No…There Was Not a Noah’s Flood…Sorry

So this Christian person writes to me and calls me a snob and complains that what I write is offensive for him to read. He accuses me of conjecturing on the basis of what I have been taught and therefore think I know…Well…DUHH…where does knowledge come from?

He writes:
“As a Christian, your atheistic views and dogmatic snobbery about them is offensive to read, the fact is that you don’t know – you are only conjecturing based on what you think you know and have been taught. You are no better off in your belief system than anyone else, so your high horse judgmental attitude is a put off; no different than any other fanatic, so get over yourselves.”

He is commenting on my blog of July 12, 2008 called:  “More Evidence against Noah’s Flood.”  Go Here for blog.

My ‘belief system’ is science, and yes I believe that my belief system is far superior to your Christian belief system when talking about the real world. Its superiority comes from empirical knowledge that is transparent and accessible for all to see and test…and learn about.  Your belief system is a book that was written by many different authors over roughly a thousand year period. It has many facts in it about geographical areas and some historic personages, but it is very flawed despite the denials by Christians…who either ignore the evidence or refuse to learn it.

It (Christianity) is also responsible for hundreds and hundreds of years of repression, torture, murder, death by any number of causes by believing in the power of prayer and just plain ol’ suppression of the human spirit. I don’t let Islam off the hook either…if anything they are much worse today.  The wars between Christian sects in the Middle Ages though was probably worse than any Christian / Muslim conflicts…so far.

He writes:
“That said, I like the scientific approach and take the evidence presented here seriously. As a critical thinker, I correlate between opposing views and take such opposite views as presented here with my own beliefs and research them out to further gain insight. I know that no conclusive answer will be had until Judgment Day, so I don’t get into this “know it all” game with people.”

Scientific knowledge is pretty much all I use in this blog.  I’m not just making the stuff up. I have been studying what I write about many years, and I don’t write about it if I don’t believe it. I think one can come to a logical conclusion on the evidence that is out there right now. There is no evidence, despite what the evangelical fundamentalist say, for a world-wide flood…ever…in the earth’s history. That is not my personal opinion (well, yes it is actually), that is the opinion of the sciences that work in fields that somehow impinge on that myth of a flood. That scientific opinion comes from lifelong work and study of literally hundreds, or possibly thousands, of scientists.

He writes:
“From what I have ascertained, a local flood in the Mesopotamian area some where between 3000 BC and 2300 BC is quite possible, and God’s Word to Noah written by Moses could very well have been in the context of that area as far as Noah need to know. There are also interpretation and time gaps from historical accounts that can account for minor discrepancies when trying to account for events thousands of years after the fact. So you trying to to pin “disproof” by variations of interpretation and context, just shows your atheistic bias – a dogmatic desire to “Not Believe in God.” So don’t make the mistake of excluding yourselves from being part of a sect as well, as offensive as that may be to join the rest of “us” in darkness figuring things out as best we can. Restricting the Flood to this local area also takes care of the only 8 people spawning humanity again “disproof” idea you present.”

There is archaeological evidence for a large local flood in the Mesopotamian area around 2900 BC, however there is no evidence for one around 2400 to 2300 BC, which is the time zone that most Christian apologists place Noah’s flood. The DNA evidence says that the human race existing nowadays does not come from either two or eight people. With all the other real evidence that backs up this statement in one way or another, I think I’ll go with this worldview.

He writes:
“Another point, is that I’m currently researching the aftermath and tribal dispersal of the people listed in Genesis 7-10, this historically bears out. So it is unlikely that one event didn’t occur while the subsequent events did. The fact that this probably was a local flood and beared out factually from there, doesn’t seem to be explored here. I think that shows a bias and not an actual pursuit of knowledge. You are too happy to gloat “see, there is no God” and “see, you Christians are stupid” for any serious critique of your own views to be part of this information.”

You might want to check into the information about the Earth being populated from pole to pole in the times that are recorded in the Bible. The evidence from the earth sciences is that the world was teaming with humanity and never suffered a total wiping out such as the ‘Deluge.’ We all came from Africa, not Mesopotamia, and there is very long DNA evidence backing that up. I’m sorry if that disturbs you, or you think I am gloating too much.  All the information is on the Internet and strangely enough, it comes from actual scientific sources, not atheist sites.

He writes:
“Suit yourselves, but I’ll take this information with a grain of salt and add it to the rest in my research, it does help and thanks for the research. And I’m as appalled by so-called Christian theorists that take no time to actually add any scientific research to their theories and likewise present a bias view. Besides that, I know there is a God and He’s My Father – if you don’t that’s your choice, but don’t get up on a high horse and deny things you really don’t know based on perception of finite knowledge.”

I am writing from the position of someone who is throwing the information out there. Many people will not read a scientific journal or magazine or take night classes in archaeology or religious studies, but might read a blog. My opinion, from all I have studied so far, is there probably isn’t a God.  There is just overwhelming evidence in all science fields that there is many-many problems with all religions, not just Christianity.  The Actual and Real evidence is just not there.

Christianity has no more superior knowledge, or more proofs, or claims to be more real than any other religion. In fact the reality of there being sooo-many different religions, and so many offshoots of mainline religions, each feeling that they have the only “truth”, speaks to the probable case of there not being Any truth…to Any God.

That’s just my opinion…twom

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Truth Saves

Are Angels and UFO’s Real?

A person writes to me saying that I should believe in Angels and Demons and maybe UFO’s because ‘so many people have seen them,’ and there are documented accounts of the phenomena. Well I don’t believe there is any ‘documented’ cases that have actually turned out to be supernatural works. If there were I think the world of religion would be vastly different than it is now…like the churches would be overflowing with people instead of losing people.

Here’s how I look at it.

According to MUFON (Mutual UFO Network), the one organization that keeps track of UFO sightings in the US, 12% of people in the US have either seen or knows someone who has seen a UFO.  That works out to about 4,000,000 people. That’s a lot of people.

The federal government has investigated UFO’s and they finally gave up, but they took it seriously for a lot of years. They ended up with about 500 cases with no explanation.  However, look around you…do you see UFO’s buzzing around, do you see government paying attention to the phenomena anymore, do you see widespread acceptance of UFO’s in our country, or any other? Anybody you know doing business with aliens?

After all these years there is still no tangible proofs that UFO’s exist.  In the early years of the UFO phenomena there were thousands and thousands of sightings every year, it drove officials crazy trying to keep up. Now they only trickle in, maybe a hundred sightings a year.

In the early years of the Hebrews and Christianity, people reported Angels and Demons, the Saints were visited, there were signs from heaven all over the place, Enoch walked and talked with God and the Angels gave him a tour of heaven, there were prophets roaming the countryside prophesying. There were people walking around who ‘actually’ saw the hand of God.

There are still some reports of Angels and Demons, but the government has never investigated the reports. Anyone reporting visitations from them are looked at as funny. Anyone who says they are in direct communication with God or Jesus is not believed…unless it’s part of their denominations shtick, and the followers are indoctrinated into this silliness. The Catholic Church kinda’ keeps track of bleeding statues and likenesses of Mary on plate glass windows and such. I believe they just chalk it up to the people’s simple faith though.

Simple facts staring us in the face.  There are NO bona fide or unquestionable, properly documented, official sightings of UFO’s, Angels, or Demons. There are NO documented cases of real Magic or supernatural events…ever.  How full do you think the churches would be if Angels were proven true? What percentage of the WORLD population would be Christians if Angels were real?  Christianity has no more, or better, claim to truth than Islam or Buddhists, or Hindu’s.

Billions of people can *believe* something…that still doesn’t make it true.

God only has to give one sign…show up in person to the world, or do something that is undeniably supernatural that the world sees.  Anything else is just men’s manipulation of the words…and people.

http://www.mufon.com/fastfacts.htm

They Thought They Were Free

“…What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security….”

“…To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it – please try to believe me – unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, “regretted,” that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these “little measures” that no “patriotic (insert country)” could resent must someday lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head…”

“You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not? – Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty…”
-Milton Mayer, “They Thought They Were Free”  UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS (1955)

President Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney knowingly lied to start a preemptive and illegal war against Iraq and admit they (along with Donald Rumsfeld) sanctioned torture. Congress passes the ‘Patriot Act’ without reading it. Bush admits he ordered the spying on of ALL emails and other electronic communications (landline phones and cells) of ALL Americans. Bush orders the repeal of habeas corpus (they don’t have to bring you in front of a judge and can keep you incommunicado), and search warrants are a thing of the past.

Feds can break into your house, without warrant, when you are gone, download your computer and search your papers…when you are gone…without warrant. They can threaten anyone who sees them…with warrantless arrest if they tell you what they saw. These laws will remain on the books, and they have already been used in non-terrorist related cases.

“You have nothing to fear unless you break the law…ever heard of mistakes made by police, ever heard of government authorities going after someone with a dissenting viewpoint, or payback to whistle-blowers? The side effect of what’s going on is a slow introduction of the tightening of freedom of speech and civil liberties of all Americans.

We must, it seems, come to terms with the fact that the government actually thinks they own us, they can financially mortgage our futures (and our children’s children’s, childrin’s) and to a very large degree decide what our future will be by manipulation of laws.

What recourse does the common person have when government goes amuck, “for our own protection’, and there is no more “free press” or ability to publicly dissent?

Is Christianity Doomed?

Christians nowadays are in a very unstable position although they will deny it strongly.  Arguing philosophy and exegesis of the Bible is pretty much a waste of time now.  The thing that is killing religion in our times is science and the unstoppable uncovering of evidence that disproves most of the foundation of all religions. Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all irrevocably tied to the Bible. All that believers in Yahweh, Elohim, Jehovah, or Allah can do nowadays is say they don’t believe the sciences that contradict their theology.

The believers in God have to deny that we can accurately date tens of thousands of artifacts and human bones and artwork and structures that are scattered all over the earth and give live testimony to our civilizations verrry looong past.  The many evidences we have for our past are real and tangible and their provenance can be scientifically proven…and there is so much of it.  The followers of God and Allah sometimes say that it doesn’t matter what evidence there is, God is outside of the evidence and cannot be proven…or disproven.

Perhaps true.  But, what can be proven beyond a doubt, is that certain things that are described in the infallible ‘Word of God’ inspired Bible are not true and not infallible or factual and that a lot of the stories are not to be trusted as actually happening.  Another thing that stands out is the actual explanation of the supposedly unfolding drama is stupid. The most stupid part is that Satan knows he will fail because it’s part of the drama that God set up…preordained from the very beginning if you will.

If you believe the story of Gods plan you have to accept the fact that God actually created this WHOLE drama from the beginning. He created all Evil, Satan, the Demons, He set up the Fall, giving us Original Sin, He was the playwright, the creator of unimaginable human suffering and death. A loving God creates two humans and actually sets them up for failure and then kicks them out of his care and lets these poor people try to survive with nothing…that part of the story is both scary and a not very bright explanation of a Gods actions.  Wake up Christians…A true humane God would not do these things.

Some things to consider:

1.       We know that the flood described in the Bible never happened.

2.        We know that humans and civilizations were spread all over the earth in the time of the deluge and  Tower of Babel.

3.       We know that Neanderthals were walking the earth for tens of thousands of years before a supposed Adam and Eve were created.

4.       We know that Homo sapiens or ‘modern humans’ were walking the earth tens of thousands of years before the Biblical folklore was even thought of.

5.       We know that Moses did not write the Pentateuch.

6.       We know, although fundamentalists deny it, that there are many, many contradictions and falsehoods in the scripture.

7.       We know that the Hebrews conception of ‘God’ changed mightily over the years. They once had a pantheon of gods and worshiped idols at late as 500BCE.

8.       There is no evidence outside the Bible, in other historic documents or the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people.

9.       No evidence for Joshua’s knocking down of Jericho’s walls or destruction of Ai and other cities.

10.   Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or were destroyed by “Sea People”-Philistines, or others.

Just the first 4 things above are enough to prove the Bible false.

Religion is a construct of the human mind…its explanation of creation is a story from a very old tribe
of Sheep/Goat herders, in the language, and with the worldview, of the times it was written in.  The Old and New Testament scriptures are very different views of God, and how he treats and interacts with humans…they are not compatible…and not ‘Gods’ word.

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God and Creation…the early years

Science is nothing more than organized common sense.  Kenneth R. Miller

So God is just having a normal day telling all the Angels and Satan and Archangels, Michael and Gabriel what to do, and suddenly thinks, “I’m going to make a Universe and some planets and maybe some live things to play around with.”

So he gets in his creation mode and conjures up (Ex-Nihilo) gasses, rocks, metals, water, fire, space, time, and any other thing that goes into making up this Universe we happen to live in.  He probably lets it cook for a few billion years and things start to happen as the Universe makes stars and planets and blows up and re-condenses and expands and contracts and generally does it thing, as it has for over 14 billion years now.

Now God apparently decides to make our world personally and he makes the firmament about 4.5 billion years ago, and he hovers to and fro over the waters and divides the land from the water and makes light and then the sun and moon and stars in the sky and animals and grasses and finally after about 4.499999 billion years or so he makes poor ol’ Adam, then pulls a rib from him to make Eve. Now all the while he is doing this creating and starting things in motion, he’s thinking to himself. “How can I make this creating stuff more interesting?”

After thinking for awhile he calls Satan and Michael over and whispers into their ears for about an hour.  Every now and then either Satan or Michael pull back and look at God like he’s crazy, but they go back to the huddle and whisper some more. The other Angels just stand around wondering what’s up with the bosses and why they’re whispering back and forth.

Now we cut to earth, and Adam and Eve, in this perfect garden that God has set up for them. They’re running around naked and all, pruning and watering the garden for a few (8?) years. Then out of nowhere comes Satan and does the apple/fruit of some kind…thing with eve, and then slithers out of sight before God comes.

We all know what happens next…God kicks them out of the garden, gives them pain, etc., etc. Just remember that it wasn’t till a few (4 or so) thousand years later that Paul decided they were part of his theology.

Now they are kicked out of their home with nothing but the God provided skins of some animals on their backs. They have nothing…they finally find a cave to live in and after some further wrangling with God and the Devil they start their family. The family thing didn’t turn out so well…they birthed and raised the first killer and they were left alone, until at the age of 130, they had another son, and then more sons and daughters.  Some say as many as 35 or more children…I really feel sympathy for Eve on this.

Now all this was supposed to have happened 6000 years ago.  God makes these hapless souls and promptly kicks them out of safety and into a world where they were clueless. The world was teeming with deadly diseases, poisonous plants, and killer animals.  They didn’t know a thing about making shelters, finding safe water, finding or making food, when to plant, what to plant, how to plant, how to kill and skin animals for clothing and shelter, how to make the necessary tools an ancient human would need for survival.

They had nothing in the way of knowledge about the ways of natures, how to make things they needed to raise up from the level of animals, how to live safely and comfortably and plan for a future they could not comprehend. They had no medicines, no knowledge of the possibility of medicine and how to treat any of the human ailments that we are all prone to. All they knew was the ‘Garden’ and the care of God.

Somehow they managed to survive and give birth to a race of people that numbered in the 10’s of millions about 1500 to 1600 years later ???

Then the Bible says that God gets really mad at these humans he had created, so he decides to kill them all…well, except for Noah and his family.  God reasons that this will rid the world forever of all these people that dis-respect Him. So somewhere around 2300 or 2400 BCE he floods the world and kills millions and millions of people, but He saves Noah and his sons and all the wives, and then he remakes the whole world to make it look like there was never a flood…just to confuse us later.

A couple hundred years after the flood was over the world was once again covered with humanity…millions and millions of people were spread everywhere on the face of the earth.  God looks down at Babylon and sees the people are now building a city and making really really tall buildings.  For some reason this kinda’ pisses God off, so he lowers himself from the sky, and with magic, he makes them stop speaking Akkadian and start speaking Hebrew, German, Chinese, Ojibwa, Spanish, English, French, Japanese, Korean, Canadian, Egyptian, and Esperanto.

This is when He really starts to mess with modern people’s minds…you see Babylon had already been built, and the towers were there, before He caused the ‘Flood.’  And of course the people then living in those faraway places (Spain, China, Japan, Canada, America, etc., etc.) were speaking their own early versions of their countries language…before the ‘Flood’ even.

So somewhere God kind of messed up when He plotted, and passed on to Moses, this great adventure us humans are part of…He hasn’t keep the lines of evidence in proper order, but possibly this is part of the plot…keep us on our toes, so to speak.

I can’t seem to get out of Genesis.  There are just so many things wrong with that story

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End Times, Armageddon, Second Coming. etc.

Got to thinking about the ‘End Times’ today (this being Sunday and all) and was wandering how close we were to the fabled ‘Battle of Armageddon.’ all the Christians keep talking about and wishing for. Seems there are still a few items from Biblical prophecy that need to happen before the actual ‘End Times’ are upon us.

“Megiddo was a site of great importance in the ancient world, as it guarded the western branch of a narrow pass and an ancient trade route which connected the lands of Egypt and Assyria. Because of its strategic location at the crossroads of several major routes, Megiddo and its environs have witnessed several major battles throughout history. The site was inhabited from 7000 BC to 500 BC.” From Wikipedia, go: HERE

This little fact about Megiddo’s being occupied 3000 years ( Jericho is even older) before God supposedly created Adam & Eve, makes one wonder, and maybe think that the writers of the Bible were just making up stuff.

“After the destruction of the Beast at the Second Coming of Jesus, the promised Kingdom is set up, in which Jesus and the Saints will rule for a thousand years. Satan is then loosed **”for a season” and goes out to deceive the nations, specifically, Gog and Magog. The army mentioned attacks the Saints in the New Jerusalem, they are defeated by a judgment of fire coming down from Heaven, and then comes the Great White Throne judgment, which includes all of those through the ages and these are cast into the Lake of Fire, which event is also known as the “second death” or Hell.” See Wikipedia HERE

Premillennialism is a doctrine very popular among Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestants in North America. Other premillennial groups include Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists. Premillennialists believe the Second Coming of Christ will be the start of the ‘Millennium’ (the 1000 year period when Jesus (God for you Trinitarians) rules the world). Before this period will come a time of destruction, war and disaster on earth, called the ‘Tribulation’, which will be ended by God defeating evil (Those pesky Russkies maybe, or politicians?) at the battle of Armageddon.

During the ‘Tribulation’ the Antichrist (Satan’s emissary…probably a politician) will torture humanity, and God will go to war against him. The tribulation will end in seven years when God defeats the Antichrist and we will enter the ‘Millennium. One thing to wonder about…why would a omnipotent God take seven years to defeat evil? Another thing that is troubling to me is that some Christians think they will be caught up in a ‘Rapture’ and miss all the Tribulation. Just like the Trinity, the Rapture doesn’t seem to be mentioned in the Bible…and some Christians build a whole church/sect on these things.

Hard core Premillennialists also don’t see much point in Christians trying to improve the world, since God is about to destroy much of it…and then remake it…again…think Noah’s Flood. I could kinda’ see their point here, but since all this is just very weird and wishful thinking, and old myth’s, they really aren’t very good world citizens…and kind of downers to be around socially.

**Whats up with letting Satan loose again…does God have no mercy?

********************

Many fundamentalist Christians believe that the building of the Third Temple is one of the prerequisites for the second coming of Christ. Some Christian fundamentalists in the United States support arms sales and military aid to Israel in the belief that these actions will help Israel rebuild its Temple and thus bring about the End Times. Critics say the actions of fundamentalist Christians in Israel and Palestine, which includes providing material support for Jewish settlers in what was formerly Palestinian lands, is building dangerous tension in the area. However the Temple Mount is now controlled by Muslim’s, and is considered its most sacred (Dome of the Rock) site, so its unlikely that the Jews will attempt to build a new Temple there for a very long time…if ever.

Well, I think we can count out the fulfilling of this Temple3 prophecy for the immediate future. I don’t think the Muslim’s will give up the site and Israel so far looks like they don’t want to start WWIII.

All this sounds pretty scary, but since there is already lots of doubt about the stories I don’t think I’m going to worry about these Biblical myths very much. And people openly and loudly wishing for the end of the world need to go suck eggs. 🙂

Actually the Battle of Armageddon was fought in 1918, British Christianity…against the Ottoman Empire. We won.

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The Killers in Religion

Did Osama bin Laden invoke God when he planned and carried out the deadly attack on New York’s Twin Towers on September 11th, 2001?

Did George Bush also call on God when he unleashed the bombers and missiles on the countries of Afghanistan and Iraq?

Do the Palestinian suicide bombers call upon God when they explode themselves in crowded Israeli cities and busses and crowded restaurants?

Do the Jewish people call upon God when they retaliate against the Palestinians with tanks and missiles and bulldoze their buildings?

Did you know that just Christians (Catholics and Protestants) fighting among themselves in the last two thousand years have killed over 15 million believers, much much more than that when you count the collateral damages that all wars bring, such as diseases and starvation.

Catholics and Protestants have both called on God as they killed each other in England, Ireland, Scotland, France, Germany, Italy, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Russia, Switzerland, Austria, Bohemia, Netherlands and probably most other countries to some degree.

And then there are the Jews…Catholics and Protestants have, for two thousand years, been rooting for the death of Jews individually and as a race.  Jesus killers that they are.*  Hitler with the unspoken consent of the Catholic and Protestant population of Germany tried his best to wipe them out.

And then there are the ancient Hebrews fighting and killing those sinners that God pointed out to them and sanctioned the death of…including women, children, and babies.

Do any religious people stop and think that maybe a real God would not do-or-sanction this kind of behavior…ever?

Where is the God in all of this?

What are the ministers and priests who abuse children in the name of God thinking?

What are the Bishops, Archbishops, and Cardinals thinking when they try to hide evidence that their Godly religion is pure evil? Do you think that the pedophiles of the church are just a recent thing and restricted to just the USA?

What are the Religious leaders of the world (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) thinking when they tell us that people of different sexual persuasion should be killed? Well maybe the ones that prey on children.

What is keeping the people of this world believing in a sky spirit that is so obviously evil and anti-human?  This is not an argument about free will…this is an argument against a false God…a fake God…a God that can’t seem to make its followers God-like or humble or good, if it does exist.  Do you think you should support a God that gives you no advantage for following him, or that never answers prayers?

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Sunday Sermon…The Beginning of God

When you are given something…do you expect to go out and kill for it? I wouldn’t.

If God gave the wandering Hebrews the land of Israel (the Promised Land), why should they have to go and kill the original inhabitants of the land?

And what of the people that lived there and were slaughtered? Was God mad at them, or did the Hebrew’s just make that up to justify their evil killing and maiming of innocents?

God sure thought a lot of people were sinning back then, or at least the writers of the Old Testament thought so and wrote about. From what I understand the Hebrews thought people were ‘sinning’ just because they didn’t accept the Hebrew God, or wash their hands before a meal.

There were people all over the world that had religions, and were worshiping different gods. Yet this powerful almighty Hebrew God, liked to involve himself in mundane Jewish affairs and was constantly involving himself and then punishing and then helping, and then punishing, etc., etc., etc.

Of course he never showed himself, he was just written about. Scribes would write all this stuff down after the fact and explain God’s motives. You know what; if you just read this stuff as a mythological campfire tale…it makes sense. If one tries to make believe that these people were writing about things we should care about, it’s nonsense. And it’s just Jewish myth.

I kind of care that old Abraham was tricked into almost killing his son. How evil is that anyway. Think of someone pulling a practical joke like that on you. I venture you would try to kill the jokester.

The story of Job is what really disturbs me though. I can’t conceive of a ‘loving God’ allowing the macabre torture of this poor man just to settle a dispute with his own (gods) evil creation. Job had no concept of what was going on, he was a human pawn that was viciously maneuvered and lost most of his life’s accomplishments. This was an abysmal attack on a total innocent, that could not conceive of god doing this to him…or anybody, for that matter. Kind of like the 9-11 attack on the twin towers, this was pure evil, godly terrorism.

The constant line in the Old Testament seems to be death and destruction to all those who try to f__k with the Hebrews. They are establishing their place on earth by hook or by crook. It seems everything is written to make it seem that they are supreme because they have a god they can call on to inflict mayhem on their adversaries.

It’s myth, just old made-up stories that have no relevance to anything but themselves. The Hebrew’s were describing their personal cultural super-heroes. They were making up stories to give them standing in the world, cultural pride, and to maybe help themselves forget that they slaughtered innocents to achieve a homeland. We’ve gone full circle it seems.

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Trinity, Evil, Sin, Death

Hi Robaigh, Thank you for you’re input, and good to hear from you again.
For some reason I can’t get my reply panel to work properly, so you are also on main post window.

Robaigh, I am always confused 🙂
Really though, I just cannot seem to understand a lot of things in Christianity. And I find a lot of different interpretations of the same events. In my posts I am trying to draw out peoples viewpoints and their vision of the faith. I try not to sound too caustic, but I’m sure I am occasionally.

>>The Trinity (Father, Son & Spirit; perpetual “begotten-ness” of the Son; procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son)<<

I really don’t understand this trinity thing, and from all of my investigating it sure seems to be a made-up-by-man thing. More than a few have tried to clue me in, but have failed. It may be crystal clear to them, but to me it is mud. I think I have heard all the standard explanations.

>>Salvation history – Jesus incarnated among the Jews as fulfillment of God’s promise to redeem the world via the Chosen People<<

I understand that Jesus was of Jewish/Hebrew origin, but where did the promise come from and why do we need redeeming…are you talking of Paul’s Original Sin Hypothesis? Wasn’t Jesus preaching that the ‘Kingdom of God was coming soon and for people to be good Jews?

>>the “problem” of death<<

>>the “problem” of evil (and the origins thereof)<<

I don’t see a problem with death. We’re born, we live, and we die. Most of the more complicated pagan gods promised life after death…I don’t think it’s a realistic promise or a realistic expectation. What’s the point?

Since God created the whole shebang, so to speak, I would assume he is also responsible for evil. People have told me nothing exists in this world, except by God. If in fact He is all knowing He would surely know right away that his creation of Satan was wrong…in point of fact, an all knowing God would have realized it immediately. He should have corrected it then, not allowed the melodrama to start. And why would a God be concerned with little human problems? Which we wouldn’t have had if He had left us alone and kept Satan out of Eden. The story is very lacking in logic.

From what I can see, it was the old Jewish men of the period around 1000 to 400 BCE who decided what was evil or sinful. We all have human traits, and yes, something’s are bad and we need to control them. But, I don’t think many of them are necessarily sins.

I also don’t think that humans need a biblical source to tell them what is evil. I think the ‘Golden Rule’ just about sums up all we need to be good/not evil.

>>>Are you actually confused (meaning: do you really want to discuss these things) or are you just “ranting” as your tags suggests?<<<

I think I have used the rant tag on all my posts. 🙂

I always enjoy your replies Robaigh…thanks for your time.

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Jesus is…God?

Hi Idugan, how very nice to hear from you. Thank you for your reply.

I had to put this on a regular post, I could not get the reply pane to copy properly.

>>>First, of all Jesus is Holy because He IS God.<<<

Now you see, that is one of the things that is very confusing. Jesus was a created being. If my mom and dad have a child…that child is a creation…of my parents. If God creates a being such as Jesus or Satan…these are “children” of God…as are we. We are not our parents. And why would there be no mention of trinity for a hundred or so years after the death of Jesus? This whole trinity thing really smells. I’m sorry to be so blunt. But, as you may have heard a hundred times already, I believe Paul, or the Catholic Church, or both, made up the trinity.

If this trinity turns out to be true (Jesus being God), does this seal-the-deal that God is male? Not to be Sacrilegious, but didn’t Jesus go around kissing Mary Magdalene?

>>>Satan and his followers (“demons”) were thrown out of heaven after trying to say they were “better” than God. Third, the Holy Spirit, also, IS God…not created by God…and that is why He is holy.<<<

Now why would an “Angel” go around saying or thinking (remember God knows your heart) stupid things like that? Apparently Angels are intelligent. Does it make sense that a created, most likely very intelligent, being would think he was better than his creator? Remember this is someone who is (or was) actually in the presence of God. An insider so to speak, one who…EVERY DAY…sees/saw the actual, LITERAL power of GOD in person.

This sounds to me, very much like a human creation. An attempt to create a dramatic scenario, describing something that WE have no possible idea or understanding of. Again, to be blunt…this is a bad story line. Holy spirit always seemed to me to be a phenomenon that humans experienced, not a ‘person or thing.’

>>>God is behind everything. He upholds and sustains EVERYTHING. So he is behind every birth, every breath, every storm, every step, every death. It’s all in His plan. (Paul, a mere human, cannot TELL God to DO anything…)<<<

If in fact God was intimately involved with us humans…I could believe…maybe…that this might be true. I see a possible God making the universe (ours) 14 billion or so years ago and moving on to other things. Why on earth would a GOD want to mess around on the scale of us humans and our petty disputes and killing each other? This is just logic. A God who creates whole universes has better things to do. He’s probably in another dimension, creating new universes? 🙂

We humans are way too egotistical in thinking a GOD would care about petty human problems. And the religious leaders have an imagination problem; they can’t seem to get a real image of a REAL GOD in their mind well enough to see what a God would actually be like. The story as told now…is childish…it envisions a very petty and small God.

The sin and redemption shtick is getting very old. Spirits in the sky and evil demons went out many, many years ago. Have you ever experienced one? None of the people I know or have known have ever seen one. I don’t expect to either.

Did you ever notice that God doesn’t go around killing men, women, and children in the New Testament? He, or whoever was writing about Him, stopped reporting on His bad temper and bad habits.

Again Idugan thanks for replying. I value your comments.

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