Free Will Doesn’t Cut It

“When people are trying to make a decision, not just about what’s real but about how to act on it, denying us relevant information does not make us more free. It makes us less free. In every area of life other than religion, this is clearly understood.  It’s the foundation of the principle of informed consent: when relevant information is denied us, our consent is impaired at best, and negated at worst. Having the best possible information about reality is essential to making good decisions about how to act in that reality.”  Greta Christina

So the Free-Will argument doesn’t cut it. The whole idea that if we have real factual evidence of God we wouldn’t be able to choose any other path…is a bogus argument promulgated by Christian apologists. Think back to your own Christian religious manual. If the book of Genesis and Exodus was true, the people following Moses through the desert for forty years supposedly had proof positive of the reality of Yahweh, but they went off and made golden statues, and worshipped them, and forgot all about what they were told and supposedly saw firsthand.  The very people (and there was reputedly a million or more of them) who were actually closest to this will-o’-wisp and whose leader talked to Him face to face, just blew Him off after a few days.

So we have a million people who “traveled with God”, supposedly saw His miracles, and then turned their back on him in a New York minute…how interesting/perplexing is that?

This is just one of the dumbfounding pieces of foolishness out of hundreds, maybe thousands, of bits that don’t add up to a rational religion.  Adding them all together proves it is a false religion…a man-made con.
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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

7 Responses to Free Will Doesn’t Cut It

  1. Plankton says:

    Awesome write up. Another good example is Adam and Eve. They walked with God in the garden, saw him face to face and yet still had the free will to sin. The free will argument is a bogus argument indeed.

  2. While I agree that receiving all information to make an informed decision is important.

    I don’t know where you get if one finds actual evidence of God that one is compelled to believe. That wouldn’t be free will either. Judas received the special place of honor at the table with God and refused to befriend Him, so its still a free choice and clearly individuals still chose to reject and individuals chose to accept.

    The best current example are the Christopher & Peter Hitchens brother who were both atheists, but the latter is not a Christian.

  3. thewordofme says:

    Hello Qboa, nice to hear from you again. I hope you are well.

    I thought Peter was a Christian. I saw him debate Christopher once and Peter was definitely on the pro side.

    Free will or not…If one sees definitive proof for anything one is compelled to believe. The Jews traveling with Moses supposedly saw definitive proof of a god. Think Red/Reed sea parting, water from a rock, “Manna” from heaven, all those partridges or quail…or whatever kind of bird it was, column of smoke at day, column of fire at night.

    If you personally saw a UFO land in your front yard, would you not believe in UFO’s? It has nothing to do with free will, it has to do with actual physical proofs.

    When people believed in magic in those days they could accept things we never will because we know magic is nonsense.

    You write:
    “…its still a free choice and clearly individuals still chose to reject and individuals chose to accept.”

    Nowadays we mostly don’t believe in magic so people are choosing God or nothing based on their gullibility level, since there is absolutely no evidence of any kind for God.

    Being a Christian yourself; how would you rate the gullibility of those who believe in the ways of Allah, or all of the Hindu gods? How do you rate the miracles the Bible talks about; like virgin birth, resurrection, and the prophecies of Daniel and others?

    twom

  4. “since there is absolutely no evidence of any kind for God”

    Ah,speaking of gullible;>) Stuck without free will!

    The resurrection is essential and I believe that to be factual. On the other points while I support them as miracles I’m not set in stone on requiring them as always being literally true. There is however always a moral objective or lesson if you will behind them. In that sense I’m not like some protestant communions.

    St. John of Damascuss wrote back in the 7th century -Heresies in Epitome: How They Began and Whence They Drew Their Origin. It pretty much explains Islam as it was being form, what theological concepts it drew on from Christianity and the Jews, so no I don’t believe in what they have to offer.

    If one is lead to believe in God then one IMO logically comes to the conclusion that there is only one, not multiple gods. Otherwise God is not god. Hence Hindu’s polytheistic beliefs don’t offer much either for me.

    The fact of the matter is that 90%(my guess) of us around the world grow up and accept what was passed down to us from our parents. Only 10% of us challenge those assumptions and either strongly accept or strongly reject those assumptions. If you were born in India you would be Hindu – that’s a fact. If you were born in Iran you would be a Muslim.

    Given that the USA is now 20% secular atheist I imagine that we may start to see some primary education private schools or hospitals coming from you along with missionaries to haiti to help educate, feed and the provide shelter for the poor. Ok perhaps not.

  5. thewordofme says:

    Hello Qboa, thanks for your reply.

    I’m sorry for the delay, we have an extended family member in the hospital with a blood clot in the brain and she’s not doing well. The last post I put up was already written and all I had to do was post it.

    Knowing what you do about the Biblical scripture that says we are in this melodrama that God supposedly setup for us, and we have no way of “opting out”…do you think we have free-will? We obviously can choose which pants to wear in the morning, but in the overall grand scheme of things we have no choices at all.

    The resurrection of Jesus was preceded by many other gods that mankind thought up in those days. Just like the virgin birth, if you were pushing a new god, you had to follow the formula that was already in place. Everyone in those times seemed to believe in magic and gods had to affirm that they were in some way magical to be believed. Virgin birth seemed to be the most popular godly attribute and the Catholics certainly picked up on that by even making Mary’s conception virginal, but resurrection was right up there too.

    You write:
    “Ah, speaking of gullible;>)”

    I’m still searching and I have explored so many nooks and crannies and found nothing, I’m thinking there really is nothing to be found.

    Islam is obviously a fraud…much easier to figure out than Christianity. Muslims probably stick to it because it gives them so much power over females and of course all the Imams and Mullah’s want to keep all that power over the Peon’s.

    You write:
    “If one is lead to believe in God then one IMO logically comes to the conclusion that there is only one, not multiple gods. Otherwise God is not god. Hence Hindu’s polytheistic beliefs don’t offer much either for me.”

    Isn’t there still one line in Psalms that gives credence to there being “gods?” Can’t remember it offhand.

    twom

    Ooops! I lost part of my reply. Following was added an hour or so later.

    You write:
    “The fact of the matter is that 90%(my guess) of us around the world grow up and accept what was passed down to us from our parents. Only 10% of us challenge those assumptions and either strongly accept or strongly reject those assumptions. If you were born in India you would be Hindu – that’s a fact. If you were born in Iran you would be a Muslim. “

    I do believe that to be factual. Your religion, if you have one, is almost totally a function of where you are born nowadays. The Protestants though seem to be having tremendous success in proselytizing the Chinese. In the near future we may see China as a breeder of Christians, just like America. What scares me is that there is always a certain (high) percentage of Protestant Christians who are Biblical literalists, fundamentalist, creationists…and they are just plain crazy.

    You write:
    “ Given that the USA is now 20% secular atheist I imagine that we may start to see some primary education private schools or hospitals coming from you along with missionaries to haiti to help educate, feed and the provide shelter for the poor. Ok perhaps not.”

    Americans seem to be a pretty “giving” people and I don’t think the atheists here are any less giving than the theists…they’re just less organized and quieter about it.

  6. Twom:do you think we have free-will
    QB: Yes we have moral choices. We don’t get to select btwn a Yugo and a Bentley but that’s a material issue not a moral one.

    Twom: What scares me is that there is always a certain (high) percentage of Protestant Christians who are Biblical literalists, fundamentalist, creationists…and they are just plain crazy.
    QB: Well we all can be that from time to time. Most of those who hold those opinions don’t turn them into political desires.

    Twom: Americans seem to be a pretty “giving” people and I don’t think the atheists here are any less giving than the theists…they’re just less organized and quieter about it.
    QB: well I don’t know the breakdown, but atheists need to put their money, time and effort behind what they believe. If I’m living a fantasy you should feel an obligation to change my opinion and the rest of the Christian & Muslim world. But you guys don’t have any sort of organization. You would rather complain about all the ignorant believers and pat yourself s on the back for being the enlightened ones.

    I want to see atheist hospitals and universities(oh I forgot we already provide funding for atheists on that front :>)

  7. thewordofme says:

    Hi Qboa, thanks for reply.

    You write:
    “QB: Yes we have moral choices. We don’t get to select btwn a Yugo and a Bentley but that’s a material issue not a moral one.”

    I believe we do make moral choices on practically a daily basis, but I’ll bet you if God were real He would have a chart with the exact percentage of those saved and those doomed in the final accounting of things. And He would have a chart of those who failed His tests and which ones they failed. Seems I’ve been told that this whole plan of sin and redemption has been in effect since God made Himself known to us humans 6,000 years ago. And since He is all knowing and everywhere at once He knows which ones will fail and which ones will pass. They quit making the Yugo. 🙂

    Regarding Biblical fundamentalists, etc.:
    “QB: Well we all can be that from time to time. Most of those who hold those opinions don’t turn them into political desires.”

    Man, some evangelical fundamentalists, right wingers have sure turned Biblical injunctions/admonitions into political desire, witness George Bush, Sarah Palin, Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney, etc.
    .
    You write regarding giving and volunteering:
    “QB: well I don’t know the breakdown, but atheists need to put their money, time and effort behind what they believe…”

    I don’t know the breakdown either, but I’ll guess that atheists give and volunteer about as much as anybody. Regarding hospitals and universities we would have to be much more organized to fund such things solely by us. Many universities and colleges are pretty secular, but not run and funded by atheists. I have a real problem with Catholic hospitals though. It’s in regard to them firing and excommunicating a female administrator for authorizing a life or death abortion and generally putting more value on the child rather than the mother in case of a birth problem.

    You write:
    “If I’m living a fantasy you should feel an obligation to change my opinion and the rest of the Christian & Muslim world. But you guys don’t have any sort of organization.”

    I don’t feel an obligation, but I do care that so many people are caught-up in what I feel is a hoax or con, and their thinking is affected and sometimes that impinges on my well-being. Certainly glad I didn’t live in Europe in the Dark Ages.

    You write:
    “You would rather complain about all the ignorant believers and pat yourself s on the back for being the enlightened ones.”

    I would pat myself on the back for being so enlightened, but I’m too busy trying to convert all them Christians to the dark-side. 🙂

    twom

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