Trinity, Evil, Sin, Death

Hi Robaigh, Thank you for you’re input, and good to hear from you again.
For some reason I can’t get my reply panel to work properly, so you are also on main post window.

Robaigh, I am always confused 🙂
Really though, I just cannot seem to understand a lot of things in Christianity. And I find a lot of different interpretations of the same events. In my posts I am trying to draw out peoples viewpoints and their vision of the faith. I try not to sound too caustic, but I’m sure I am occasionally.

>>The Trinity (Father, Son & Spirit; perpetual “begotten-ness” of the Son; procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son)<<

I really don’t understand this trinity thing, and from all of my investigating it sure seems to be a made-up-by-man thing. More than a few have tried to clue me in, but have failed. It may be crystal clear to them, but to me it is mud. I think I have heard all the standard explanations.

>>Salvation history – Jesus incarnated among the Jews as fulfillment of God’s promise to redeem the world via the Chosen People<<

I understand that Jesus was of Jewish/Hebrew origin, but where did the promise come from and why do we need redeeming…are you talking of Paul’s Original Sin Hypothesis? Wasn’t Jesus preaching that the ‘Kingdom of God was coming soon and for people to be good Jews?

>>the “problem” of death<<

>>the “problem” of evil (and the origins thereof)<<

I don’t see a problem with death. We’re born, we live, and we die. Most of the more complicated pagan gods promised life after death…I don’t think it’s a realistic promise or a realistic expectation. What’s the point?

Since God created the whole shebang, so to speak, I would assume he is also responsible for evil. People have told me nothing exists in this world, except by God. If in fact He is all knowing He would surely know right away that his creation of Satan was wrong…in point of fact, an all knowing God would have realized it immediately. He should have corrected it then, not allowed the melodrama to start. And why would a God be concerned with little human problems? Which we wouldn’t have had if He had left us alone and kept Satan out of Eden. The story is very lacking in logic.

From what I can see, it was the old Jewish men of the period around 1000 to 400 BCE who decided what was evil or sinful. We all have human traits, and yes, something’s are bad and we need to control them. But, I don’t think many of them are necessarily sins.

I also don’t think that humans need a biblical source to tell them what is evil. I think the ‘Golden Rule’ just about sums up all we need to be good/not evil.

>>>Are you actually confused (meaning: do you really want to discuss these things) or are you just “ranting” as your tags suggests?<<<

I think I have used the rant tag on all my posts. 🙂

I always enjoy your replies Robaigh…thanks for your time.

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John 3:16 For God So Loved…

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

God gave his Son. Not Himself, but His Son…to our world…well actually to the Middle East.

Now I suppose Jesus would be Holy, after all he was created by God…wait a minute…so were we!

So were the angels and demons and Satan.

So was the Holy Spirit…so was everything.

Are we all Holy? Are we all God; as Jesus is in the trinity?

Do you suppose He created them (Jesus, angels, demons, Satan, Holy Spirit, etc.) all at the same time or separately? If He created them separately, as it seems He would, then it seems that they are separate creations. A result of His magic…not actually “of” Himself, but of His magic…His spoken or imagined words…much as he is said to have created our universe.

Why does He keep killing us? Well actually, except for not interfering with evil (which He directly created), he hasn’t directly killed anyone (that I know of) for about 4,000 years…more or less.

Do you suppose He stopped because Paul told Him to? Bad image and all that…gotta get that “Loving God” thing going.

Boy, this sure gets confusing.

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Do you Believe in a Trinity?

It seems all of the evidence for a trinity in the Bible…is man’s interpretation, as the Bible does not state this in certain, terms. It is not established beyond doubt or question. Well some sect’s believe they have, but they haven’t.

However, in the matter of the Son/Jesus being a separate entity of the God/Father, the Bible is perfectly clear. It minces no words and flat-out says, many times, that Jesus is the SON of God. Occam’s razor needs to be applied here. Stop going through all of the theological nonsense and read the words that ARE there, not what someone is interpolating = “Insert words into texts, often falsifying it thereby”

Mat 3:17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

1 John 4:9 Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.

John 5:18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

John 5:19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel.

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son

John 5:23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:25 Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.

John 5:26 for just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 8:58 “…. (Jesus) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus meant he existed in heaven with the Father before Abraham was born.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1 These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

When Christians pray, they pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, by the grace of the son, while acknowledging that the Father is God.

Everyday Christian prayer evidences that there is no Trinity.

Original Sin, Angels, Christians, and Human Suffering

If God is perfect and he created Angels, then all Angels must be perfect…Right? For what earthly reason would a perfect God want his mistakes to run around and torment men/women. Surely he is not following the awful melodrama/ script that humans have made up…Is He?

We are special; we are the people chosen by God/Jesus to live forever, if only we worship Him enough. Christian believers tell me that Satan is jealous and wants earthlings to worship him, instead of God. What is it about Christians and worshiping? Does anybody really believe that God and His creation-Satan, are competing for numbers of worshipers?

Do you really believe that God/Jesus revealed this unreal melodrama to Paul so he (GOD) could be the subject of ever widening human worship? Or is there a possibility that a frail human invented the story and wrote the script. Why would a GOD want or need this kind of adulation, down on the knees worship?

Imagine a human trying to do this to family and friends; what would you think of him/her? Would you want your children to kneel down in prayer and worship to you? No, all you want is a little respect; right? 🙂

In our egotistical, self-centered view of ourselves I don’t think we can ever understand the suffering that people down through the ages have under gone. There is no possibility that a live human can truly understand the terror and bowel loosening fear that people undergo when they are looking unnatural death in the face.

Would you believe the God who created man can feel this; or do you think a God would not care, or does not notice?

If God does notice and can feel this human total terror and fear at facing extinction and still, not only let it happen, but at times cause it, then He is worthy of rejection. If God does not notice what is going on with his worthy creations, when faced with unnatural death, then He is worthy of rejection.

Think of Adam and Eve, kicked out of the Garden with no resources, in prehistoric times. Is that a worthy response from a God for a first time mistake? Not one I would want to recognize.

Think of this mythical story that has been unveiled to humanity by priests, rabbis and ministers….Does it REALLY make any kind of logical sense….would we humans even be privy to it?

A lot of people follow and worship this magical spirit. Well, you know the old saying: “twenty million Frenchmen couldn’t be wrong” (I know, I know, it’s two billion 🙂 I sure would like to see some magic to verify things.
Some think that Demons and the Devil, or Satan, are fallen angels…Imperfect creatures that were created By God. If God created Satan and Satan is evil and allowed by God to run around and torment humanity then what does that say about God? Yea, I know. It’s part of the script.

Does the son really inherit the sins of the father? If a father killed someone and afterwards couldn’t be found; is it OK to kill his son? “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.” Since when have WASP’s believed that?

I have a new granddaughter. I look at that beautiful little sweetheart, hold her in my arms and I say: No way is she full of sin; that’s just bullshit. Excuse the profanity please. I didn’t say that out loud, but it was fully formed in my brain.

 

Genocide in Iraq

“If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” – “It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.” – “No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.” – James Madison

The American war strike and occupation in Iraq has resulted in the deaths of anywhere from 100,000 to over 1 million Iraqi people and the probable displacement of perhaps 4 million from their homes….depending on who you believe. But, they’re only Iraqi’s, who cares….the oil is there.
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

Of course a lot of these deaths were Iraqi to Iraqi violence (maybe 25%) that was brought about by our killing the people in charge of the infrastructure, and the consequent rush to fill this power vacuum. We, of course, knew this would happen and had good plans to counter it…But, the oil is there.

Iraq is now pumping more oil than they did pre-war…We have dibs on it…We have augmented our national strategic reserve…Who directly profits from this fact?

There are some rumors floating around the Internet that the Bush White House is playing loose with the numbers of our soldiers killed in the war. But, we have taken out a threat to our country, who had Weapons of Mass Destruction…Right?

Hey, if your son or daughter comes back in a coffin how do you keep track of the others that came back the same. There is no transparency about this matter, we have to trust our government to tell the truth. But, we have taken out a threat to our country, who had Weapons of Mass Destruction…Right?

We have made the area more stable and now have many friends there….Right?
We have made the world safer for our children, haven’t we?

Now we will be staying there for the foreseeable future, spending untold Billions of dollars on top of the near Trillion dollars we have already spent….But, the oil is there. Who directly profits from this fact?

Could it be the 2 oilmen in charge of our country….Naw…..we know they are honorable men.
They would never mislead us, lie to us, or sell us out to Big Oil. It’s not their fault that gas is over $3.00 a gallon.
They are honest men and will look out for us….Right?
Those rumors about Daddy Bush, the Saudi’s, and The Carlyle Group weren’t true….Right?
Those rumors about Halliburton weren’t true….Right?

We can trust our leaders….Right??