had to remember 100,000s of lines! they remembered it all to write Shakespeares plays after William had died.
Even today, there are many historians who use oral tradition. In Ireland it some small villages they use it.
For the Gospels. If they were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John then wouldn’t this back them up? For the reason that the they were scribes, who wrote this from a diciple or eyewittness.
Though they still must have been written by them, for the reason that Luke and John have introductions on what they found.
Matthew and Mark, though they don’t have introductions they were still written by them because they were named after them.
Like how Thomas Clarkson’s essay on the human species. Was written by Thomas Clarkson.
One last thing. I love debating with you, we learn more about new ideas. Though I am only going to post a few more comments.
Dave you are like that character on the Mummy 2 that was claiming everywhere to be cursed, ‘this place is cursed, that place is cursed, over there is cursed, right here is cursed… just like your condemnation, Kim is going to hell, Daniel is going to hell, Justin is going to hell, Wabd is going to hell. You are like a cartoon man, I instructed you in my last post to read and understand before you comment. You did not heed my instructions and made a fool of yourself yet again.
If you are incapable of understanding simple comments then you need to ask for explanations, not draw conclusions that have no merit to what the commentators have written.
Let me give an example of your dubious misunderstandings; “If I’m revealing God, it’s through God’s desire, who has created all things. Wabd should feel ashamed for calling me cocky and proud. Let all who come here note the wadb is not just criticizing me, he’s criticizing God’s plan to make me the vessel pouring out His spirit.
Yes, if he criticizes me, he also criticizes God, who knew in advance how I would act; He knew because He created how I have acted, to. He created everything, including science.”
Not because God used your ignorance to reveal Himself that makes you special Dave, you are however my special special friend. God chose Judas, Pilate, the Pharisees etc to murder His Son so that our sins may be forgiven. God used two cows to carry the Ark of the Covenant to the Israelites, God caused a donkey to bear His Son’s journey into Jerusalem.
Do we lift them up? No Davey Boy we don’t, we lift up God by obedience and faith in Jesus. You are ill-equipped to understand these things Dave, you are way over your head. Your cockiness and pride blinds you from the obvious and chains your mind in a state of perpetual confusion. There is no evidence that I said I don’t need faith to believe in God – this is an example of your lack of knowledge to discern the obvious.
If you can, answer this simple question, ‘on a scale of 1 – 10, 10 being the highest, how difficult is it for the devil to ensnare the souls of men for himself? Hint…how important is a dung beetle in the grand scheme of creation?
PS @ thewordofme,
“One of my hobbies is astronomy. There is info on the interwebs about this lie…I suggest you look it up…repeating the story makes you look silly.”
You provided an incredible résumé about your qualifications in astronomy, so I will concede that you have more knowledge that others who study these things as a life pursuit. You know what is silly, the fact that you have celebrated your hobby as a degree. Give me a break!
Hi Wabd, thanks for writing.
You write:
“You provided an incredible résumé about your qualifications in astronomy, so I will concede that you have more knowledge that others who study these things as a life pursuit. You know what is silly, the fact that you have celebrated your hobby as a degree. Give me a break!
I’m giving you a break dude.
Look up that myth on the internet…it is the people from NASA who are saying it’s not true, not me–I’m just passing the info along to you.
The only reason I mentioned my hobby is that I keep track of NASA on the web just about everyday and they had a Q&A session and that was one of the questions.
But, if you wish, continue to use it and be the recipient of laughter. I was trying to be nice…
Wadb, you’re not only brainwashed, your rude. Calling me “Davey Boy” won’t win you points with me or anyone else, but it certainly speaks to your character, or rather lack thereof.
Which is but another reason that as a hypocrite, you are going to end in the Hell you fear. You’re already half there, with your name-calling. You’re certainly not at peace if you have to stoop to that level.
“I instructed you in my last post to read and understand before you comment”
Well, pardon me, your most exalted highness, for my daring – in your mind – not to understand your last post.
“how difficult is it for the devil to ensnare the souls of men for himself?”
First answer my question and I’ll consider answering yours. “Do you still beat your wife?”
That you don’t see the connection between those two questions indicates why you’re brainwashed.
“God chose Judas, Pilate, the Pharisees etc to murder His Son”
And so you claim God has chosen me to be cocky, just as he chose Judas to be a murderer.
We can all see by the above that you reject the claim that God gives us free will. According to you God, not Judas, chose Judas to kill; and so you claim God chooses me to be the way I am. Yet you also claim humans have free will.
It’s another example of brainwashing that you exhibit, as well as the basic human ability of many to hold at least two contradictory thoughts at the same time, and not realize it.
God, in your bifurcated mind, “chooses” who will murder, yet God has no responsibility in the matter. God chooses to make me cocky to reveal His purpose, but he’s not responsible for making me cocky.
No one should put their trust in your words, for they don’t make sense.
Of course, you have completely failed to answer my single question to you in my last comment: show us where twom presented conflicting scientific statements, or where anyone else here did that, as you claimed.
You want me to follow your “instructions,” but you’re incapable of answering my one question.
As for the importance of the dung beetle in the grand scheme of creation, first, forms of life and the formation of life itself have nothing to do with creation. You have mistakenly conflated the two concepts, creation, and the Theory of Evolution. They are not the same, even if you think they are.
In the grand scheme of life on earth, though, the dung beetle is just as important – or unimportant – as are humans. In fact, there is but one species of human, and some 230,000 species of beetles, so perhaps God is more interested in the dung beetle than he is in you (but he takes special interest in me, for he’s let me warn you that you’re on your way to Hell).
Everything that happens in this world is interconnected to everything else. Both the dung beetle and humans are here; quite possibly without one, there might not be the other, because the conditions that allowed the one to evolve allowed the other to evolve, too.
So if I were you, I would give thanks to God that the dung beetle is here, for without it, you might not be here. You should realize that both the dung beetle and I am here to enlighten you, although you turn away from both of us.
Here are a few more – rhetorical – questions for you:
As Justin claims, does Matthew 24:30 predict television? Does Revelation 9:9 predict television, as Justin claims? Does Genesis 7:11 discuss hydrothermal vents? Is Jerimiah 33:22 an example of scientific thought in the Bible?
And here’s a question I’d like you to answer:
Is Justin correct in claiming the the Bible discusses the Theory of Evolution in Genesis?
He claims this is so with this passage:
Genesis 1:12 “And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Justin thinks this shows that the Theory of Evolution is real. If you disagree, then I have to choose which Christian to believe, you or Justin – or perhaps I’d be better off believing neither of you and let the two of you fight it out.
Maybe you aren’t a real Christian, and Justin is.
By the way, when you write that my “misunderstandings” are “dubious,” it means they might not be “misunderstandings.”
Thanks for that, as it’s another example of your hasty, imprecise thoughts. And just another example of why you’re at least half in the Hell you’ll end up in completely.
@ twom and Dave,
From your respective responses to my last post, I sense hurt maybe disappointment, a bit of anger, even some dejection.
Now you know how you guys make us feel when you exhaust every opportunity to ridicule our faith. It’s not that we lack faith that we are affected by your comments, it’s the love that we as Christians have for the word.
Dave immediately started to condemn everyone to hell, twom plays the good guy bad guy role. Gentlemen imagine how that guy who came a couple of thousand years ago and died so that our sins may be forgiven feels when His own creation turns against Him and those He calls His own. Before you presume to think what others feel and think, try thinking about the ramifications of your own action. You got a couple of sly comments from me and you launched again.
I don’t know any of you or any other of the commentators on this blog, but I know Jesus! That’s enough for me and it should be enough for you as well. Look around you gentlemen, is this the life you want for your loved ones? Why do you persist in following things that do not glorify God. At every possible instance you condemn rather than praise or offer guidance. Justin is obviously a babe in Christ and he needs help to understand, you chose to trample the mistakes he’s made. What gives you that right? Did you die on the cross for him? The Man who did has not condemned him but you do!
As for your question Dave, “Do you still beat your wife?” My wife nearly died a few months ago while pregnant with our last daughter. She went into a coma and the doctors had to do an emergency caesarean. This week our premature baby has been hospitalized with a lung infection because her immune system has not fully developed. It’s because of my faith in Jesus that my wife is alive today and it’s that same faith that is going save our baby.
This is my last post on this blog. I came to bring a message and I did so. I can only hope that you pay attention to what you are writing and the long term effects it would have on your own salvation. God bless everyone that has commented here according to His will and purpose.
Wesley Abdul
Dave,
I am not here to argue. Let me add a few more words, and then I will cease.
Are you saying that I am ridiculous to say that I believe what I do not understand completely, but you believe something when you have no proof?
Are you saying that our God-given intellect is useless?
When you say that the Bible nowhere says that we are to believe what we don’t understand, that you completely understand everything in the Bible? If so, please explain a lot to me. If not, why did you say that?
I am now dropping out of the discussion. I am not afraid of answering more, etc. but I feel that there is no purpose. I am not here to argue.
Hi Wbd or Anonymous,
First Wbd, I am not doing a good guy bad guy routine…If you go to any of my blog pages and scan the comments sections you will see this is how I am. I argue, not attack.
Regarding my telling you about the “Lost” 24 hours, my motives were good as I explained in my last reply to you. It REALLY is a lie, an urban myth as it were…check it out on the web.
I cannot account for David and how he feels, and I do not debate and argue that way.
I reread my post on this page and I don’t feel I write anything despicable or mean, I just wrote about things that I have studied and read about, and they are NOT something I made up…all this info is available in many many websites and books.
I like to debate Christian followers because it’s fun and many times informative and for the most part I like my opponents…they seem like nice people and many of them come back to argue with me again on another subject.
At any rate, I wish you a good life and I hope your wife and child recover fully…don’t be a stranger.
Wesley – or whoever you are – I wish the best for your wife and child.
That you ascribe your wife’s survival, and your daughter’s recovery, to your belief in Christ, though, is the height of arrogance.
Because they don’t believe in Christ, you actually believe other men’s wives and babies will die. Yes, you are arrogant.
“Why do you persist in following things that do not glorify God.”
Uh……because I might be an atheist? You’re question is like me asking why you persist in a belief in god.
“imagine how that guy who came a couple of thousand years ago and died so that our sins may be forgiven feels when His own creation turns against Him ”
Considering he’s supposed to be all-powerful, you’re god must feel like an awful dufus for screwing up in the manufacture of his creations.
“Justin is obviously a babe in Christ and he needs help to understand”
Hold up a mirror to yourself, Wesley: can’t you see you’ve quite possibly described yourself?
“Dave immediately started to condemn everyone to hell”
Not in my power, Wesley. You do that to yourself.
“This is my last post on this blog.””
I apologize, twom, for driving Wesley away. I’ll stop my evil ways and if I return here, I promise to do my best to always offer a far more civil tone. I think I promised that before and just forgot about it. Forgive me if you can.
However, for now: Of course Wesley is calling it quits. His kind always lacks the courage of his proclaimed convictions; he has no staying power.
Dave, your so pleasent, ‘Off with his head’
Ah the spirit of Atheism.
Along with Stalin and the Jacobins.
You just made me not believe in evolution anymore, I hope your happy, unconverting me.
Your so ignorant. God’s plan is God’s plan, it was meant to be the way since before the universe was made. Before time, space and matter.
I am not a babe in Christ, why are making insults. How would you like it if I said your a babe in Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennet, or Christopher Hitchens, or Sam Harris. Now who looks gay.
I have many and I mean many problems with your religion, Atheism.
1. Kills people.
2. For the reason of no law.
3. Blacks are less evolved, racism.
4. Ignorant of other religions.
5. Always seeking but never knowing.
6. Daniel Dennet is a good philosopher.
7. Blaims religion for evil, doesn’t evaluate itself.
8. Denies roles in communism.
9. Lustful followers.
10. Don’t read or explore other religions.
11. Anarchy.
12. Let’s conquer and ‘fuck up’ western Europe.
13. Science is the only way.
14. Falsely lead by decievers.
15. Nature is our god, but were still Atheists.
16. Homosexuality is natural.
17. Abortion is a woman’s right.
18. Hate religous people.
19. Thinks Bible is B.S, yet they don’t read it.
20. Jihad means Holy war.
21. Everythings a theory, apart from science.
22. Masturbation and porn are natural.
23. Masturbation and porn is not a drug.
24. Spiderman is proof God is not real.
25. The BNP don’t support rape.
26. Magic mushrooms are natural.
27. 9/11 is proof there is no God.
28. Deny Bible prophecy.
29. We don’t use circular reasoning you do.
30. Let’s make evolution happen on Mars.
31. The universe made itself.
32. 3+3=900000. (that’s Atheism.)
So you see why I am not an Atheist.
See ya Dave, good luck.
God bless your country, America.
Dollar bills “In God we trust”
God bless you.
Oh yah, you seem to not comment on the historians who wrote about Jesus.
Silence, that’s all you can say.
Please let me know who these historians are. I would love to know.
Justin – you’re back? You’re the guy who’s going to Hell for claiming science proves there’s a god, when your religions teaches faith is necessary.
Now you’re claiming history proves there’s a Jesus! Which is another reason you’re headed for a very, very hot Hell. Either you believe or you don’t, and since you’ve stated you rely on science and history, you don’t fully believe in your god.
Of course, there are no historians who lived during the time Jesus was supposedly around, so not only do you exhibit a lack of faith, you show ignorance, too.
Justin, it’s so difficult too fathom that you could actually be anything other than a troll.
Your comments are so strange they defy description, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re giving us your honest thoughts.
To answer a coupe of your comments, like this one:
“I am not a babe in Christ, why are making insults. ”
I didn’t write that you were a babe in Christ. Someone else here – wadb – did.
That would you confuse me with somebody else, as you’ve done at other points on this blog, means you aren’t paying attention, or you’re a troll.
One more: “Oh yah, you seem to not comment on the historians who wrote about Jesus.
I have, to you, on this blog. You either have a memory problem or you’re a troll.
I’ve said that historians who write long after an event occurred, who don’t use primary material, like eyewitness accounts (written or spoken), can’t be used as proof that something happened.
Historians long after the fact of American George Washington death never met him. But they can read newspaper stories about him, letters people wrote about him, letters Washington wrote, magazine articles and books about him, speeches stored in government archives, etc.
All this is primary evidence. All the historians you mention had no such material to work with. So what they have to write isn’t proof Jesus existed. In fact, there is zero evidence written about Jesus at the time of his supposed life.
Keep ’em coming if you want, Justin.
If you don’t mind – and twom doesn’t mind – I may post some of your comments, Justin, on my blog, because what you have to say makes for the funniest reading about religion – and Christianity, of course – I’ve ever been privileged to see.
Dave.
Many were not literate in those days.
Plus why would people in the time of Jesus write about him? He was a Jewish carpenter. I don’t think any other carpenter in history has had historians write about him.
“Plus why would people in the time of Jesus write about him?…I don’t think any other carpenter in history has had historians write about him.”
You are TOO funny.
Do you have any favorite sports stars, or movie stars? Do you know about any historical figures?
You don’t know much about them as children, and you know plenty about them as adults.
Yes, who would be writing about a Jewish carpenter, indeed, or his childhood? In fact, we know nothing of Jesus’ childhood: his friends, his escapades, his favorite food, etc.
But not to write about someone after he performed miracles before thousands, and was resurrected from the dead?
In the U.S., little or nothing was written about Abraham Lincoln or George Washington, or John F. Kennedy, or Micky Mantle or John Travolta or Marilyn Monroe while they were children or when they toiled in ordinary lives before they became famous.
That’s why we know Jesus was imaginary, dreamed up long after the fact, legends about him culled from other legends: Jesus, despite the amazing story told about him long after he supposedly lived, wasn’t famous.
The man who the son of god and also god, who proved it over and over again with miracles performed amongst the multitude, who was crucified by the Romans, and who rose from the dead an appeared again before so many people, get’s not a mention in history until long after his supposed passing.
Considering Jesus was supposedly his own, all-powerful father, it would have been a snap for him to order up all the written eye-witness testimony he needed to prove he was for real.
He should have been able in less than an eye blink to make sure reports of his supernatural powers would be reported on by authorities, sent to Rome, preserved, and revealed to the rest of the world.
But this supposed god is such a pathetic schlep that he can’t figure out how to publicize himself during his own lifetime.
By the way, whether you’re as childlike as you seem or a troll, using a swear word and making fun of someone’s sexuality crosses the line. If I had any respect for you, it’s gone now.
(1Ti 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(1Ti 4:2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(Psa 2:1) Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
(Psa 2:2) The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
(Psa 2:3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
(Psa 2:4) He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
(Psa 2:5) Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
(Psa 2:6) Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
(Psa 2:7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
(Psa 2:8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
(Psa 2:9) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
(Psa 2:10) Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
(Psa 2:11) Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
(Psa 2:12) Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
To quote Carl Sagan, “An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.”
The onus of proof is on the claimant.
If you say there was an ark, prove it.
If you say there was a Jesus, prove it.
Hi Leeda, thanks for writing.
Of course there is no proof…thats what makes those people so silly. 🙂
So…If i write a book about Tupac today (he’s been dead for 16 years) that means he never existed?!
I never saw him with my own eyes…neither did you! I’m not a religious person and I’m still discovering what life is really all about so I’m on no one’s side…but from an intellectual standpoint, ‘the word of me’, your entire argument is full of holes, hearsay and opinions! In this argument it is YOUR responsibility to provide proof, not believers! Faith by definition is “the belief in things un-seen.” ‘Christians’ are going to believe simply because they choose to…they, by definition, don’t need “Proof!”
TJ, you should be ashamed of yourself for such faulty “reasoning.”
If I write a book 16 years after the last published volume of the Harry Potter series, does that mean he existed? By your logic, he did.
Faith indeed can mean belief without proof. However, when someone believes something, in the face of proof of the opposite, then that’s not faith, it’s stupidity.
Belief that there was Jesus is misinformed at best. The”eyewitness” accounts of Jesus, for example, are written in the third person, not the first person. The Book of Moses was written by Moses, yet he describes his life and his death and writes about the secret location of his burial, all coming AFTER his death. That’s a neat trick.
People believe all sorts of things. The man who kidnapped and raped Elizabeth Smart, in Utah, thought his god told him to do so. We don’t have any proof that claim is true or false. According to you, though, TJ, Brian Mitchell could have been justified in his daily rapes of Smart, because we don’t have visible proof otherwise.
We have multiple ways to know that Tupac lived. And lots of ways ro know that Harry Potter never existed.
By the same token, we have no way to know that Jesus ever lived. And lots of ways to know he didn’t.
Christians don’t think rationally about their religious beliefs. This happens because they are brainwashed from an early age, or they have shattering emotional events that make them unable to face reality. You don’t think rationally, either.
“I’m still discovering what life is really all about”
How old are you? 16?
Dave:
The ONLY way you would know Tupac existed IS by 3rd person accounts…like Jesus! Including videos…you’d need the videographer’s account to tell you what was going on that it’s not forged. EVER person from history is known through 3rd person accounts unless YOU’VE met him/her, Jesus included so that argument is invalid!
Dude, your talking in circles…practically every thing you say proves the other sides point THEN you use it against Christians!
Also, “The book of Moses was written by Moses”!?….Really, where in the Bible is the book of “Moses”………..let me know when you find it…I’ll wait! O_O You mean, you just spouted out a ‘fact’ that isn’t at all a fact!? Please bring arguments that you have PERSONALLY researched and don’t regurgitate what you’ve possibly heard from atheist intellectuals…what are you, 16?
In addition, to compare ALL believers and Christians to Brian Mitchell is the equivalent of comparing ALL American men to Ted Bundy or all overweight men to John Wayne Gacy. He was a sicko with a history of mental illness who had been seeing sh** long before he started preaching on street corners! And i never said believers were, as you put it “justified” in their actions solely because they believed they’re God ok’d it…I said that they believe in something “un-seen” so asking them to prove something to you is pointless!
You said “we have no way to know that Jesus ever lived. And lots of ways to know he didn’t.” Wow, really…?! LOTS!? Do tell! And please, save the things you were spoon fed from a book written by a “scholar” who told you what they found and you bought hook line and sinker, tell me what YOU KNOW! Operative word, “YOU!” There are countless books and stories and monuments worshiping, condemning, or simply trying to understand “Jesus Christ of Nazareth” but all these people are, quote “mis-informed at best” while you, the savant at the laptop have actually done the research…asked the tough questions…went through the pilgrimages…dug up ancient lands and know the truth, huh?
I bet you think Julius Caesar really existed, don’t you!? PROVE IT! I bet all the tactics you’d use are the same as the ones Christians would use to prove Jesus’s existed…which your saying isn’t good enough!
You added “Christians don’t think rationally about their religious beliefs. This happens because they are brainwashed from an early age, or they have shattering emotional events that make them unable to face reality.” Let’s see, Christians include: Johnny Cash, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa, Alice Cooper, Isaac Newton, The Wright Brothers, Rembrandt, Johann Sebastian Bach, C.S. Lewis, Chaucer, T.S. Eliot….Even Copernicus, Galileo and Einstein, amongst other “intellectuals” admitted their belief in God aka a Giant creator in the cosmos, un-seen, calling the shots! Pretty ridiculous, huh? Bunch of idiots, rights? Totally out of touch with “reality!” If ONLY all these folks and the rest of us could be as enlightened as you, Oh lap-top-ed one!
Please…spread the THRUTH, that YOU researched…that YOU inquired about…that YOU explored…that YOU have excavated, and not that guy/girl in that book you read!
Sincerely,
The Ethnic Studies, Religious Studies and Business MAJOR…..TJ!
ImseemTJ has gone slinking away…..
Well, TJ? Looks like you’ve slinked away….
Bad analogy there guy…hundreds and hundreds of people wrote about the guy (Tupac) when he was alive, there are video tapes and radio interviews. His life is established beyond doubt.
Gee, funny, but you sound exactly like a religious person trying to be Koooll and fool an atheist into thinking you are a rational person.
Your education is seriously lacking my friend. The actual proof comes when the man I was talking to gets lured into a deeper discussion.
However the things that I wrote about and skimmed quickly are very true…you have a whole internet and the best search engines on earth at your disposal.
I will reiterate some points for your edification and invite you to prove me wrong.
Adam and Eve never existed..this really puts the screws to Christian Dogma
The Noachian flood never happened
The Tower of Babel never happened
The Hebrew Exodus from Egypt never happened
Joshua never knocked down the walls of Jericho
Moses may not have existed
He (if he existed) never wrote the Pentateuch
The earth is not 6000 years old…or 10,000…or 50,000…or a million…it is 4.5 billion
The 4 Gospels are not written by the listed authors
Paul invented ‘Original Sin’
Paul invented ‘Christianity’
There is no ‘Original Sin’
NO one wrote of Jesus(if he existed) in his lifetime
Writing about Jesus came 35-40 years after his supposed death
The Gospels were not written by eyewitnesses and they totally contradict each other.
Just a few points for you to consider
Oh yeah, this past year it has been proven that humans evolved from previous ‘Homo’s’ such as Homo-erectus, Homo-habilis, Homo-heidelbergensis, etc. We do come from Great Apes.
It’s late where I am so I will give a full response later. However, at first glance I already see several discrepancies in your refutes of the Bible. “The earth is not 6000 years old…or 10,000…or 50,000…or a million…it is 4.5 billion” Where does the Bible state otherwise? The Bible NEVER says how old the earth is. If your counting using the “Generational” method (ditched in the 80s) then your skipping generations and not accounting for the years earth functioned before man! The Bible even states that God created “Large” animals on earth, in the sea and in the sky well before man (FYI a ‘day’ in the bible often refers to very long periods of time, often undetermined, i.e. “The day of the lord” accounts for seven days in Genesis 2…tons more examples on “the internet and the best search engines on earth”) Second, “Moses may” not have existed? What?! Did he or didn’t he!? Your big on proof, right? What’s this iffy stuff? You said “Your education is seriously lacking my friend”…funny, this is ALL I studied in school! Hmmmm….should have just read it from the “internet” like you, huh? Then I’d have all the answers. Tell me, what type of test were performed to see if the Noachian flood actually occurred…or did someone just tell you “It didn’t happen!”? Insane to me how quick ‘atheist’ are to use the word Dogma…but won’t believe ANYTHING outside of their comfort zone!
TTYL smarty pants!
-TJ
1) TJ – Dude. You’d be better served by comprehending the meaning of “first person accounts” and “third person accounts.”
A first person account would be a book written by your Aunt Zelda, about the time she spent with your Uncle Fred. In her book, Aunt Zelda writes, “I spent many happy years with my wonderful husband, Fred. I knew him as well as anyone, and boy, was he a character! Let me tell you some true stories about him and me!”
A third person account: “Mary visited the tomb by herself, and noticed Someone wasn’t in it. Then she went and told a bunch of other people who didn’t believe her. Keep reading because, boy, would they be surprised a few days later when they learned Mary spoke the truth!”
There are no first-person accounts in the Bible about Jesus. There are, though, lots of first person accounts of people like Uncle Fred and for that matter, Tupac Shakur.
Finish English class and then come back with some coherent thoughts.
2) “Really, where in the Bible is the book of “Moses”
OK – here are the locations:
Ezrah 6:18
2 Chronicles 35:12
Nehemiah 13:1
II Kings 14:6
Do you deny the words, “Book of Moses,” are in those passages? Do you claim those words don’t refer to anything in the Bible?
OT references to Original Sin: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps.%2051:5;%20Job%2014:4;%20Job%2015:14;%20Prov.%2020:9;%20Ecc.%207:20;%20Lam.%203:39&version=ESV
Doesn’t relate to Adam and Eve committing original sin at all.
“But he did not put to death the children of the murderers, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, where the Lord commanded, “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. But each one shall die for his own sin.” 2 Kings 14:6, English Standard Version (ESV)
3) “, to compare ALL believers and Christians to Brian Mitchell”
Once again, you fail in reading comprehension. I’m comparing Mitchell to all Christians, i.e., he and they put their faith in things not “visible,” when doing so is ridiculous.
Neither you, TJ, nor I can prove or disprove the claim that there are invisible unicorns, or that a visible, magic teapot hides behind the planet Jupiter. Do you believe in unicorns or that teapot? Probably not.
Yet you think belief in claims just as dumb – talking snakes, zombies, demons, turning water into wine, human pillars of salt, resurrection from the dead – is justified on the part of Christians because those claims, not “visible,” can’t be refuted.
4) “I bet all the tactics you’d use [to prove the existence of Julius Caesar] are the same as the ones Christians would use to prove Jesus’s existed”
You lose. There are no first person accounts about Jesus (such as “I saw him crucified”). There are only 3rd person accounts (“They saw him crucified”).
There are, though, first person accounts about Caesar. And there are even accounts by Caesar, himself (ironically written in the third person). All of this contemporary documentary evidence comes 60 years or so before the supposed birth of Jesus. Of Jesus’ existence, there is no contemporary evidence.
5) ” Let’s see, Christians include: Johnny Cash, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa”
That people believe in Jesus proves there’s a Jesus?
– Lincoln may have believed in a god, he never proclaimed specific belief in Jesus as God. People around him wrote that Lincoln was no Christian. Plenty of people who knew him or knew of others who knew Lincoln, claimed he was a Christian, AFTER Lincoln’s death. These are people who claimed Lincoln was GOING to join a church.
And of course, these same people claim that Lincoln decided to become a Christian after either A) the death of his son and/or B) visiting Gettysburg. I.e., Lincoln had a shattering experience.
Mother Teresa? We have her letters, full of her doubts. ” “If there be no God — there can be no soul — if there is no Soul then Jesus — You also are not true.”
And she wrote: “Please pray specially for me that I may not spoil His work and that Our Lord may show Himself — for there is such terrible darkness within me, as if everything was dead. It has been like this more or less from the time I started ‘the work.”
Einstein? Like Lincoln, he never wrote or uttered He wrote that religious belief was child-like (like belief in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus). Nowhere will you find that he believed in the existence of Jesus.
So you’re 18?
My own field of study in college was history, pre-history and anthropology. And unlike you, TJ (Mr. “Show me the Book of Moses”), I’m familiar with what’s actually in the Christian Bible.
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