Morality Probably Doesn’t Come From Bible

Is the Bible the source of morality?  Many people think not.

How can this book be an arbiter of morality when God advocates the killing of people for adultery, for disrespecting their parents, homosexuality, masturbation (or was that coitus interruptus), kidding old bald people…things we do not even consider crimes today.  How does this morality stand up to the fact that God directed the Hebrews to molest, kill, rape (save the young virgins though), destroy, and enslave people, to bash babies against a wall, to run a sword through the abdomen of pregnant women?  Whole tribes and cities…this is certainly Bronze Age human mentality at work…not a God.

There are countries around the world who don’t worship a Christian God and they have as much morality as anybody.  Thinking back over the disgraced Christian church leaders and ministers, priests, etc., in Christian lands–they may have even more morality…and they certainly didn’t get it from the Bible.

Some of the countries who are lowest in religious belief are some of the safest places on earth.

The Christian God himself (if he were real, which is debatable) has committed inexcusably horrible, and depraved acts… that God is an utterly immoral being.

Morality does not necessarily flow from the Christian Bible, it has many other sources.

Did you know?
In California now the police can search your cell phone without a warrant if you are arrested.  However if you put the cell phone in your cars glove-box or trunk they need a warrant to get to it.  And, if you’re using an Apple iPhone of course that means your every movement for the last year is available to The Man.  This countries getting more and more like a communist state.  Seems the fourth amendment is going the way of first amendment freedom of speech.
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The Killers in Religion

Did Osama bin Laden invoke God when he planned and carried out the deadly attack on New York’s Twin Towers on September 11^th, 2001?

Did George Bush also call on God when he unleashed the bombers and missiles on the countries of Afghanistan and Iraq?

Do the Palestinian suicide bombers call upon God when they explode themselves in crowded Israeli cities and busses and crowded restaurants?

Do the Jewish people call upon God when they retaliate against the Palestinians with tanks and missiles and bulldoze their buildings?

Did you know that just Christians (Catholics and Protestants) fighting among themselves in the last two thousand years have killed over 15 million believers, much much more than that when you count the collateral damages that all wars bring, such as diseases and starvation.

Catholics and Protestants have both called on God as they killed each other in England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany, Italy, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Russia, Switzerland, Austria, Bohemia, Netherlands and probably most other countries to some degree.

And then there are the Jews…Catholics and Protestants have, for two thousand years, been rooting for the death of Jews individually and as a race.  Jesus killers that they are.*  Hitler with the unspoken consent of the Catholic and Protestant population of Germany tried his best to wipe them out.

And then there are the ancient Hebrews fighting and killing those sinners that God pointed out to them and sanctioned the death of…including women, children, and babies.

Do any religious people stop and think that maybe a real God would not do-or-sanction this kind of behavior…ever?

Where is the God in all of this?

What are the ministers and priests who abuse children in the name of God thinking?

What are the Bishops, Archbishops, and Cardinals thinking when they try to hide evidence that their Godly religion is pure evil? Do you think that the pedophiles of the church are just a recent thing and restricted to just the USA?

What are the Religious leaders of the world (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) thinking when they tell us that people of different sexual persuasion should be killed? Well maybe the ones that prey on children.

What is keeping the people of this world believing in a sky spirit that is so obviously evil and anti-human?  This is not an argument about free will…this is an argument against a false God…a fake God…a God that can’t seem to make its followers God-like or humble or good, if it does exist.  Do you think you should support a God that gives you no advantage for following him, or that never answers prayers?

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Evil, Original Sin, Babies, and God

The writings of Paul, and much of the New Testament (Well actually-mostly Paul), leads one to the belief that the human species is fundamentally flawed, worthless, guilty of sins we didn’t realize we committed, and deserving of condemnation by God. The last I heard the Catholics were even calling unbaptized babies sinful and deserving of punishment. I supposed this is why babies were bashed against walls and dashed to the ground, and occasionally run through with swords in the Old Testament.

Paul entered the pantheon of geniuses when he conceived of the concept of universal sin, or original sin, as we now know it. This concept gave everyone on earth a reason to pay attention to the death of Jesus.

Of course we all know the consequences of original sin, the preachers and ministers all over the world continually remind us. We all die now, something we weren’t going to do when we were created originally…or so they say. Those preachers, pastors, and ministers still haven’t explained all the Neanderthal and pre-historic Homo bones that keep getting themselves found.

We are also guilty of horrible sins that we never committed. Even though we didn’t choose to be born into this earth, and, at least for the first 8 or 10 years are immaculate souls…we deserve to die unless we get religion real quick…so the ministers, pastors, and preachers tell us. I kinda disagree with this whole mess of addled reasoning.

No one has ever chose to be born a human, with the theologically required evil, corrupt, sinful, and incorrigible nature. So for that reason alone original sin does not apply to us, and we are not guilty of, nor deserve punishment for some mythical ‘sin.’ We deserve punishment only for misdeeds we consciously commit. Babies and young children do not deserve the punishment of death for anything, as they have no concept of the kind of sin and misdeeds that these crazy believers in ‘original sin’ think of.

Original sin is a truly crazy concept, and that so many people have believed it for so many years is pure stupidity. It is a monument to incredible ‘chutzpah’ on Paul’s, and the early churches part. And for millions of people to blandly accept the concept and feel guilty for being born and living life is just insane. It boggles my mind.

I think we would be able to blame God for this dilemma, as he was the creator of evil. Someone who eats the fruit of a forbidden tree does not deserve to die. They were newly hatched…and had no concept of right and wrong. Old Testament has no record of God condemning us all to sin. Paul did it, and we have paid for it ever since. We all should tell the pastors, priests, ministers, etc., that the original sin idea or theory…sucks, and needs to be re-examined.

Natural evils and misfortune are brought about by random accidents, flood, forces of nature, things we cannot control, and are not caused by our ordinary decisions or any sinfulness on our part. This is a lie that’s genesis comes from the need of some people to ‘control’ a large part of our lives.

There are golden rules out here that explain all you have to do is treat others as you would wish them to treat you…and the Christians are not the ones who thought of it.

Christians seem to like getting into your face about sin…and they want to be the arbitrators of it to the exclusion of all others.

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The Trinity, Brothers of Jesus, Was Mary A Constant Virgin?

Hi again quickbeamoffangorn, Good to hear from you again. I’m putting this on column–much easier to edit, allows for more exposition.

OK, I went to your reference link, and I’m still not groking this. I only have Webster’s and Random House dictionaries and not OED. Spiration does not show up in Catholic dictionary.

Your link: “http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle.”

“Yes, of course Jesus had brothers and sisters, Mary was not a perpetual virgin.”

“Sorry this is simply a misreading of the scriptural data. The former point isn’t proven at all. You are free to hold the latter if you chose, but frankly if one places themselves in St. Joseph’s shoes; I don’t think you’d be keen on bedding down with a women who was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Of course if you dismiss the bible as historically inaccurate then that goes out the window, but then there’s no point in having a discussion either if that’s the case.”

Well on the above point I am going to take Occam’s Razor firmly in hand, place to my throat, and say:

Mathew 1:25: And [Joseph] knew her not till she had brought forth her *firstborn son: and he called His name JESUS.

Mathew 12:46-47: While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mathew 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark 3:31-32: There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

Mark 6:3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Luke 2:7: And she brought forth her *FIRSTBORN son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Luke 8:20-21 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. And he answered and said unto them, my mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

John: 7:3: His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest..

*To be called the firstborn may imply there are more, and the different scripture selections seem to back this up by referencing “brethren” in a separate manner than “brothers of the congregation.” Just a billion or so Protestant people’s belief. On the point of bedding down with a wife who’d had relations (in a spiritual way) with God-there may be some element of sexuality there you have not considered. 🙂

I consider the Bible historically accurate on most points. People, places, and a number of events, have been shown to be true by archaeological and other sciences. However these same sciences are showing that a lot of Genesis events are not. Of course there is controversy about the sciences intruding in religion, but I feel it is a legitimate area of research.

I’m not even close to being an arian–Sikh’s are weird. That whole mustache and beard thing is creepy. 🙂

LOL, I don’t know if your having a bit of fun at my expense on this one or not. Arianism don’t have to do with Sikh’s. It was the heresy that rocked Christianity in the 4th century.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

I think there may be too many arians around. When you mentioned this term, I immediately thought of the Indian sub-continent. This is from Wikipedia:

The Arain are an agricultural caste settled mainly in the Punjab (Pakistan), with significant numbers also in the Sindh (Pakistan). They are chiefly associated with farming (market gardening), traditionally being small landowners or zamindars

Being slightly dyslexic, I transposed the i and a. Well at least we got a laugh from it. 🙂

I think I do hold the Sola Scriptura position on most things I read in the Bible, as do a lot of people of the Protestant faiths. Although I am not of those faiths, I do follow most of their logic in regards to deciphering Scripture

“The Trinity was fought over for years before it was canonized; it was a human thing. Were it a God-driven message, there would have been no opposition.”

Now here you appear to move into what appears to be a Monothelites position (one will) another heresy only that was condemned in the late 7th century.

Not believing in a Trinity does put me in the category of Monotheism. Me, a Heretic? I’ll fight you all the way to the stake. 🙂

Wasn’t Jesus ministry itself opposed by religious humans? Does it follow that His ministry is therefore human driven? I don’t think that point stands.

The ministry of Jesus was opposed by the Jewish clergy, the Sadducees, etc.. It seems, from Scripture, that the common folk followed him

” Remember, God was supposed to be directing this thing. People were tortured for their non-belief in the Trinity. Does that seem like a Godly enterprise?”

Agreed. This was political then anything else. The Trinitarians were tortured, beaten, exiled and killed by the Arian emperors and when Trinitarian emperors came to power they in turn applied the same method to the Arian believers. Their rational was to create political stablility as a unifying principle for the empire.
Most of history used that principle. The church isn’t excused in going along with the states methods, but that does not invalidate it either IMO.

First, I don’t think there were any non-Trinitarian emperors. Emperors previous to Constantine did not believe in the Christian God. Constantine was the first emperor to convert to Christianity; all the others were pagan. He was the first emperor to legalize Christianity. When Constantine converted the Roman Empire to Christianity he was not a hard believer of one way or another, regarding the Trinity. At the end of the Nicene council he told the members to decide on Trinitarianism or monotheism, they choose the former, and there followed a number of years where the monotheists (arians) were tortured and killed for their beliefs–by The Mother Church, with Rome’s help of course. The 50 Bibles that Constantine commissioned at Nicene’s end contained the Trinity. Again I will ask; does that seem like a Godly enterprise?

“Regarding my using Bible literalism for exposition-Hey, priests and ministers have been doing it for centuries. ”

Selectively yes. I’m not saying it hasn’t been used, I simply saying it’s flawed.

Flawed or not it is used extensively by Protestants, and I feel no shame in using the same tactic.

“I think if this were indeed real (Trinity, Dualism, etc.) that there would not be the dichotomy we see in Scripture.”

Again this goes back to the reformation idea of sola scriptura. Your free to chose that position, just be aware it’s a 16th century creation.

Christianity has down through time constantly adjusted positions. I disagree on the Trinity and I don’t feel apprehension about it. But then I am not leading a billion people.

“There should not be a special class of priests necessary to explain God’s words or meanings.”

Easily understandable given the times we live in. As the secular world increases and the influence of Christianity continues to decline, the quality of all the Christians will increase, because true sacrifices will be required of them- especially in first world countries.

Interesting poll came out last week that said 45% of religious people have, in the last year, “changed” their religion. I wonder what is going on?

Been a pleasure “talking” to you “quick.”

Original Sin, Angels, Christians, and Human Suffering

If God is perfect and he created Angels, then all Angels must be perfect…Right? For what earthly reason would a perfect God want his mistakes to run around and torment men/women. Surely he is not following the awful melodrama/ script that humans have made up…Is He?

We are special; we are the people chosen by God/Jesus to live forever, if only we worship Him enough. Christian believers tell me that Satan is jealous and wants earthlings to worship him, instead of God. What is it about Christians and worshiping? Does anybody really believe that God and His creation-Satan, are competing for numbers of worshipers?

Do you really believe that God/Jesus revealed this unreal melodrama to Paul so he (GOD) could be the subject of ever widening human worship? Or is there a possibility that a frail human invented the story and wrote the script. Why would a GOD want or need this kind of adulation, down on the knees worship?

Imagine a human trying to do this to family and friends; what would you think of him/her? Would you want your children to kneel down in prayer and worship to you? No, all you want is a little respect; right? 🙂

In our egotistical, self-centered view of ourselves I don’t think we can ever understand the suffering that people down through the ages have under gone. There is no possibility that a live human can truly understand the terror and bowel loosening fear that people undergo when they are looking unnatural death in the face.

Would you believe the God who created man can feel this; or do you think a God would not care, or does not notice?

If God does notice and can feel this human total terror and fear at facing extinction and still, not only let it happen, but at times cause it, then He is worthy of rejection. If God does not notice what is going on with his worthy creations, when faced with unnatural death, then He is worthy of rejection.

Think of Adam and Eve, kicked out of the Garden with no resources, in prehistoric times. Is that a worthy response from a God for a first time mistake? Not one I would want to recognize.

Think of this mythical story that has been unveiled to humanity by priests, rabbis and ministers….Does it REALLY make any kind of logical sense….would we humans even be privy to it?

A lot of people follow and worship this magical spirit. Well, you know the old saying: “twenty million Frenchmen couldn’t be wrong” (I know, I know, it’s two billion 🙂 I sure would like to see some magic to verify things.
Some think that Demons and the Devil, or Satan, are fallen angels…Imperfect creatures that were created By God. If God created Satan and Satan is evil and allowed by God to run around and torment humanity then what does that say about God? Yea, I know. It’s part of the script.

Does the son really inherit the sins of the father? If a father killed someone and afterwards couldn’t be found; is it OK to kill his son? “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.” Since when have WASP’s believed that?

I have a new granddaughter. I look at that beautiful little sweetheart, hold her in my arms and I say: No way is she full of sin; that’s just bullshit. Excuse the profanity please. I didn’t say that out loud, but it was fully formed in my brain.

 

Answer to…Science, Religion Definately Don’t Mix

Hi empy, Thank you for your reply.

I hope you don’t mind if I made a column for my answer to your reply :-} Better writing tools and more room here.

You wrote:
>>As a Bible believer I have absolutely no difficulty to believe that the Universe is millions of years old. After all. where does the Bible give a date to creation? The word ‘day’ in Genesis can not mean twenty four hour day as our Sun came into the scene on the forth day of creation.<<

Would you believe BILLIONS of years? The Universe is probably at least 14 billion years old, and the earth 4 billion or so. Some theists think that the Biblical creation “days” refer to periods of million of our years’

You wrote”
>>According to the Bible the univers came first, then only on the forth stage of creation our Sun and Moon come into existence(Gen.1:16). Then came plant life and later animals came into existence. My Bible says that man came to the scene only at the end. To me this is basically agreement between modern science and the ancient piece of writing which the Bible is.<<

Excerpt from KJV, Genesis 1: 9-19

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Plants came before the Sun in the Bible, and in the real world, the sun came before earth. I’ve often wondered about that. If these “days” were millions of years, how did the plants survive until the sun was created? If the creation time were actual 24-hour days that would make more sense, at least the plants would make it. But then, that would make the Geological evidence WAY off.

You wrote:
>>The date of Adam and Eve can not be traced from genealogy in Genesis as the Bible often skips generations when it comes to genealogy , as Christ is called ‘son of David’, and the age of man on earth is surely much more than 6000 years. But it can not be millions of years as no trace of modern civilized man is there on the face of the earth going back to that time.<<

Allegorical reference to Jesus as the “son of David” The Bible lists in two places the genealogy that comes from David and leads to Jesus…They don’t agree on the lineage by the way.

Yes, there are traces of modern humans going back well over 100,000 years. In a cave on Mount Carmel, (Kebara cave) in the holy land, there are bones and artifacts of modern humans as well as Neanderthals. The human traces go back at least 50,000 years, the Neanderthal 100,000 years.

Many bones and artifacts have been found in Africa, and indeed over a lot of the earth, of intermediate humanoid forms that walked upright, made and used tools, and had social groups. They weren’t quite human, but they weren’t apes either. These date back at least 2 million years, although some argue for at least 3.5 million years.

IBM and the National Geographic Society teamed up a few years ago and started taking DNA samples from people around the word. Early findings are showing that ALL modern humans alive today can trace their ancestors to Africa, primarily Ethiopia and Namibia, and most all the lines go back about 200,000 years.

You wrote:
>>The Bible says that Cain built the first city (Gen.4:7). He was the second generation of modern civilized man. Tell us where is the earliest trace of human settlement on the face of the earth? <<

Well Cain was kicked out of Adam and Eve’s cave at a time when there were no other humans on the earth; according to the Bible. He married soon. Who did he marry? Some believe it was one of his many sisters. He went on to build a city…with whom? Maybe the Neanderthal’s, or most probably the other Homo-Sapiens roaming around then. There were human settlements everywhere 4000 years ago or 10,000 years ago, or longer.

There is tremendous information lying around on the earth to witness humans inhabiting the whole planet tens of thousands of years ago. Not a year goes by without at least one or two new archaeological finds pushing these dates back many years.

You wrote:
>>It may be of interest to you that the Bible does not concern itself withn pre-Adamic human race/s. The Bible only concerns itself with modern civilized man who occupies the present earth.<<

Yeah, that always bothered me. Was God denying his Neanderthal creations back then? They go back 250,00 years. There were plenty of them. They were spread all over Europe and the Mediterranean. They buried there dead, often with grave goods, flowers, personal artifacts, etc., so I’m thinking—they were thinking. That is they were reasoning, tool making, fire making, family grouping, humanoids …What’s up with God denying them?

Now if you are a conservative evangelical type person, you will of course deny that we can date old stuff, or they are lies. Nothing I can do about that, but if your books or ministers are telling you science lies…I think I would look a little further. Most conservative evangelical types I know, and I know at least 50, ignore evidence, because to read and cogitate on it would make themselves question their faith, and I think that is sad.

Anyway, I thank you kindly for taking your time to reply to me, and I wish you all the best.