Where Do Our Morals Come From

So I was perusing the Bible in search for a code of morality, a guide or moral compass as it were.  Something to tell me how to act in this great world we have.  I was a little surprised to find that I had a stronger sense of what’s right and what’s wrong than…God!!!

  • Slavery may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Demeaning women may be approved by the Bible…but it is morally wrong.
  • Killing of pregnant women, babies, and children may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Raping of women and children may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Telling lies to convert people to Christianity may be approved by churches…but it is morally wrong.
  • Killing people accused of witchcraft may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Committing genocide may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Religious intolerance may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Killing of children for childish behavior may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Keeping women from leadership may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Killing those who disagree with you may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Killing a man who takes a wife from another tribe may be approved by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Human sacrifice may be allowed by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Animal sacrifice may be enjoyable to God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Murdering people for taking a census ordered by Himself may be allowed by God…but it is morally wrong
  • Murder of those who do not follow Jesus is allowed by God…but it is morally wrong.
  • Murdering homosexuals is allowed by God…but it is morally wrong.

“God is a being of terrific character…cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.” Thomas Jefferson

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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

30 Responses to Where Do Our Morals Come From

  1. Wynand says:

    Interesting things you mention in your moral list. I just wonder where you got the info from. I can understand some of those points you mention for a lack of understanding and knowledge, but some of them are just ridiculous. Make sure the bible you are reading to try and prove there is no God, is not written by Anton LaVey.
    And by the way, why spend so much time on God when you don’t even believe in Him? I don’t believe in the easter bunny, but I don’t spend hours researching and then bashing him/her/it. What is up with that? You sound like one of the many bands whose existence is about singing about a God (Jesus, never ala or budha or any other) whom they hate or do not believe in.
    Anyways, maybe we’ll chat again, you sound interesting.

  2. thewordofme says:

    Hi Wynand, thanks for writing.

    You write:
    “Interesting things you mention in your moral list. I just wonder where you got the info from. I can understand some of those points you mention for a lack of understanding and knowledge, but some of them are just ridiculous. Make sure the bible you are reading to try and prove there is no God, is not written by Anton LaVey.”

    I got the information from the Bible…anyone of them will do, these things are in all of them. God tells the Hebrews to kill such and such tribe, men , women, and children. He tells them to kill and rape another tribe. He kills a bunch of children for teasing a bald man, by setting down rules for slavery he is implicitly endorsing it, etc, etc, etc.. All of the immoral things are from the Bible and things God sanctioned. Also remember the Bible says God never changes. As for the Anton LaVey crack, no…I am not associated with Satan. 🙂

    You write:
    “And by the way, why spend so much time on God when you don’t even believe in Him? I don’t believe in the easter bunny, but I don’t spend hours researching and then bashing him/her/it. What is up with that? You sound like one of the many bands whose existence is about singing about a God (Jesus, never ala or budha or any other) whom they hate or do not believe in.
    Anyways, maybe we’ll chat again, you sound interesting.”

    I am just turning the tables on Christians; they proselytize to me all the time. They tell me these phony Biblical stories and expect me to believe them, so I tell them that science is rapidly disproving most of the Bible…I just love to debate and argue these matters. In a friendly way of course.

    twom

  3. Wynand says:

    Hi twom.

    Thanks for replying on my reply…

    I must let you know that I am with you on some matters. I don’t agree with many things that you will hear in most of the churches today. The main one of this is the ‘christian hell’. I believe that God is alot more powerful and in control than many churches, would give Him glory for.

    Anyways, I have two questions for you:
    1) Where did God tell the Isrealites (I suppose) to rape anyone? (I know there are many things in the bible that I haven’t read yet, but this I never heard.)
    2) If there is no God, how did everything come into existence by itself? I read something about Biogenesis law that states that only life can produce/create life.

    I also love science and always question everything. And I believe the biggest problem with Christianity today is that most Christians don’t think.

    Time to change certain things.

  4. Wynand says:

    O yes, I was just checking on the writer of your bible you quote from.

  5. thewordofme says:

    Hi Wynand, thanks for your reply.

    Here are some of the scriptural back-ups to what I wrote. Late now will find the rest for you later.

    Here God says to kill anyone who serves another God

    “If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.” (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    Here they are ordered to kill everyone, but save the virgins for themselves.

    “So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.”

    Here they are told to hide and jump out and grab virgins as they walk by.

    “”Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

    David’s Punishment…Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God’s “Forgiveness”

    “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives (plural) while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'”
    Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan answered David: “The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.” (The child dies seven days later.) 2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB

    God tells us how to treat slaves.

    “”When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.” Exodus 21:20-21 NAB

    Ritual human sacrifice.

    “At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, “If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

    “So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. “My daughter!” he cried out. “My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back.” And she said, “Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin.” “You may go,” Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah’s daughter.” Judges 11:29-40

    The Law regarding rape.

    “If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29

    Pay a fine and then marry the women so she suffers even more.

    God never changes…

    twom

  6. Wynand says:

    Hi.

    I think we should carefully distinguish between commands/instructions from God and stupidity of man.

    Many times man and the church has done stupid things in the Name of the Lord which He never told them to do. Mostly to justify their beliefs. Does this honor God? No, in no way does it. In fact, God says that because of such things the world hates Him, and guess what, He is right!

    God does not change, but there is a season for everything. God’s purposes doesn’t change, but He has a time for everything. We don’t know and understand His plans and purposes, so they seem ridiculous to us. Especially if we can’t believe that there is a plan to everything. Yes, at the moment there is evil and suffering on earth, but it will end.
    Jesus didn’t teach to hate and kill. He taught to love and forgive. Isn’t this a better way to live by? Isn’t this morally good?

    Now there are many who do not believe and are enemies, but every unbeliever and enemy of God will (willingly) bend their knee and pledge allegiance to God.
    I believe in the restitution of all things, as is taught in the bible. And yes, even though most churches teach hell and eternal punishment, the bible does not.

    There is still much to be said, and we will get around to it. Just know this, I don’t judge you for your beliefs. I know that you believe what you do for a reason; maybe you were disappointed before and blame God for everything that went wrong in your life. Many people do this. But I also know, that no matter what you may think and feel now, there is always hope for everyone, no matter what the church may teach.

  7. thewordofme says:

    Hi Wynand, thank you for your response.

    You write:
    “I think we should carefully distinguish between commands/instructions from God and stupidity of man.
    And:
    “Many times man and the church has done stupid things in the Name of the Lord which He never told them to do. Mostly to justify their beliefs. Does this honor God? No, in no way does it. In fact, God says that because of such things the world hates Him, and guess what, He is right!”

    Am I right to say that the church has told us all along that the Bible is the actual word of God as he inspired man to write? In other words, all that is in the Bible is “God breathed.”

    So that would mean that the actions of men like Joshua and others are actually commanded of them by God. “Suffer not a witch to live” This is actually a command of God to kill witches. The early Catholic Church believed this and killed upwards of 3 million people during the dark ages…of course we now know that this is a lie from God, as there are no witches…never was. The Catholic Church of course is infallible.

    You write:
    “Jesus didn’t teach to hate and kill. He taught to love and forgive. Isn’t this a better way to live by? Isn’t this morally good?”

    Hold on there…Isn’t Jesus God? He never changes. Does that mean that Jesus was not God? As he was teaching different than God was in the old times, i.e. Moses and Joshua, et al, c. 1400-1500 BC.

    You write:
    “Now there are many who do not believe and are enemies, but every unbeliever and enemy of God will (willingly) bend their knee and pledge allegiance to God.
    I believe in the restitution of all things, as is taught in the bible. And yes, even though most churches teach hell and eternal punishment, the bible does not.”

    What do you mean by “the restitution of all things”?

    You write:
    “There is still much to be said, and we will get around to it. Just know this, I don’t judge you for your beliefs. I know that you believe what you do for a reason; maybe you were disappointed before and blame God for everything that went wrong in your life. Many people do this. But I also know, that no matter what you may think and feel now, there is always hope for everyone, no matter what the church may teach.”

    I de-converted when I was 13. My reasoning at the time was …”These stories make no logical sense…this stuff is silly.” Never looked back, never regretted the change.

    Evil and suffering have always been here, it is the way of humans. Original sin is not the cause, living as humans is the cause. However there are large numbers of people who are good and try to be friends to all, and do no wrong against our fellow humans…they are mostly agnostics and atheists. Religion is still trying to kill those of other religions or no religion.

    twom

  8. Wynand says:

    Hi.

    I do believe that the Word of God is inspired by the Spirit of God, but this does not mean that every stupid thing that a man does is commanded by God.
    I have a four year old daughter. She does not always do what I tell her to and sometimes she does exactly what I tell her not to.

    There are always consequences to our actions and we all have to take responsibility for everything we do. I don’t try to make out that I understand everything God does and why, but I do know that I can not argue with God and win. I’m sure that God is not offended when I question things or even Him, but I accept that I am mortal man and God is far greater than I can ever understand. But that’s me.

    What I mean by the restitution of all things, is that I believe that God has the power and is willing to use it in order to save every person that ever walked the face of the planet. If it does not happen now, it will happen after death. Death is not a barrier for God.

    You wrote: “I de-converted when I was 13. My reasoning at the time was …”These stories make no logical sense…this stuff is silly.” Never looked back, never regretted the change. ”

    How much reasoning does a 13 year old have? How many things make logical sense to a 13 year old? Many things make no sense to grown-ups, never mind 13 year old children.

    I know that I will not make you change your mind, but I know God can. And if He chooses not to do so in this life, then your turn will come on judgment day.
    Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

    Blessings to you.

  9. thewordofme says:

    Hi Wynand, thanks for your reply.

    You write:
    “I do believe that the Word of God is inspired by the Spirit of God, but this does not mean that every stupid thing that a man does is commanded by God.”

    The things I wrote about are supposedly the word of God or Jesus or a trusted prophet or scribe and of course it was guided by God, so I don’t think your criticism about the use of morality in the Bible applies. The examples are things that God or someone from the Bible did. God shows Himself to be really evil in the Bible and I believe that the examples and many others in the Bible do not show a morality that I would want to follow.

    The Golden Rule seems to work much better as it depends on human’s view of what is right and wrong…and the Golden Rule did not originate in the Bible.

    You write:
    “What I mean by the restitution of all things, is that I believe that God has the power and is willing to use it in order to save every person that ever walked the face of the planet. If it does not happen now, it will happen after death. Death is not a barrier for God.”

    Going to be really crowded, there are some estimates that as many as 100 billion people have lived on earth since we evolved from the lower hominids about 200,000 years ago. 🙂

    You write:
    “You wrote: “I de-converted when I was 13. My reasoning at the time was …”These stories make no logical sense…this stuff is silly.” Never looked back, never regretted the change. ”
    And:
    How much reasoning does a 13 year old have? How many things make logical sense to a 13 year old? Many things make no sense to grown-ups, never mind 13 year old children.”

    Funny thing about this story; I can actually remember my reasoning and what I wrote about it even now, and the reasoning is still valid. I had the Bible and some adult friends who would talk to me as if I were also an adult. I remember from about the age of seven in Sunday school questioning the teacher about Noah’s ark and the other stories. I learned to read at age four and have been a voracious reader ever since.

    You write:
    “I know that I will not make you change your mind, but I know God can. And if He chooses not to do so in this life, then your turn will come on judgment day.”

    I really don’t expect to change many minds like yours either. I’m just putting the real science and evidence “out there” and there will be some who will start thinking for themselves and break away from the limited world-view of all religions…they are after all, just an invention of early man.

    twom

    • Wynand says:

      Hi.

      Is evolution a real science? As far as I know, evolution is just a hypothesis. Let evolution proof how everything existed by itself with facts.

  10. Dave Wyman says:

    Wow, Wynand, I won’t be the one to say that, by your own words, you are bound for Hell. I’ll let someone else say it.

    That you deny the words plainly written in the Bible demonstrate your peril.

    For example, the Bible reads:

    “Thus says the Lord: ‘I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives (plural) while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.”

    Yet having read these words, you deny your God said them. Denying what the Bible says can place you in huge danger.

    • Wynand says:

      Hi Dave.

      I know that God created evil (Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.)
      I know that God uses evil for His purposes which we clearly do not understand. God is responsible for everything and He took responsibility by sending Jesus to die for us.

      Not everyone can understand the things of God and I could sit for years trying to convince you, but I’m not even going to try it. Not everyone has faith to believe. Some people are kept in blindness by God to show His power and mercy at the end. Those who are forgiven much, loves much.

      I would probably be scared by your words, “Wow, Wynand, I won’t be the one to say that, by your own words, you are bound for Hell. I’ll let someone else say it. ” if I believed in hell, but you know what, I don’t. And it doesn’t really look like you do either, so your whole comment is senseless. Or maybe you just have not decided yet.

  11. Dave Wyman says:

    Wynand wrote:

    “If there is no God, how did everything come into existence by itself?”

    If there is a God, Wynand, how did He come into existence?

    • Wynand says:

      Hi Dave.

      Why don’t you answer first? And let’s look at science and facts and forget about everything else. Since evolution is a science according to some, proof it with facts.

      How did everything come into existence by itself?
      If you can, or anyone else can, answer my question with an answer.

      • Dave Wyman says:

        Wynand wrote:

        “Why don’t you answer first.”

        I did, Wynand, but you’re too blinded by your belief system to have figured it out.

        When you asked above how everything could come from nothing, I answered your question by pointing out that its just as valid to ask where God came from.

        Which is another way of saying, “We don’t know where “everything” came from, just as you don’t know where God came from.

        It looks like, by the way, that you confuse the origin of life with the creation of “everything.” I’ll discuss that below.

        However, now that I’ve answered – we don’t know where space and time and matter come from, it’s time for you to answer my question:

        If everything must come fromsomewhere, where does your god come from?

  12. thewordofme says:

    Hi Wynand,

    You write:
    “Is evolution a real science? As far as I know, evolution is just a hypothesis. Let evolution proof how everything existed by itself with facts.”

    How about Jerry A. Coyne, PhD who is a Professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago and a member of both the Committee on Genetics and the Committee on Evolutionary Biology. He is author of the book “Why Evolution is True”

    How about Richard Dawkins, FRS, FRSL who is a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and popular science author. He was formerly Professor for Public Understanding of Science at Oxford and was a fellow of New College, Oxford. He is the author of several bestselling books on the questions of God and creation.

    Evolution is as much a hypothesis as Germ theory, Atomic theory, theory of relativity, and about a hundred other theories, all of which are proven, but are still called theories.

    Do you know what a “theory” is in its scientific application?

    I don’t see the “theory of God” or the “theory of creation” producing ANY real proofs of anything. 🙂

    twom

    • Wynand says:

      Hi twom.

      One thing we can agree on is that neither God nor evolution can be proven with scientific facts. We are most likely to believe in what we find most likely. For me it is easier to believe in a Creator of all things, while this is not feasible for you.

      So, if there is no Creator, we are left with chance. Everything is just exactly right for us to live per chance.

      I want to add something here I found on the net which makes it difficult for me to believe in evolution. Maybe it makes sense to you and I would like to know why, if you have the time to explain, but I am sure that you will find this interesting none the less.

      1. The complexity of living systems could never evolve by chance—they had to be designed and created. A system that is irreducibly complex has precise components working together to perform the basic function of the system. (A mousetrap is a simple example.) If any part of that system were missing, the system would cease to function. Gradual additions could not account for the origin of such a system. It would have to come together fully formed and integrated. Many living systems exhibit this (vision, blood-clotting, etc.). When you look at a watch, you assume there was a watchmaker. A watch is too complex to “happen” by chance. Yet such living systems are almost infinitely more complex than a watch. They could not be random—they simply had to be designed and created.

      2. The high information content of DNA could only have come from intelligence. Information science teaches that in all known cases, complex information requires an intelligent message sender. This is at the core of the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI). DNA is by far the most compact information storage/retrieval system known. A pinhead of DNA has a billion times more information capacity than a 4-gigabit hard drive. Ironically, evolutionists scan the heavens using massive radio telescopes hoping for relatively simple signal patterns that might have originated in outer space, all the while ignoring the incredibly complex evidence of superior intelligence built into every human’s DNA. While we’re waiting to hear signs of intelligence behind interstellar communication, we’re ignoring those built into us.

      3. No mutation that increases genetic information has ever been discovered. Mutations which increase genetic information would be the raw material necessary for evolution. To get from “amoeba” to “man” would require a massive net increase in information. There are many examples of supposed evolution given by proponents. Variation within a species (finch beak, for example), bacteria which acquire antibiotic resistance, people born with an extra chromosome, etc. However, none of the examples demonstrate the development of new information. Instead, they demonstrate either preprogrammed variation, multiple copies of existing information, or even loss of information (natural selection and adaptation involve loss of information). The total lack of any such evidence refutes evolutionary theory.

      4. Evolution flies directly in the face of entropy, the second law of thermodynamics. This law of physics states that all systems, whether open or closed, have a tendency to disorder (or “the least energetic state”). There are some special cases where local order can increase, but this is at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere. Raw energy cannot generate the complex systems in living things, or the information required to build them. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Yet, evolution is a building-up process, suggesting that things tend to become more complex and advanced over time. This is directly opposed to the law of entropy.

      5. There is a total lack of undisputed examples (fossilized or living) of the millions of transitional forms (“missing links”) required for evolution to be true. Evolution does not require a single missing link, but innumerable ones. We should be surrounded by a zoo of transitional forms that cannot be categorized as one particular life form. But we don’t see this—there are different kinds of dogs, but all are clearly dogs. The fossils show different sizes of horses, but all are clearly horses. None is on the verge of being some other life form. The fossil record shows complex fossilized life suddenly appearing, and there are major gaps between the fossilized “kinds.” Darwin acknowledged that if his theory were true, it would require millions of transitional forms. He believed they would be found in fossil records. They haven’t been.

      6. Pictures of ape-to-human “missing links” are extremely subjective and based on evolutionists’ already-formed assumptions. Often they are simply contrived. The series of pictures or models that show progressive development from a little monkey to modern man are an insult to scientific research. These are often based on fragmentary remains that can be “reconstructed” a hundred different ways. The fact is, many supposed “ape-men” are very clearly apes. Evolutionists now admit that other so-called “ape-men” would be able to have children by modern humans, which makes them the same species as humans. The main species said to bridge this gap, Homo habilis, is thought by many to be a mixture of ape and human fossils. In other words, the “missing link” (in reality there would have to be millions of them) is still missing. The body hair and the blank expressions of sub-humans in these models doesn’t come from the bones, but the assumptions of the artist. Virtually nothing can be determined about hair and the look in someone’s eyes based on a few old bones.

      7. The dating methods that evolutionists rely upon to assign millions and billions of years to rocks are very inconsistent and based on unproven (and questionable) assumptions. Dating methods that use radioactive decay to determine age assume that radioactive decay rates have always been constant. Yet, research has shown that decay rates can change according to the chemical environment of the material being tested. In fact, decay rates have been increased in the laboratory by a factor of a billion. All such dating methods also assume a closed system—that no isotopes were gained or lost by the rock since it formed. It’s common knowledge that hydrothermal waters, at temperatures of only a few hundred degrees Centigrade, can create an open system where chemicals move easily from one rock system to another. In fact, this process is one of the excuses used by evolutionists to reject dates that don’t fit their expectations. What’s not commonly known is that the majority of dates are not even consistent for the same rock. Furthermore, 20th century lava flows often register dates in the millions to billions of years. There are many different ways of dating the earth, and many of them point to an earth much too young for evolution to have had a chance. All age-dating methods rely on unprovable assumptions.

      8. Uses continue to be found for supposedly “leftover” body structures. Evolutionists point to useless and vestigial (leftover) body structures as evidence of evolution. However, it’s impossible to prove that an organ is useless, because there’s always the possibility that a use may be discovered in the future. That’s been the case for over 100 supposedly useless organs which are now known to be essential. Scientists continue to discover uses for such organs. It’s worth noting that even if an organ were no longer needed (e.g., eyes of blind creatures in caves), it would prove devolution not evolution. The evolutionary hypothesis needs to find examples of developing organs—those that are increasing in complexity.

      9. Evolution is said to have begun by spontaneous generation—a concept ridiculed by biology. When I was a sophomore in high school, and a brand new Christian, my biology class spent the first semester discussing how ignorant people used to believe that garbage gave rise to rats, and raw meat produced maggots. This now disproven concept was called “spontaneous generation.” Louis Pasteur proved that life only comes from life—this is the law of biogenesis. The next semester we studied evolution, where we learned that the first living cell came from a freak combination of nonliving material (where that nonliving material came from we were not told). “Chemical Evolution” is just another way of saying “spontaneous generation”—life comes from nonlife. Evolution is therefore built on a fallacy science long ago proved to be impossible.

      Evolutionists admit that the chances of evolutionary progress are extremely low. Yet, they believe that given enough time, the apparently impossible becomes possible. If I flip a coin, I have a 50/50 chance of getting heads. To get five “heads” in a row is unlikely but possible. If I flipped the coin long enough, I would eventually get five in a row. If I flipped it for years nonstop, I might get 50 or even 100 in a row. But this is only because getting heads is an inherent possibility. What are the chances of me flipping a coin, and then seeing it sprout arms and legs, and go sit in a corner and read a magazine? No chance. Given billions of years, the chances would never increase. Great periods of time make the possible likely but never make the impossible possible. No matter how long it’s given, non-life will not become alive.

      10. The scientific method can only test existing data—it cannot draw conclusions about origins. Micro-evolution, changes within a species on a small scale, is observable. But evidence for macro-evolution, changes transcending species, is conspicuous by its absence. To prove the possibility of anything, science must be able to reproduce exact original conditions. Even when it proves something is possible, it doesn’t mean it therefore happened. Since no man was there to record or even witness the beginning, conclusions must be made only on the basis of interpreting presently available information. If I put on rose-colored glasses, I will always see red. I accept the Bible’s teaching on creation, and see the evidence as being consistently supportive of that belief. When dealing with origins, everyone who believes anything does so by faith, whether faith in God, the Bible, himself, modern science, or the dependability of his own subjective interpretations of existing data. I would rather put my faith in God’s revealed Word.

  13. Dave Wyman says:

    Wynand wrote:

    “If there is no God, how did everything come into existence by itself? I read something about Biogenesis law that states that only life can produce/create life.”

    Wynand, you have confused the origin of the universe – the origin of “stuff,” time, space, matter – with the origin of life.

    I’ve encountered this many times. People like you think the Theory of Evolution is a theory of creation; it’s not.

    The Theory of Evolution deals with life AFTER it was created. It does not deal with HOW life was created.

    If you could understand the idea the creation of life and the evolution of life are different, we would have a better chance communicating with each other.

    • Wynand says:

      Hi Dave.

      I do know that evolution (life/species evolving) does not (try to) proof the origin of the universe, and that they are seperate things.

      But if you believe in evolution (life evolving from non-life) and not a God who created every life form, it takes you back to the creation of time, space and matter, doesn’t it? If you think any further, that is. If there is no architect, what do you have then?

      And sure, we can not proof the origin of God, but that is why, according to those who have faith, He is God. If God was created, He wouldn’t be God. I guess for many it is impossible to believe in God, just like it is impossible for many to believe that everything just happened per chance.

      I guess we’re going to believe in what makes more sense to us. God makes more sense to me; evolution makes more sense to you. The question that I would like to come to is WHY. I know why I believe in God, but I do not know why it is easier for you to believe in chance.

      Maybe we can come to this now.

  14. Dave Wyman says:

    Wynand wrote:

    “I know that God uses evil for His purposes which we clearly do not understand. ”

    YOU don’t understand your god, Wynand.

    – First, you ask where your god has done or commanded something immoral.

    Twom points out all sorts of passages from the Bible where your god does something that YOU wouldn’t do.

    Then you write about stupid things MEN and churches do. But you COMPLETELY ignore what God has done.

    Then, when I point out your god commands a man to sleep with the wives of another man, you reply:

    “I know that God uses evil for His purposes which we clearly do not understand.”

    If YOU can’t understand what your own god means, Wynand, if you think, as you claim, that we can’t understand him, then why are you trying to explain it?

    You asked for examples of your god’s immoral ways. When you were shown those immoral actions, you suddenly claim you can’t “understand” your god.

    I think I understand you well enough, Wynand.

    You’ll say anything to keep your belief in your god, even when you have to contradict yourself, even when you have to lie to yourself, even when the words in the bible are plain.

    Your god does things like make one man sleep with the wives of another man, and wants and does a host of other terrible things you would never do.

    What would possess you to ask for examples of God’s immoral behavior, if you refuse to admit, even when shown examples, that God can be immoral?

    This is a rhetorical question: why should I or anyone else trust anything you say now? (It’s rhetorical because I already know the answer.)

    • Wynand says:

      Hi Dave.

      The first reason that I am on this site is because I want to question things and try (to a degree) to understand things better.

      I never read in the bible where God gave anyone a command to rape a woman. I agreed with most of the things that twom mentioned about what God commanded, but not everything, and that is why I asked. He read something that I never read, just like I read things that you never read which gives me a different understanding of what you have.

      And then I mentioned that I know that there are many things God does that I (we) don’t understand. But it doesn’t change my view that there is a God; that God can do what He wants to, even if it causes us to think He is a monster (because we don’t understand); that God has a plan for everything; and that in the fullness of time, He will bring everything together in Christ.

      I don’t think you understand me at all. I am open to anyone who has an opinion about something, even if it is different than mine, even if it doesn’t make sense to me. Can you say the same? Are you open to other opinions? I once read that we should avoid any religious sect (any group for this matter) that is not willing to answer questions or even hear them out. I am questioning your beliefs because I want to find out why you believe what you do, not because I want to justify my own beliefs.

      Maybe you can understand me better now.

      Another thing I don’t understand about your beliefs is why you use the bible to proof that God is bad/immoral, if you don’t believe that it is from God? Then it is just another book of lies, meaning that everything in it is lies and can not be used to proof anything… What am I missing here?

  15. Dave Wyman says:

    “it causes us to think He is a monster”

    That’s right Wynand, you said it – your god is often a monster.

    It’s easy, then, for me to understand why you say you can’t understand why your god acts like a monster. It’s because you claim two things at once, that your god is loving, and that your god hates enough to kill humans and to ask them to do things like sleep with the wives of other men.

    The more rational of us would say that to believe in a god who is supposed to be all about love but often does the opposite means either the stories about such a god are nonsense, or that such a god doesn’t exist.

    Why would you put your faith in a god who kills and commands rape? Why would you put your faith in a god you admit you don’t understand?

    It’s probably because you’re brainwashed, Wynand (and of course that means you can’t see that you’re brainwashed).

    YOU are the one who asked for examples of your god’s immorality. When shown those examples, you first fob it off on the “stupidity” of humans.

    Now you claim you just cant “understand” your own god, even as you realize he acts in monstrous ways – ways you would NEVER act yourself.

    I YOU can’t understand your god, if YOU deny the truth you say you see – that your god is a monster at times – then I don’t know what you expect us to learn from you. Other than, perhaps, that you are conflicted in ways that even you don’t understand.

  16. Dave Wyman says:

    Wynand wrote:

    “it is just another book of lies, meaning that everything in it is lies and can not be used to proof anything… What am I missing here?”

    Now you’re starting to get it, Wynand. The bible can’t be used to prove anything and it’s full of nice stories than, when examined with a critical mind, are shown to be nothing more than stories, and silly ones, at that.

    Your loving god orders up the rape of virgins. Jesus wants us to love but also tells us he comes with a sword.

    God gives man free will, but then, as in the case of Pharaoh, “hardens” his heart and makes him say just what he doesn’t want to say.

    Then your god kills the first-born children and animals of the Egyptians, even though Pharaoh wanted to let the Jews.

    And of course you think you can telepathically communicate with a Jewish zombie who died 2,000 years ago.

    So yes, your bible is full of nonsense. You have learned that it’s all true nonsense, though, so you still believe, even though you’ve admitted your god acts like a monster.

  17. Dave Wyman says:

    “One thing we can agree on is that neither God nor evolution can be proven with scientific facts.”

    Only in your mind, Wynand. Evolution is certainly a proven concept.

    Why do you think we need new flu vaccines every year or so? That’s right, the flu virus evolves into a new model.

    With larger creatures, we have clear fossil evidence.

    Nothing has yet shown the Theory of Evolution to be false. All evidence shows it to be true, NO evidence shows it is false. More and more and more evidence shows it’s true.

  18. Dave Wyman says:

    “if there is no Creator, we are left with chance. Everything is just exactly right for us to live per chance.”

    Have you ever purchased a lottery ticket, Wynand? If you win, it’s through chance. Everything is just exactly right for you to win by chance.

    Millions of other tickets have been sold, but you just happened to pick the winning ticket.

    How is that possible? How does anyone EVER win the lottery if everything has to be, as you put it, “exactly right?”

    Yet every time the lottery is played, a winning number comes up.

    Earth is kind of like a giant lottery ticket, Wynand. Earth has the winning ticket for the formation of life (of course, we don’t yet know if other planets in the or other solar systems have life, too).

    But conditions don’t have to be EXACTLY right, as you claim. For example, the earth isn’t the same temperature everywhere; life can life in polar regions and at the bottom of the sea, next to hot vents.

    And the earth wobbles in it’s course around the sun. So it’s movements aren’t exact, either.

    So your claim that things have to be exactly right for life is actually incorrect.

  19. Dave Wyman says:

    ” The complexity of living systems could never evolve by chance—they had to be designed and created. A system that is irreducibly complex has precise components working together to perform the basic function of the system. (A mousetrap is a simple example.) ”

    Come on, Wynand – you are supposed to put your thoughts in your own words. You are plagiarizing here.

    And, a mousetrap is a terrible example. If you read some more on the Web, you’d know this. But you are happy as a clam to stop reading when what you’ve found suits your beliefs.

    “If any part of that system were missing, the system would cease to function.”

    Wrong. We can remove the platform of the mouse trap and stick the spring directly into the ground, or a floor, and it’s still a mousetrap.

    We can do away with the spring and the hammer and use poisoned bait. It’s still a mousetrap.

    In fact, Wynand, we need hardly any parts of a mousetrap to make it work as a mousetrap.

    To see this, including drawings, go here: http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/DI/Mousetrap.html

    Actually, I don’t expect you to understand what you’re going to read. I’d like you to acknowledge, though, that you did at least look at the web page.

  20. Dave Wyman says:

    “When you look at a watch, you assume there was a watchmaker. A watch is too complex to “happen” by chance.”

    Sorry, you’re not thinking clearly about this either, Wynand. No “one” person made a watch. The watch was the result of many, many human minds working with concepts of time, inventing tools, making gears, learning how to make form clear glass, learning how to make permanent markings, etc.

    In other words, no one person ever said, “Hey, I’ll make a thing that sits on a wrist and tells time!” Lots and lots of people had to work on the concept of a watch before one was ever created.

    Without realizing it, Wynand, you’ve just argued for the existence of MANY gods, not the one god you put your faith in.

    You have directly contradicted yourself. “There must be one god that designed us, because someone must have designed a watch!”

    But as you’ve just seen, no one person made a watch – no one person thought up a watch, no one person built a watch. Lots of people were needed to create a watch.

    So you have already, without realizing it, turned your back on your one god, and argued that there must be many gods.

    You are known, Wynand, not as a theist, but as a pantheist – one who believes in many gods.

    Or are you now going to change your story and claim a watchmaker is NOT the same as one god?

    You see, Wynand, you haven’t thought things through for YOURSELF. You rely on the words of others to back up what you believe.

    It’s nice that you are here asking questions. It’s clear, though, that you already have the answers you want, and they aren’t coming from twom or me or anyone else who has ideas about reality that differ from your own.

    You are going to go on believing what others say rather than understanding the world around through your own efforts.

  21. Dave Wyman says:

    “you believe in evolution (life evolving from non-life) ”

    You did it again, Wynand. I’m sorry, but the Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the creation of life from non-life.

    You still don’t get it, even though you said you did.

    Please repeat what I’ve written, so I know you are actually reading my words: the Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with life coming from non-life.

    Evolution, you see (well, you don’t), is all about the way living things change. There’s nothing about evolution that discusses how life got started.

    If you are going to make up your own ideas of what things (like words) mean, then it’s difficult to have a conversation with you.

  22. Dave Wyman says:

    Wynand wrote:

    “Evolutionists admit that the chances of evolutionary progress are extremely low. ”

    This is complete nonsense. Once again, Wynand, you are quoting someone else’s words who has mistaken the idea of evolution for the origin of life.

  23. Dave Wyman says:

    “There is a total lack of undisputed examples (fossilized or living) of the millions of transitional forms (“missing links”) required for evolution to be true. Evolution does not require a single missing link, but innumerable ones.”

    Again, total nonsense. We have only been looking for fossils for a relatively brief time, less than a couple hundred years.

    Yet we keep finding more and more fossils, more and more intermediate steps between changes.

    We haven’t found any evidence that points the other way – there are NO fossils that show change hasn’t occurred.

    Yes, there is a requirement of several “missing” links. And that’s just what’s happening: we are finding ever more examples of “missing” links that continue to show evolution has – and is – happening.

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