What Trinity?

So I can’t seem to find any references to the trinity in the Bible. I can’t even find any ambiguous mumbo-jumbo type sentences that today’s evangelical fundamentalists seem to use in their attempt to confuse me, and the general public.

John 12:48-50 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.” (Jesus speaking at Last Supper).

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever (Jesus speaking at Last Supper)

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (Also Jesus speaking at Last Supper)

John 15:9-10 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. (Says Jesus) All KJV quotes

That darn Jesus and His people. They just don’t seem to get the idea. Somehow we’ve got to get word to Him and His followers that we’ve updated the theology. Jesus just can’t seem to understand that He is also God and the Holy Spirit. He keeps speaking in the improper tense and Denying that He is God.

Random stuff
In the mid 1200’s, St. Bonaventure, a Doctor of the Church and Minister General of the Franciscan Order, argued that God had provided humans with as much knowledge as they needed to live the proper Christian life. “To investigate by reason beyond the point of adequate knowledge, is to move away from divine wisdom and be guilty of curiositas.”

This pretty much sums up religions attitude towards science. “We don’t want too much knowledge floating around.”

So ALL or MOST all of the Holy Scripture was handled and passed down by the Catholic Church. They had practically absolute control of Biblical literature for about 1300 years. All secular history of The Roman Catholic Church points to it being a very evil institute. It was a ‘for profit church’ and they killed and/or tortured people that didn’t believe the line they were passing down. You could buy ‘indulgences’ which absolved you of the sin of your actions. Also, I really doubt that the fairly recent uncovering of rampant pedophilia in the Church is just a modern phenomenon, and I doubt that it was practiced in just a few churches.

So, should we trust that the Holy Work/Scripture, the true unblemished ‘Word,’ and the proper way to worship and think about God were passed unchanged through such an evil institution? I for one have many doubts about this, and I wonder what…if anything…convinced God that the Catholic Church was trustworthy for this challenge?

Individually the Catholics are good people, at least the ones I have meet. I haven’t had the misfortune to meet anyone from the Mafia, or Columbian and Mexican drug lords, who all seem to be baptized Catholics. I have seen, in passing, some priests that were later shown to be pedophiles. Don’t they still absolve these people of their sins in confession?

I don’t know if God exists, but it would be better for His reputation if He didn’t. Jules Renard, French writer, 1864-1910

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Trinity, Evil, Sin, Death

Hi Robaigh, Thank you for you’re input, and good to hear from you again.
For some reason I can’t get my reply panel to work properly, so you are also on main post window.

Robaigh, I am always confused 🙂
Really though, I just cannot seem to understand a lot of things in Christianity. And I find a lot of different interpretations of the same events. In my posts I am trying to draw out peoples viewpoints and their vision of the faith. I try not to sound too caustic, but I’m sure I am occasionally.

>>The Trinity (Father, Son & Spirit; perpetual “begotten-ness” of the Son; procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son)<<

I really don’t understand this trinity thing, and from all of my investigating it sure seems to be a made-up-by-man thing. More than a few have tried to clue me in, but have failed. It may be crystal clear to them, but to me it is mud. I think I have heard all the standard explanations.

>>Salvation history – Jesus incarnated among the Jews as fulfillment of God’s promise to redeem the world via the Chosen People<<

I understand that Jesus was of Jewish/Hebrew origin, but where did the promise come from and why do we need redeeming…are you talking of Paul’s Original Sin Hypothesis? Wasn’t Jesus preaching that the ‘Kingdom of God was coming soon and for people to be good Jews?

>>the “problem” of death<<

>>the “problem” of evil (and the origins thereof)<<

I don’t see a problem with death. We’re born, we live, and we die. Most of the more complicated pagan gods promised life after death…I don’t think it’s a realistic promise or a realistic expectation. What’s the point?

Since God created the whole shebang, so to speak, I would assume he is also responsible for evil. People have told me nothing exists in this world, except by God. If in fact He is all knowing He would surely know right away that his creation of Satan was wrong…in point of fact, an all knowing God would have realized it immediately. He should have corrected it then, not allowed the melodrama to start. And why would a God be concerned with little human problems? Which we wouldn’t have had if He had left us alone and kept Satan out of Eden. The story is very lacking in logic.

From what I can see, it was the old Jewish men of the period around 1000 to 400 BCE who decided what was evil or sinful. We all have human traits, and yes, something’s are bad and we need to control them. But, I don’t think many of them are necessarily sins.

I also don’t think that humans need a biblical source to tell them what is evil. I think the ‘Golden Rule’ just about sums up all we need to be good/not evil.

>>>Are you actually confused (meaning: do you really want to discuss these things) or are you just “ranting” as your tags suggests?<<<

I think I have used the rant tag on all my posts. 🙂

I always enjoy your replies Robaigh…thanks for your time.

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Jesus is…God?

Hi Idugan, how very nice to hear from you. Thank you for your reply.

I had to put this on a regular post, I could not get the reply pane to copy properly.

>>>First, of all Jesus is Holy because He IS God.<<<

Now you see, that is one of the things that is very confusing. Jesus was a created being. If my mom and dad have a child…that child is a creation…of my parents. If God creates a being such as Jesus or Satan…these are “children” of God…as are we. We are not our parents. And why would there be no mention of trinity for a hundred or so years after the death of Jesus? This whole trinity thing really smells. I’m sorry to be so blunt. But, as you may have heard a hundred times already, I believe Paul, or the Catholic Church, or both, made up the trinity.

If this trinity turns out to be true (Jesus being God), does this seal-the-deal that God is male? Not to be Sacrilegious, but didn’t Jesus go around kissing Mary Magdalene?

>>>Satan and his followers (“demons”) were thrown out of heaven after trying to say they were “better” than God. Third, the Holy Spirit, also, IS God…not created by God…and that is why He is holy.<<<

Now why would an “Angel” go around saying or thinking (remember God knows your heart) stupid things like that? Apparently Angels are intelligent. Does it make sense that a created, most likely very intelligent, being would think he was better than his creator? Remember this is someone who is (or was) actually in the presence of God. An insider so to speak, one who…EVERY DAY…sees/saw the actual, LITERAL power of GOD in person.

This sounds to me, very much like a human creation. An attempt to create a dramatic scenario, describing something that WE have no possible idea or understanding of. Again, to be blunt…this is a bad story line. Holy spirit always seemed to me to be a phenomenon that humans experienced, not a ‘person or thing.’

>>>God is behind everything. He upholds and sustains EVERYTHING. So he is behind every birth, every breath, every storm, every step, every death. It’s all in His plan. (Paul, a mere human, cannot TELL God to DO anything…)<<<

If in fact God was intimately involved with us humans…I could believe…maybe…that this might be true. I see a possible God making the universe (ours) 14 billion or so years ago and moving on to other things. Why on earth would a GOD want to mess around on the scale of us humans and our petty disputes and killing each other? This is just logic. A God who creates whole universes has better things to do. He’s probably in another dimension, creating new universes? 🙂

We humans are way too egotistical in thinking a GOD would care about petty human problems. And the religious leaders have an imagination problem; they can’t seem to get a real image of a REAL GOD in their mind well enough to see what a God would actually be like. The story as told now…is childish…it envisions a very petty and small God.

The sin and redemption shtick is getting very old. Spirits in the sky and evil demons went out many, many years ago. Have you ever experienced one? None of the people I know or have known have ever seen one. I don’t expect to either.

Did you ever notice that God doesn’t go around killing men, women, and children in the New Testament? He, or whoever was writing about Him, stopped reporting on His bad temper and bad habits.

Again Idugan thanks for replying. I value your comments.

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John 3:16 For God So Loved…

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

God gave his Son. Not Himself, but His Son…to our world…well actually to the Middle East.

Now I suppose Jesus would be Holy, after all he was created by God…wait a minute…so were we!

So were the angels and demons and Satan.

So was the Holy Spirit…so was everything.

Are we all Holy? Are we all God; as Jesus is in the trinity?

Do you suppose He created them (Jesus, angels, demons, Satan, Holy Spirit, etc.) all at the same time or separately? If He created them separately, as it seems He would, then it seems that they are separate creations. A result of His magic…not actually “of” Himself, but of His magic…His spoken or imagined words…much as he is said to have created our universe.

Why does He keep killing us? Well actually, except for not interfering with evil (which He directly created), he hasn’t directly killed anyone (that I know of) for about 4,000 years…more or less.

Do you suppose He stopped because Paul told Him to? Bad image and all that…gotta get that “Loving God” thing going.

Boy, this sure gets confusing.

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Random Musings on Religion and Theology

The omnipotence paradox is perfectly displayed in the Bible at: (Judges 1:19) And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. GOD cannot defeat iron chariots; come on, your kidding…right?

“The goal of theodicy is to show that there are convincing reasons why a just, compassionate and omnipotent being (Christian God) would permit pointless and debilitating suffering to flourish. But any method of inquiry that begins with a predetermined conclusion is not rational and scientific, as one point of view suggests. Some suggest that the goal of theodicy is not to determine the truth, but to convince skeptics by any means possible that a reasonably doubted proposition is, in fact, true.” From Wikipedia, Parenthesis added.

On the other hand….

“No theodicy is needed or even appropriate. God is so far superior to humankind, that God cannot be judged by humankind. Humankind’s assumption that we can tell God what a benevolent and all-powerful god can or cannot do is mere arrogance. Also from Wikipedia, emphasis added.

(John 14:28) “for my Father is Greater than I”

Scholars investigating the historical Jesus often assert that Jesus taught neither his own equality with God nor the Trinity. Jesus referred to ascending unto “my Father, and to your Father; and to my God, and to your God”, and that he said, “the Father is the only true God.”

Constantine established the Nicene Creed long after Jesus died. Basically there were two beliefs afoot before 325 AD. The nontrinitarians and those who believed God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (What is that anyway?), was just one “Thing.” These were the Trinitarians. Constantine seemed to prefer Trinity and Eusebius, in on this gathering from the beginning, converted hastily to the Trinitarian view. Eusubius goes to work quickly, on commission of Constantine, and starts pulling together many hundreds of religious writings to produce the basic Bible we have today.

The word “Trinity” does not appear in the Old Testament or New Testament. Various passages from both have been cited as supporting this doctrine, while other passages are cited as opposing it.

So, God is a God. Jesus is a God. The Holy Spirit is a God. They three have always existed, weren’t created, so they are equal in power. So Christianity kind of keeps the pagan three gods concept going.

The Assyrians, the Druids, the Persian, the Phoenicians, the Scandinavians, the ancient Mexicans, the Peruvians, and others, worshipped “Trinitarian” pagan deities long before the Nicean council of 325 C.E. officially recognized this to be God’s “true” nature. Now this fits in perfectly with the Catholic Churches propensity to incorporate pagan beliefs into Church Gospel so they can grab and hold on to the flock.

T. W. Doane, a writer of the 19th. Century, says:

“The works of Plato were extensively studied by the Church Fathers, one of whom joyfully recognizes in the great teacher, the schoolmaster who, in the fullness of time, was destined to educate the heathen for Christ, as Moses did the Jews.
The celebrated passage: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God” is a fragment of some Pagan treatise on the Platonic philosophy, evidently written by Irenaeus. It is quoted by Amelius, a Pagan philosopher as strictly applicable to the Logos, or Mercury, the Word, apparently as an honorable testimony borne to the Pagan deity by a barbarian…We see then that the title “Word” or “Logos,” being applied to Jesus, is another piece of Pagan amalgamation with Christianity. It did not receive its authorized Christian form until the middle of the second century after Christ.

The ancient pagan Romans worshipped a Trinity. An oracle is said to have declared that there was ‘First God, then the Word, and with them the Spirit’. Here we see the distinctly enumerated, God, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, in ancient Rome, where the most celebrated temple of this capital – that of Jupiter Capitolinus – was dedicated to three deities, which three deities were honored with joint worship.”

Religion today is in the same predicament that the Catholic Church was in; in the 13th and 14th. Centuries. Science just keeps on proving the premises of the church and Bible wrong; leaders keep denying it, and cajoling the congregation to stay, against all logic and reason. Thank goodness they are no longer allowed to kill for disbelieve or heresy.

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