Jesus and Adam and Eve
February 18, 2009 53 Comments
Jesus comments in the Bible that he knows of Adam and Eve. If you go with the Trinitarian view of Christianity that would actually be God commenting on them…which of course “proves” that the Christian religion is true. At least that is what evangelical fundamentalists would have us believe.
There is just one BIG problem with that belief (along with hundreds of little ones). Adam and Eve, as described in the Bible, never existed. There is no doubt among earth scientists, at all, that the earth has had real humans, living all over it, for tens of thousands of years. There is not one bit of doubt among earth scientists that Neanderthals were living on earth for about a quarter of a million years. There is no doubt among real biologists that evolution has been going on for millions of years.
You can go back 6,000 or 10,000 years and there was at the very least a million or two people living on this planet.
Think of the consequences of no Adam and Eve; NO fall from grace, No expulsion from the Garden of Eden, NO original sin, NO need for Jesus to expiate our non-existent sins.
Think of where this leaves St. Paul…all that made-up theology is not needed any more.
Where does this leave the rest of the stories in the Bible?
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About the word of me
The Word of Me... 
I love the way you write.
The primary reason for people delving into the facts of Christianity is that it interferes with their freedom. Christianity prohibits drunkenness, adultery, abortion and a much more which people of the present day are so addicted to. And so these unbelievers love to find excuses to their denying the existence of God.
What would you say about people regaining their sight and being healed from different diseases including all kinds of addiction in Churches?
Hi vinita,
Wrong…The primary reason people start questioning Christianity is that they see that many things are wrong or do not make sense.
When one learns more and more about the religions, it can be seen how ridiculous the stories are and how they are a invention of humans. Religion is a chimera.
I could care less about the “laws” of Christianity, but I find that I don’t go around “breaking” them either. The atheists I know live pretty much as the Christians I know do.
Also I have known Christians that have ignored the prohibitions totally and have been drunken adulterers or thieves or had hidden sins. You cannot use a broad brush and paint all people as sinless just because they espouse a certain religion or sinners because of lack of one.
Those church cures of various diseases and health problems have been proven to be cons in 99.8 percent of the cases…the other .2 percent are placebo effect. Did you ever notice that amputees are NEVER given any help or healing. Through 3000 years of religion, God has never healed one of these poor people.
One thing you have to understand is that there is NO MAGIC or Supernatural forces at work in our world…there never has been. I know you live in a very superstitious part of the world, but hold on to this fact…there is no magic…
Dear wordofme,
Actually I didn’t mean to comment again. I fully agree with you that most Christians aren’t leading the life they ought to lead. But that is no excuse for the rest to not believe in Christ. Let me tell you this, I have been brought up as a Catholic but my faith has nothing to do with my upbringing. It is the experience that I had with Christ and our Lady that makes me believe in him. And also let me tell you I could have that experience only because I opened my heart to him. I went to him utterly sinful and miserable, it was he who is delivering me from my sins and I take no effort. As for those who are not being healed, it is God’s will again that they endure the suffering. The world and its sufferings is nothing at all compared to the glory that’s awaiting those who are faithful to him. Also, the sufferings in hell, a place for those who do not believe in God as well as those who do not live a good Christian life, is enormous and can not be compared to all the sufferings of this world. My dear friend, I would wish that you come to know of Jesus and his love. Science may defy the existence of God, however the truth is Jesus is God and he is alive.
Or at least let’s have a small test, keep saying the Our Father and Hail Mary every day and ask Jesus to reveal himself to you, you’ll know the truth.
Hi again Vinita,
You have a lovely spirit and I wish you great happiness and health.
Well, I’ve said it before so you probably can guess what I’m about to say here… 😉
It is my belief that Genesis, certainly the early portions of Genesis, are “Creation for Dummies.” That is, the real complexities of creation and evolution, which we still don’t really have a truly concrete handle on even in modern times, would have been WAAAAAY over the heads of ancient people.
I can think of any number of ways to reconcile Adam/Eve and evolution, but that’s one of the benefits of having a fertile imagination. In the end, though, anything I would toss out would be mental exercises and conjecture, and nothing that I could back up as “fact” biblically or otherwise.
I do think there were an Adam and an Eve. I think they were real. But as to whether they were literally the first people on Earth…I’m not so sure of that. They were the first earthly children of God, though, IMHO.
Hi Deacon, good to hear from you.
So if we admit that there were already people on earth for a couple hundred thousand years before Adam and Eve were conceived where does that leave the Biblical record??
Where do Neanderthals fit in with Gods plans??
A world population of perhaps 5 million (modern Homo-sapiens) people in 10,000 BC. As much as 10 to 20 million by 4,000 BC. The evidence for the preceding sentence alone makes Noah and Babel and Adam & Eve a lie.
All the DNA evidence says we humans–did not– come from just 2 people…or 6 after the flood…which most certainly did not occur. And I am not aware of any evidence for a certain line of people (Adam &Eve, created as a separate race by God in a Garden of Eden). The DNA evidence, from what I understand, is going back in time many tens of thousands of years and no separate race, just different blood lines.
I’m sorry to keep repeating these things, but there is just sooo much evidence and it comes from sooo many different sources and keeps refuting Biblical myths. For nearly two thousand years there was not much, if any, evidence around that could be used to rebut the concept of Christianity. There were so many people of real power who either believed or pretended too, and the common people just followed the leaders and did not question. To question was dangerous for your health.
Different story now…as we all know. Ever since men/women started to really study the nature of our world in the many scientific disciplines and let the real evidence carry them where it would…there has arisen doubt. You and I both know this. The doubt doesn’t seem to go away or lessen, to the contrary, the evidence keeps getting stronger. 20 or 30 years before Darwin wrote about evolution there were scientists espousing similar thoughts…it just wasn’t expanded and codified so eloquently yet.
A religion that is so fractured and has so many lines of thought and approved methods of worships and is so at odds with common sense is, to me, not much of a religion, and an indication that something is wrong in its very theology or exegesis.
Baptists tell me one thing, Catholics another, Pentecostals another, Quakers another, Jehovah’s Witnesses another, etc.. Yes they all have a common overarching theme, after all they have the same source from the Bible and its earlier interpretations, but the differences are huge and seemingly irreconcilable.
The whole of modern day Christianity turns on a relatively new interpretation of the semi-reality of what was written before. This new interpretation had no basis in earlier scripture and it was formulated by a man who didn’t even know Jesus. Paul invented “Original Sin” and for it to work there has to be an Adam and Eve. Take away Adam and Eve…no original sin. No need for a Jesus to absolve us of our “sins”…as described in the New Testament.
That whole silly drama that Paul made up can be disposed of and perhaps a search for a real “God” can begin. 🙂
“Creation for Dummies” ( 🙂 I like that..you ought to write the book) is what the Hebrews were writing…because they were writing it…not God. God could come up with something to put in the Bible that moderns could recognize. Surely he wrote to the times, but being able to see into the future he would know how hard it would be to convince people like me, especially since there was no more (was there really ever any) miracles being performed and no more (was there ever any?) prophets.
I read the old works by religious philosophers and what I really see is the making up exegesis to support their own feelings and understanding of what is written and being preached. They are making up theology…they are making myth. They are making sure they have a well paying job and synthesizing the materials they have to explain how they are needed to guide the common man to “salvation”
Most of the logic used is easily refuted nowadays, but then the uneducated commoner of the early times was easy to mislead. Actually, come to think of it, the common person is pretty easily guided today.
Sorry Deacon, I tend to run on. 🙂 Have a good one.
twom
Hey thewordofme, thank you for your wishes and here’s wishing you the same.
I don’t try to rest my faith on the Old Testament in a 100% literal sense (and I was addressing Adam and Eve as spiritual progenitors, not necessarily genetic ones). I wouldn’t try to use the OT as evidence. I rest my faith on Jesus’ life and example. And as much as I look at it from a rational line of thought, I can’t see how Jesus got the following he did, how 12 dudes followed him after his death, and how Christianity took off like it did under such unlikely circumstances…unless Jesus was the real deal.
Looking at historical records in general of the time (and the New Testament material qualifies as a historical record), looking at human nature, and looking at how hard it is for a new religion to take off globally even in our media-saturated world today (Scientology needed celebrities to keep it alive and people still mock it)…well, I stick to my guns that Jesus existed, Jesus was working miracles and Jesus was the son of God.
I’m not someone easily led. So for me to go to bat for Christianity and Jesus like this, having spent most of my life not giving a crap about whether or not God existed, well, I don’t know. How do I explain it? I haven’t lost my mind. I haven’t lost perspective on reality. I haven’t had any personality shifts.
I posit that I finally stopped denying a truth, and once I stopped trying to hold it at bay, I could see the truth in it.
That may sound all mushy metaphysical, but I don’t have any other explanation for it. I have less explanation for it than how I fell in love with my wife or why the hell she returned the favor…and even that earthly love thing between her and I doesn’t make much sense from a logical or realistic standpoint.
😉
Hi Deacon, hope you are well.
“…I can’t see how Jesus got the following he did, how 12 dudes followed him after his death, and how Christianity took off like it did under such unlikely circumstances…unless Jesus was the real deal.”
The environment of the times made it easier than it might have been. Whole books can be written (and have been of course) of the mix of people and politics and wars and suffering of the early Christians. What is kind of perplexing to me is that Jesus’ disciples almost faltered and failed to advance the cause. It took Paul to grab hold of the disparate parts and synthesize them into a coherent whole. Without him I don’t think we would recognize Christianity today.
“…and looking at how hard it is for a new religion to take off globally even in our media-saturated world today (Scientology needed celebrities to keep it alive and people still mock it)…well, I stick to my guns that Jesus existed, Jesus was working miracles and Jesus was the son of God.”
Despite their protestations, I don’t think Scientology qualifies as anything but a display of pure insanity and withdrawal from reality. I mean, who believes that our whole world and people was created by a godly creature or creatures from outer-space thousands and thousands of years ago? They constantly have to fight for their religions acceptance by the general public and many people from their group are vilified and denied common courtesy. If this was an earlier time in our history there would be talk of killing them off. But I hear they have little cells of followers that meet in homes semi-secretly, so they are likely to survive. 🙂 Have you seen any Thetans running around lately?
You say you are not easily led and you have a good grasp on reality and I am sure you are right. I find you are a good writer and a good human who seems to be spreading the Gospel as you see it. I really enjoy ‘talking’ to you and genuinely believe in your earnestness. But, you say “I could see the truth in it.” And I am puzzled. Which part do you believe you see the truth in?
If you follow any of the sciences and spend some time following up on any that impinges on your religion, it seems to me that it is hard to put any more credence in many of the Old Testament tales. Sure, the geography and personages is mostly right…not perfectly right…but mostly. However, no matter how hard I try, I cannot believe the stories put forth there anymore…because of the science, and that really makes questions come to mind about the realness of the whole story. Can you doubt the big stories there and yet believe that overall its true?
Again I run on…sorry.
I hope all is well with Mrs. Blue and family.
I don’t have too much problem with most of the OT stories because I believe that most of them are either vastly oversimplified versions of the truth or vastly overstated versions of it.
😉
Noah’s flood? I believe there was a flood. I believe it was deemed necessary to wipe the slate clean of a group of very bad people as a step in advancing God’s overall agenda. But the whole world? Nah. Very large area, yes. Whole world? I don’t even believe it was a whole nation.
Adam and Even. Whomever they were, I think they were waaaaaay farther back than 7,000 years. The geneology has been amended and pared back to hit the high points.
Tower of Babel. I don’t think that’s really where the diversity of human languages came from, but I think some variation of confusion being spread to punish some grand act of hubris might have occurred.
Let’s look at it this way: The stories go way, way back. They are going to undergo changes due to human influence. Jesus would continue to speak to those stories because they were essentially true if not literally so.
Kind of like Jesus himself. I trust the gospel accounts because they were written so close to Jesus’ actual life, in a time when there were some fairly dutiful historians and a vast improvement in the speed of travel and communication. So miracles ascribed to him are something I don’t feel a reason to doubt, because they were recounted at a time when they could have been refuted, but weren’t. Unlike someone like Mohammed, to whom the really big miracles, if my history is correct, were attributed to him centuries after the original accounts of him.
Jesus has undergone similar treatment over the years. The wild and crazy “gospels” came out loooooong after he was dead and are of highly dubious authorship. John Smith made up whole new stories out of his ass to create the Mormon church. Various UFO/alient cult type operations give Jesus a techno flair.
So, given that in 2,000 years people have found plenty of ways to amend Jesus, I would expect that the Old Testament stories, some of which are probably FAR older than 7,000 years, have shifted into something far more symbolic than literal.
Again, it’s my take, not yours, but you see where I’m coming from?
(And thanks, all is well with the family. We’re ready for winter to be over though)
Hi Deacon, thanks for your reply.
Do you think it’s possible that the OT stories might be Hebrew myths? Or do you think that the Hebrew people were really the only few people, out of all (millions) the people on earth, that God showed himself to? Surely, before the God hypothesis started in their families, they were not special in any way. They seemed to be worshipping other Gods before Yahweh…that in its self would be reason to terminate them according to today’s exegesis.
And where was Yahweh in the times before Abraham? And where was He after the flood? At least a hundred and fifty years after the flood before we hear from him again, and somehow Noah doesn’t meet Abraham.
Regarding Noah’s flood…it was probably taken from Gilgamesh’s story and spun in with Hebrew myth. If God was cleaning up the world…tell me how did that work out? Not only is the story totally illogical but if a God was behind it His work was a total waste of time and meat. I find it’s easily dismissible because there is not one lick of evidence behind it (unless you believe the “science” of Intelligent Design or the Young Earth Creationists) and the fact of its non-logical storyline in the Bible. Of course this gets God off the hook for genocide.
Do you think it’s possible that Adam and Eve happened about 150,000 to 200,000 years ago when the first or earliest (at least as so far known) Homo-sapiens appeared? Or possibly 50,000 years ago when human intelligence seemed to have suddenly woke up.
The Tower of Babel story just sucks…it doesn’t sound the least bit like a God would act. And in relation to the other Biblical stories and timelines, it could not possibly be true. Especially when you compare it to other human histories going on all over the world.
Yes the stories do go way back and most of the evidence points to around 1700 to 1500 BC as the beginning of them, although most of them (talking OT here) weren’t actually written down until about 700 to 400BC. Earlier than that time frame…the same people mostly believed in other Gods.
Regarding the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Why do you think the stories are so different regarding Jesus’ last words on the cross? This is way far past the old story…what color was the car that hit you. I mean we’re talking the last words of Jesus…some people would say of God. What do you think of the hypothesis that Matthew was mostly copied from Mark, and Luke was also…albeit to a smaller degree?
The dates I have for Marks writing is about 60-65 AD, Matthew about 70-75 AD, Luke about 80 AD or so, and John about 95-100 AD. Were they actually eyewitnesses…or did their stories come second hand?
“Jesus has undergone similar treatment over the years. The wild and crazy “gospels” came out loooooong after he was dead and are of highly dubious authorship. John Smith made up whole
new stories out of his ass to create the Mormon Church. Various UFO/alient cult type operations give Jesus a techno flair.”
Which wild and crazy gospels are you talking of here? I think Mormonism is right up there with Scientology in craziness quotient. Stories of aliens seeding the earth have been explored somewhat and although I doubt that it happened…hey, who *really* knows. 🙂
I really think its fascinating how so many people will kind of pick and choose from a menu of what to believe in God-wise and creation-wise and religion-in-general-wise. This is in no way meant to disrespect you; all the people I have discussed this in depth with are the same, I do it myself. I think this would be a great subject to write a book about. You write it—I’ll buy a copy. 🙂
My sister lives in Kentucky and she says they have been really slammed this year…worse than she can ever remember.
If you find my questions and ‘talking’ with you is something you do not wish to carry on…just let me know. I like discussions with intelligent people and don’t ever think I disrespect your viewpoints.
Im realy fascinated by what i’m reading here, im actualy a newly agnostic. Mid-last year i started being serious about God, and by natural progression i started being frustrated, and i started to feel like maybe God isn’t listening to my prayers. But i soon realised that maybe God isn’t realy listening to anyone’s prayers, now this confuses me even more, because it makes me ask, then what is the purpose of life?
Don’t have time to address everyting right now, but the wild and crazy gospels I was referring to (and I should have been more clear) were things like the Gospel of Judas (total bogus), Gospel of Mary (almost certainly so) and Gospel of Thomas (probably fake).
The gospels most likely existed in some form before the earliest copies we have access to. I mean, the gospels are one of the most well preserved and reproduced (in multiple languages even back then) set of documents in history.
But even still, whether eyewitness or passed down, and despite some differences (hey, biographies nowadays don’t always jibe), the documents were still chronologically closer to Jesus’ time than many written works we take for granted as being trustworhty historical records of other ancient personages.
Hi Deacon,
I really have enjoyed reading the Apocrypha. Although it is thought they are not very true, I still relished the continuation of the Biblical stories. I especially liked the other two stories of Adam and Eve and Enoch’ writings and the infancy gospels.
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“God isn’t listening to my prayers. But i soon realised that maybe God isn’t realy listening to anyone’s prayers, now this confuses me even more, because it makes me ask, then what is the purpose of life?”
I read many blogs and posts, but I don’t always respond.
I’m responding to yours, because I detected the sincerity in your words, and I wanted to share with you that which I’ve come to know as true.
God, by the way, is listening to your prayers. He listens to all prayers. And all prayers are answered.
I know that statement flies in the face of what you may now believe, and certainly what many others believe.
You see, God can’t say, No. He’s always saying, Yes. All prayers are answered prayers.
Now that statement requires a little explaining.
First let me share with you how we create our reality. We create by virtue of our thoughts, our words, and our deeds.
All three creation methods must be in alignment, must be in agreement one with the other for us to obtain that which we say we desire.
So if you’re asking for money to pay a bill that’s coming due, while at the same time holding to the thought that God will not answer your prayer, or that praying is an ineffectual act, then the thought behind the thought, (the sponsoring thought–the one that you truly feel is your reality) will be the one that gets answered.
You see, it can’t be otherwise. That’s how things work. It’s one of the rules–inviolate, and implacable.
I know, it seems harsh, and unfair. But there’s a fairness there, and, as with our human laws, ignorance is no excuse.
The Good News: The law works. We just have to stop using it against our best interest, and start using it to our best interest.
Now, you’re probably wondering why God doesn’t step in and answer the prayer you say you wish to have answered.
Well, the answer is: You’re a god unto yourself. As such, you must step in for yourself. In other words, you must carefully craft your thoughts, your words and your deeds in such a way that you’re sure to receive that which you say you desire.
God has created the rules, the laws, by which we may do that. We have only to adhere to those rules to achieve our heart’s desire.
Let me share a few of these rules: To him that hath shall receive. As you sow you reap. Believe and ye shall receive. Give and it shall be given to you. Forgive and ye shall be forgiven.
And the list goes on, and on.
The problem is that most people don’t believe that these are the rules that govern our world, our very life.
You ask: ” What is the purpose of life.”
Let me answer it this way: You have always known the purpose of life. You’re living that purpose each and every day. And so is everyone else.
What is it that we humans would rather do than anything else? What is it that some of us would even risk our life to have? What is it that we spend tons of money to acquire?
The answer: more than anything, we seek to “experience.” We want to experience everything, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Oh, I know: you say you could do without the “bad” and the “ugly.”
Not really. How else could you experience Who and What Your Are, without them?
How could you experience tall without short, hot, without cold, and good without bad?
You need them all to experience the all. If that which is not kind doesn’t show up, you can’t experience kindness. If that which is not forgiveness doesn’t show up, you can’t experience forgiveness.
if that which is not in need doesn’t show up, you can’t experience generosity.
If that which is not patience, and love, and purity, don’t show up, then you can’t experience patience, love, nor purity.
You need it all to experience it all. You’re here to experience it All so that you might decide, and choose that which you desire to be–to recreate yourself (by choosing) the next highest version of the greatest vision that you have ever held of who you are.
That’s the purpose of our world of relativity, and your soul purpose for being–to continually create yourself anew, through your experience of yourself.
Knowing a thing is not as delightful as being a thing, which is a by-product of knowing a thing experientially.
Now to the topic at hand: I don’t look to the Old Testament as a historical source of any kind. To try to reconcile it to the human historical record, is to miss it’s true import.
The Bible serves man in only one way: to assist him in advancing his soul, which is to say the experience of himself as that which he truly is.
The soul, too, wishes to know itself through it’s own experiences. The Bible gives us instructions to that end.
Emanuel Swedenborg, that great mystic, said that the Bible has both an “internal” and “external” meaning.
And he is right.
Others say that the Bible must be interpreted spiritually, or its profounder meaning will continue to elude those with eyes to see, but can’t see, and ears to hear, but can’t hear.
And they’re right.
Jesus, we may assume, read the Holy writ of his day, which is undoubtedly some of the text we now call the Old Testament.
He read then, what we read now. Yet, he found in those ancient texts a guide for life, and a path for the soul.
He distilled that understanding in what has become known as the Sermon on the Mount, and his life became a living testament to the efficacy of his teachings.
But if you don’t believe he was who he said he was, then both his teachings and his life will not resonate with your surface mind.
Yet, your soul finds a resonance with it, even if you don’t. But if you have suppressed your soul’s energies, then you’re bereft of your greatest gift–what your soul knows, and feels, and what your soul is seeking to be.
And did I read here that the “supernatural” doesn’t exist? My friends, if you only knew. There’s more going on here on planet earth than you know, the knowing of which would astound you.
Of course, I’m just a commenter here, and nothing that I say would be as convincing as the experience of it.
And you certainly don’t have reason to believe my record, no more than you would have reason to believe the record of any stranger that you meet on life’s little journey.
If the world hasn’t yet revealed to you its “mysterious,” and “supernatural” side, it’s because you’re mired so deeply in the work-a-day world of your human senses, that you have cut off all avenues to that other world.
I would recommend getting back to basics, and that is to meditate, and meditate often, and certainly daily.
Meditation is the best way to awaken the senses that you have allowed to fall asleep.
Here’s a piece of advice and wisdom: “Go within. If you don’t go within, you go without.”
Namaste
Scientists think they are smart. Evolution is also a faith. Which scientist can prove the big bang. Which can explain what was there before that and before that. It is just a theory.
Lets come back to earth.
If scientists were so smart that they can tell us exactly what happened millions of years ago. Why does it take all scientist, that work together, all over the world so long to make a vaccine of those small beings we call viruses. It will take the scientist 6 months or more to know everything about this tiny H1N1, if the virus does not change. They have a problem with six months. But they want to make us believe they know everything of the universe that is so big and was there for a very long time. Evolution is more difficult to believe in than the Bible. Just read with an open spirit, ask for wisdom and God will open your mind to understand it.
Hi Jacques, thanks for your reply
You write:
“Scientists think they are smart. Evolution is also a faith. Which scientist can prove the big bang. Which can explain what was there before that and before that. It is just a theory.”
Jacques, scientists are very smart and can take a very small bit of evidence and with today’s modern tools and methods find amazing things about it. I have worked with some and was continually dumbfounded by them. As regards evolution being a faith; I suppose it is to a certain extent because you have to take the evidences the scientists present to you on faith unless you happen to be trained in the field. But if you knew about the long process that theories go through you might understand better.
You write:
“If scientists were so smart that they can tell us exactly what happened millions of years ago. Why does it take all scientist, that work together, all over the world so long to make a vaccine of those small beings we call viruses.”
They cannot tell us EXACTLY what happened, but they can give very educated guesses based on many, many years of research. Let’s not forget that all scientists today are standing on the shoulders of their predecessors and continue to build on what’s has been learned before them. Perhaps if we studied to be virologists we could understand what’s taking so long to make this vaccine.
You write:
“ Evolution is more difficult to believe in than the Bible. Just read with an open spirit, ask for wisdom and God will open your mind to understand it.”
Yes, evolution is harder to understand because there is so much science behind it, but once you understand the principles and science facts behind it you find it much easier to believe than a bunch of myths made up by a group of ignorant goat herders living 3000 years ago.
Do you actually know anything about the science behind evolution?
Do you know anything about the timeline and history of mans time on earth?
Hi thewordofme,
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying scientist are dump. I know they cure diseases and a lot of necessities of today is brought to us by science, If scientists is telling me that God does not exist than with all their knowledge they are not smart, or maybe I should use he word wise, that is the Bible term.
You wrote
“Yes, evolution is harder to understand because there is so much science behind it, but once you understand the principles and science facts behind it you find it much easier to believe than a bunch of myths made up by a group of ignorant goat herders living 3000 years ago.”
The evidence you are talking about, that are so convincing, are there, as long as you want to believe it. And as long as you disregard everything else that seem to go against it. I have to look it up, but I think it was Charles Darwin who, after he wrote all his books on evolution, said:”When I look at the human eye, I can not believe it came from evolution.” Apparently even he thought that there is room for creation.
Job 26 : 7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Isaja 40:22. It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Not bad ha, isn’t this quite amazing for a group of ignorant goat herders living 3000 years ago. How many hundreds of years after did science discover those facts?
You ask:
Do you know anything about the timeline and history of mans time on earth?
Well, I’ve read my share of what science is saying, but I find the Bible timeline more interesting.
But you said earlier that 10.000 years ago the earth had 2 million people. What was their reproduction rate. It had to be higher than now, so what is science telling us that happened, because there should be more than a hundred billion people on earth by now.
You ask:
“Do you actually know anything about the science behind evolution?”
I think, a bit more than average. But have you experienced God in your live. If you really want to prove the Bible is garbage. Take a month, read the Bible, start by Mathew and just tell the Lord to open your mind and speak to you. The Bible is a Spiritual book, it’s not science nor a history book, but a coded message from God and only the Holy Spirit can decode it. Tell Him that if He is there ,you want to experience Him. God loves you and is willing to give you that enlightenment. If after a month, He did not reveal Himself to you, then you would what you are talking about.
But I must warn you, God is not mocked. If you take the challenge be serious about it.
I hope you do take the challenge. I will pray for you. God listen to those who believe.
Hi Jacq, thanks for your reply.
You write:
“Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying scientist are dump. I know they cure diseases and a lot of necessities of today is brought to us by science, If scientists is telling me that God does not exist than with all their knowledge they are not smart, or maybe I should use he word wise, that is the Bible term.”
You have no idea how smart most of them are. Until you work with some you can only guess, but you know what, it is not the scientists who are saying that God does not exist–for the most part. It is the people who follow science and can connect findings from archaeology with new biology and paleoanthropology findings, or any combination of the sciences. Scientists usually have their heads into their own field and don’t always follow other disciplines.
It is people like me who are mostly responsible for making the connections from disparate fields of study. For instance; there is no doubt at all that modern humans-Homo-sapiens-have wandered the earth for at least 200,000 years. And Neanderthal man who was darn near our equal was living on earth from at least 250,000 years ago till at least 30,000 years ago…there is no doubt at all about these facts.
What does this do to the biblical story of Adam and Eve? If Adam and Eve are fictional (and they are) what does this do to Paul’s making up the story that Adam and Eve’s fall from grace in the garden is responsible for our “original sin” and the consequent need for Jesus’ redemption. No Adam and Eve…no original sin. No original sin…no need for Jesus.
Regarding Noah’s Flood, ALL the available real science regarding earthly proofs of a possible flood says that there was no such thing…ever.
Regarding the Tower of Babel, which was supposed to have happened a few hundred years after the flood, which would put it at around the year 2000 BC. Consider this; we know for a fact that at that time and for thousands of years before then, that the whole earth was covered with humans–millions of them, and you can bet that they all had
languages.
Regarding Exodus, modern day scientists in Israel have pretty much concluded that the story as described by Moses was just myth as there is no archaeological evidence to back it up. No Egyptian history tells of a humongous group of people leaving at one time. No archaeological evidence at all for a group of a million plus people moving and living in the Sinai for forty years. Plenty of evidence for the walls of Jericho already being fallen when Joshua was supposed to have got there. The city of Ai which was the second town mentioned as Joshua’s conquest, was destroyed nearly a thousand years earlier.
Regarding Jesus, there are no secular writings about the man at all. We know nothing about him outside the Bible.
***Regarding the Bible, we know that the Gospels were not written by who they say they were. Whoever wrote them did not know Jesus and all that was written was second hand…they did not witness any of the happenings. We know that at least five of the letters supposedly written by Paul are not his works and that many of the other chapters are not written by who they say they are. Also Moses did not write the Pentateuch. It was most likely penned around 700-400 BC,
We know that the Catholic Church had undisputed sole custody of the early writings for nearly a thousand years and it is know that they changed, forged, misplaced, burned, and shredded lots of them; its even talked about in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
We truly don’t know if we even have any of the real words spoken by Jesus, as all is second- hand or later.
We have a combination of real and circumstantial evidence telling us that the Bible stories are nothing more than myths…if this were the work of a real God…this would not be.
You write:
“…but I think it was Charles Darwin who, after he wrote all his books on evolution, said:”When I look at the human eye, I can not believe it came from evolution.” Apparently even he thought that there is room for creation.”
That question has been answered many, many years ago and science has seen and described the evolution of eyes many times. This eye thing keeps being repeated by the creationists even though they know it is not true anymore. Cruise the interwebs and search for “evolution of eyes” and you will easily find all the information you need. There were several things that Darwin could not explain in his time, but eventually science caught up and all was answered.
You write:
“Job 26 : 7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Isaja 40:22. It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Not bad ha, isn’t this quite amazing for a group of ignorant goat herders living 3000 years ago. How many hundreds of years after did science discover those facts?”
Yeah, and they also thought that there were four corners and pillars holding up the earth and the sky was some transparent bowl over head that God opened up windows in to let rain fall. A circle is not a sphere. If you stand in the middle of a field and turn around 360 degrees it looks like you are standing in the middle of a circle, when in fact you are not. Also I believe they thought Hell was someplace in the middle of the earth. They also thought disease was brought on by evil spirits and that holy men could cast them out. People of the times had no concept of germ theory, which you would have thought a loving God would tell them about.
You write:
“But you said earlier that 10.000 years ago the earth had 2 million people. What was their reproduction rate. It had to be higher than now, so what is science telling us that happened, because there should be more than a hundred billion people on earth by now.”
We don’t know the actual figures for reproduction rate, but we know it was very low. Infant mortality was well over 50 % and many couples had a hard time even replacing themselves.
You write:
“I think, a bit more than average. But have you experienced God in your live. If you really want to prove the Bible is garbage. Take a month, read the Bible, start by Mathew and just tell the Lord to open your mind and speak to you. The Bible is a Spiritual book, it’s not science nor a history book, but a coded message from God and only the Holy Spirit can decode it. Tell Him that if He is there ,you want to experience Him. God loves you and is willing to give you that enlightenment. If after a month, He did not reveal Himself to you, then you would what you are talking about.”
I wonder. I have read the Bible many times…long ago. It never spoke to me. Regarding Matthew see the *** paragraph above. The Bible is a bunch of myths written by goat herders and was meant to be a guide for a particular tribe in antiquity.
Hi, thewordofme,
Here am I again. I won’t go on about science, because I’m not against science. As a matter of fact, there are scientist that believe in the Bible and the timeline of humanity in the Bible. And they would do better in defending the Bible on the science level.
You wrote:
I wonder. I have read the Bible many times…long ago. It never spoke to me. Regarding Matthew see the *** paragraph above. The Bible is a bunch of myths written by goat herders and was meant to be a guide for a particular tribe in antiquity.
Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Apparently you are likely to have the same question. Some of the things that are exiting about the Bible, is that it was written by ignorent sheep herders, but also by kings, by fisshermen and also by scholars over thousants of years and still they are consistant. The Bible is not a history book, but there is history in it, it’s not a book of poetry, but there’s poetry in it and you will find the definition of love in it in everyway you want.
You said you read the Bible before, so reading it one more time will only enhance your knowledge of the Bible, if there is someone who helps you step by step to understand it. You don’t have to be a believer as I am, but you will know why through the ages the Bible is the best seller. And thou through the ages people try to distroy it, they never managed.
Take that journey with me. And since you read the Bible already, we will start at Daniel,
( a prophet) and then we will go to the Revelation. If you understand those two books with their symbols, you will know a lot of what the Bible is trying to say, because the rest of the Bible is explaning these two books.
Hi Jacq,
Sorry I am a bit short on time right now…I will reply just as soon as I can.
Hi Jacq, sorry to take so long to get back to you.
As a matter of fact I am corresponding with a Bible believing scientist right now. Her defense of religion vs. science so far consists of not believing what she learned in science classes…this, despite the fact that she holds a masters degree in Biochemistry and works in a scientific field. She also seems to be a Young Earth Creationist (YEC)
You write:
“Apparently you are likely to have the same question. Some of the things that are exiting about the Bible, is that it was written by ignorent sheep herders, but also by kings, by fisshermen and also by scholars over thousants of years and still they are consistant. The Bible is not a history book, but there is history in it, it’s not a book of poetry, but there’s poetry in it and you will find the definition of love in it in everyway you want.”
I follow you about the Bible being exciting, but for different reasons. I look at the book in its entirety and can see that it wasn’t inspired or “God breathed.” There is absolutely no sense or feeling in it that seems to be aware of or cognizant of a wider world or knowledge of things out of the ordinary for the times.
If in fact God were real, His book would be recognized everywhere and by everybody on this earth. His book would be written in such a way that there would be NO denying its truth, you could read it and immediately see and understand. There could be no competing religions, as the real God would be so apparent that you would just KNOW all others were frauds.
A real God would not have His religion splintered into a thousand pieces with competing theologies and apologia; it would be self evident and undeniable to all. There would not be the mistakes and inconsistencies and anachronisms in the Bible, perhaps even Jesus would be well attested by secular sources.
You write:
“Take that journey with me. And since you read the Bible already, we will start at Daniel,
( a prophet) and then we will go to the Revelation. If you understand those two books with their symbols, you will know a lot of what the Bible is trying to say, because the rest of the Bible is explaning these two books.”
No need to do this as I have a believer and Biblical scholar in-house, so to speak.
Peace to you Jacq.
Twom
I believe, for Salvation; the Bible is clear. For more you have to study it. And for the many relegions, it’s up to everyone to make their choice what to believe. At the end it will be determent who was right and who was wrong.
When you have some time to spare: http://www.amazingfacts.org and http://www.3abn.org
God bless and I hope one day you will be able to see, not the human way, but God’s way.
Peace to you too, thewordofme.
Hay thewordof me,
I couldn’t not resist the temptation to say one more thing, You don’t have to answer. I just kept thinking about what you wrote:
If in fact God were real, His book would be recognized everywhere and by everybody on this earth. His book would be written in such a way that there would be NO denying its truth, you could read it and immediately see and understand. There could be no competing religions, as the real God would be so apparent that you would just KNOW all others were frauds.
So Gods book is not clear enough. Well lets look on what is clear and what human beings do with it. Take alcohol. Everyone know you can’t drink and drive and see how many people do it. In Europe on the cigarette pack is saying : Smoking is deadly. And everywhere in the world people know that smoking is deadly. How many people is acting as if they know what is right.
So by this you know how strong your argument is that the Bible is not clear enough to be the Word of a real God. Everyone is free to choose what they want to believe, God did not make us as robots.
Peace to you thewordofme.
Hi Jacq,
You write:
“Take alcohol. Everyone know you can’t drink and drive and see how many people do it.”
Everyone knows that the more you drink the stupider you get.
You write:
“In Europe on the cigarette pack is saying : Smoking is deadly. And everywhere in the world people know that smoking is deadly. How many people is acting as if they know what is right.”
Everyone knows that cigarettes are addictive…some say like cocaine, most smokers start when young and they think they are invincible.
Again I submit to you the Bible is NOT the word of a God; if it was, we would know without a doubt in the world. And there would be no other religions in the world.
twom
You wrote:
Everyone knows that the more you drink the stupider you get.
Everyone knows that cigarettes are addictive…some say like cocaine, most smokers start when young and they think they are invincible.
So, it’s not their fault they are drinking or smoking, it’s the fault of the alcohol and the cigarettes by being addictive?
That ‘s the carnal way of thinking. Now, the Bible see it another way.
“They made the choice to start smoking or drinking (a lot make the choice not to start) and they can make the choice to stop after they have started and again a lot made that choice before them”.
Because of our sinful nature we can not even handle the simplest note that tell us we are in danger.
So there is no way we would be able to understand the supreme Power that govern the universe, without help from the Holy Spirit.
Reading the Bible and studying the Bible history is not enough to know the Bible as the Word of God.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. KJV.
So to understand the Word of God you must be lead by the Holy Spirit. “The Bible is not the Word of God?”. Your are just kicking against something that is much and much bigger than you are.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You talk about what you can see, hear and understand, that is so limited, although it seem a lot to you it’s as what an ants know about a 747.
1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
But most of all the Bible says that God loves us.
Heb 8:12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
That and many more is what God promises in His Word.
When you find a book that surpasses the Bible as the Word of God. Let me know!
Hi again Jacq, thanks for your reply.
Hundreds of books have been written about addiction and the many causes of it. I don’t think it can be said that there is one single cause. I am aware that many people do not smoke and drink…I am one of them. In an earlier life though, I fought cigarette addiction. So I have an understanding of substance abuse.
You write:
“Because of our sinful nature we cannot even handle the simplest note that tell us we are in danger.”
I think this can better be described as stupidity rather than human sinful nature.
You write:
“John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth. “
Since I do not believe there is a God why would I worship him? If Gods existence can be proven then I will ask if he wants to be worshiped. Why would anyone want to be worshiped?
You write:
“Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
I beg to differ with you; faith is not evidence for anything except for a willingness to believe something without any proof.
You write:
“1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.”
This scripture is used by fundamentalists to keep their followers from learning about the real world and all the evidence that religion is a fraud.
You write:
“But most of all the Bible says that God loves us.”
You must not have read the Old Testament and all the old stories of how God caused the Hebrews to go around killing indiscriminately, women, children, babies, and animals…doesn’t matter, bash their heads into walls, run them through with swords, chop their heads off, throw them into the fire. The God of the OT was a monster, as evil as Satan, and the Bible tells us that God is unchanging.
You write:
“When you find a book that surpasses the Bible as the Word of God. Let me know!”
The Bible is full of holes; it has many discrepancies, anachronisms, untruths, and evils in it. It really doesn’t seem like a work that a real God would want to claim
twom
You wrote:
This scripture is used by fundamentalists to keep their followers from learning about the real world and all the evidence that religion is a fraud.
People use the Bible for a lot of things. A knife is sometimes used to kill someone, but it is not the knife that is bad. It is the one who use it. And again God leave it to a certain extend to us to make our choices in life.
Religion is a fraud?. Do you understand the ten commandments. It is the highest moral achievement possible. Take “Thou shalt not steal”. If you don’t steal because you could be caught you are still a thief and is condemned by the law. It goes further than what we see. If I want to be right with God, I have to be purer than any unbeliever or unfaithful who think that as long as they don’t touch it, it is OK.
You wrote:
You must not have read the Old Testament and all the old stories of how God caused the Hebrews to go around killing indiscriminately, women, children, babies, and animals…doesn’t matter, bash their heads into walls, run them through with swords, chop their heads off, throw them into the fire. The God of the OT was a monster, as evil as Satan, and the Bible tells us that God is unchanging.
Of course I know that and I can’t say I understand everything that happened there, but I believe that God is right in everything He does.
I can also say that they weren’t to do it just to any nation or all the nations they met. They would only do it when a nations probation is closed. Among them were nations that used to sacrifice their own children to their gods. And of course in a war you have accessions.
By the way they were at war, they had man to man fights in those days and how practicle would it be for a general to tell his soldiers to fight only with the men. From which age and how to determent that. What to do when the women start to fight too. And after the war, you collect all the babies and kids? Would you want to live with teens in your house who by then will know that you kill their parents.
How are we doing it today when we throw a bomb. Because we don’t see what happened to the babies we are better? If you are a soldier behind enemy lines and an unarmed child of about five is walking toward you but you can also see a couple of soldiers behind it. Would you shoot or not? In Arafat days they sent kids with bombs to Israel. When Israel throw a bomb, who cares what happens.
I ‘m not saying that my ideas were the considerations back then, I just don’t know, but I know there was a reason for it. And it’s easy to judge others when you don’t face the decisions they face.
And at the end of time those who were laughing and ridiculing God and His Word will face His judgment. According to the Bible, (which you don’t accept) in Noach days His judgment was also for man, women, children, babies and animals. People that don’t believe don’t want their kids to go to church, so doing they also determent the child’s faith. God is love but also awesome and everyone will be judged according to His law.
Cheers
Hi Jacq, thanks for writing
You write:
“People use the Bible for a lot of things. A knife is sometimes used to kill someone, but it is not the knife that is bad. It is the one who use it. And again God leave it to a certain extend to us to make our choices in life.”
Fundamentalist type religious people use the Bible to keep their believers in line and not asking any questions. They quote a few verses that seem to say if you believe “other books” you will go to hell or be drummed out of the church. The leaders in the many thousands of denominations do not want their flocks reading too much of the sciences because many of them are clearly refuting religious claims.
You write:
“Religion is a fraud?. Do you understand the ten commandments. It is the highest moral achievement possible. Take “Thou shalt not steal”. If you don’t steal because you could be caught you are still a thief and is condemned by the law…”
The Ten Commandments are no such thing…the Golden Rule accomplishes the same thing with a whole lot less words. Not only that, but the “GR” was thought up by 4 or 5 different civilizations hundreds of years before the Ten Commandments were.
You write:
“Of course I know that (regards killing women, children, and babies) and I can’t say I understand everything that happened there, but I believe that God is right in everything He does.
Well of course you would, you have much of your life and intellect invested in this con. I know you will not be talked out of your position. What I am doing with this blog is putting real information “out there” and hoping that a few people will read it and maybe think a little harder before they fall for false religions. I can provide information that can be checked for reliability and truth…the Bible is just full of lies and half truths.
You write:
“By the way they were at war, they had man to man fights in those days and how practicle would it be for a general to tell his soldiers to fight only with the men. From which age and how to determent that. What to do when the women start to fight too. And after the war, you collect all the babies and kids? Would you want to live with teens in your house who by then will know you killed their parents?”
From what I understand about those times the women were not involved in fighting at all and there were no explosives (TNT, Nitro, C-4, etc.) in Biblical times for children to wear into the opposing armies ranks…and children didn’t fight either. No, God wanted genocide on those he wasn’t happy with.
But, of course there is no God, so all of this is moot. I just try to show how silly and childish the religion is. The stories are fiction, they show no supernatural knowledge of anything…just common (barely past caveman) understanding of their physical world. The world was making up religions in this time in our human history; there were literally hundreds of them. Jewishness and the much later Christianity just lucked out and caught on.
You write:
“How are we doing it today when we throw a bomb. Because we don’t see what happened to the babies we are better? If you are a soldier behind enemy lines and an unarmed child of about five is walking toward you but you can also see a couple of soldiers behind it. Would you shoot or not? In Arafat days they sent kids with bombs to Israel. When Israel throw a bomb, who cares what happens.”
Yeah war is a bitch. The world would be better off if we citizens took away governments power to wage war. The use of war powers has totally screwed up the world.
And at the end of time those who were laughing and ridiculing God and His Word will face His judgment. According to the Bible, (which you don’t accept) in Noach days His judgment was also for man, women, children, babies and animals. People that don’t believe don’t want their kids to go to church, so doing they also determent the child’s faith. God is love but also awesome and everyone will be judged according to His law.
God is not love. Christians need to get this fact embedded in their brains. God created evil and diseases and allows human suffering on a gigantic scale without the least bit of help. If he were real I don’t know how he would be able to ignore the screams of agony and death that rise up into the heavens every day. If God were real all he would have to do is kill off Satan and get rid of all the killer diseases he created…oh yeah, and feed the poor people in Africa, or at least help us do it.
He has interfered in human affairs many times before, if you believe the stories…why not now?
twom
You wrote:
The Ten Commandments are no such thing…the Golden Rule accomplishes the same thing with a whole lot less words. Not only that, but the “GR” was thought up by 4 or 5 different civilizations hundreds of years before the Ten Commandments were.
Please let us know which 4 or 5 different civilizations and can you spell out the GR in those few words
You wrote:
What I am doing with this blog is putting real information “out there” and hoping that a few people will read it and maybe think a little harder before they fall for false religions. I can provide information that can be checked for reliability and truth…the Bible is just full of lies and half truths.
You are not the first one that is trying to do this. Check in history and you’ll see they succeeded maybe for a while, but after that , they were no more.
The infidel Voltaire once boastingly said: “I am weary of hearing people repeat that twelve men established the Christian religion. I will prove that one man may suffice to overthrow it.” Generations have passed since his death. Millions have joined in the war upon the Bible. But it is so far from being destroyed, that where there were a hundred in Voltaire’s time, there are now ten thousand, yes, a hundred thousand copies of the book of God. In the words of an early Reformer concerning the Christian church, “The Bible is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.”
When the Titanic set sail the captain say they don’t need God because the ship was unsinceble. Was it? But he is not here to realize that.
You wrote:
God is not love. Christians need to get this fact embedded in their brains. God created evil and diseases and allows human suffering on a gigantic scale without the least bit of help. If he were real I don’t know how he would be able to ignore the screams of agony and death that rise up into the heavens every day. If God were real all he would have to do is kill off Satan and get rid of all the killer diseases he created…oh yeah, and feed the poor people in Africa, or at least help us do it.
I’ve heard this before, we’ve mest up this world and we want God to clean the mess up. What you are looking for is a genie in a bottle. If a worker in any country make such a mistake that the company loose a lot of money, he will be fired. The bank managers let thebanks all over the world loose a lot of many that I can’t even emagine the figure and the goverments rewarth them for it. They can keep their bonus and more. Even if God would raindown dollars on the poor people, the rich people would find a way to steal it.
God work by influensing people to do a work and those who are willing will do it. You are free to refuse, but you can’t stop it
Cheers.
Hi Jacq, nice to hear from you again.
You write:
“Please let us know which 4 or 5 different civilizations and can you spell out the GR in those few words”
The Golden Rule was a common principle in ancient Greek philosophy. Examples of the general concept include:
• “Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him.” – Pittacus
• “Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.” – Thales
• “What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them.” – Sextus the Pythagorean
• “Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others.” – Isocrates
• “What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others.” – Epictetus
• “It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing ‘neither to harm nor be harmed’
and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life.” – Epicurus
• “One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.” – Plato’s Socrates
Confucianism: “Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.” Confucius was about 500 years before Christ.
Hinduism: “One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.” Also before Christ.
Jainism: “Just as pain is not agreeable to you, it is so with others. Knowing this principle of equality, treat other with respect and compassion. Suman Suttam , verse 150 This is just one of several sayings that can be interpreted as the GR in Jainism. About 500 to 1000 years before Christ.
Buddhism: “A state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
“Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” Udana-Varga 5:18 About 400 to450 BC
The golden rule has its roots in a wide range of world cultures, and is a standard which different cultures use to resolve conflicts; it was present in the philosophies of ancient Judaism, India, Greece, and China. The Golden Rule is an ethical code that states one has a right to just treatment, and a responsibility to ensure justice for others. It is also called the ethic of reciprocity. It is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights.
You write:
“You are not the first one that is trying to do this. Check in history and you’ll see they succeeded maybe for a while, but after that , they were no more.”
I don’t expect to convert everyone who reads my stuff, as I stated I just put the info out there…maybe it will make someone think and take that step to actually read about religion and see how phony it is. Just like the Christians proselytize to others, I am doing the same thing to Christians.
You write:
“I’ve heard this before, we’ve mest up this world and we want God to clean the mess up. What you are looking for is a genie in a bottle. If a worker in any country make such a mistake that the company loose a lot of money, he will be fired. The bank managers let thebanks all over the world loose a lot of many that I can’t even emagine the figure and the goverments rewarth them for it. They can keep their bonus and more. Even if God would raindown dollars on the poor people, the rich people would find a way to steal it.
God work by influensing people to do a work and those who are willing will do it. You are free to refuse, but you can’t stop it”
Stop and think about this…If God exists, he is the one who made everything on this earth, including evil, including Satan, including diseases. He, more than anybody, knows the human mind and what it is capable of. He (according to man) was the one to set up the melodrama of sin and redemption…blood sacrifice if you can believe it…how malevolent is that.
I find it astounding that people stick up and make excuses for a God that is so evil and malicious, and so unable to help or answer any prayers…ever.
I find it impossible to continue holding onto the beliefs CREATED by a tribe of nomadic goat herders, who believed the shovel was cutting edge technology, and human blood sacrifice was normal.
Something for you to consider; Europe is the most secular continent in the world, and in the US atheism is the fastest growing movement around. Also non-believers worldwide are the 3rd. largest group of people after Christianity and Islam. When you think back and realize that religion and its medieval laws and morality controlled much of the world just 60 or 70 years ago you can see where it is heading. If you can’t prove your god empirically…leave us alone, and although I will not live to see it, I predict that religion will indeed finally be put to rest in the near future. Finally humankind will rid itself of this anvil around our neck.
Peace
Hay thewordofme
You wrote:
The Golden Rule was a common principle in ancient Greek philosophy. Examples of the general concept include:
• “Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him.” – Pittacus
• “Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.” – Thales
• “What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them.” – Sextus the Pythagorean
• “Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others.” – Isocrates
• “What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others.” – Epictetus
• “It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing ‘neither to harm nor be harmed’
and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life.” – Epicurus
• “One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.” – Plato’s Socrates
Confucianism: “Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.” Confucius was about 500 years before Christ.
Hinduism: “One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.” Also before Christ.
Jainism: “Just as pain is not agreeable to you, it is so with others. Knowing this principle of equality, treat other with respect and compassion. Suman Suttam , verse 150 This is just one of several sayings that can be interpreted as the GR in Jainism. About 500 to 1000 years before Christ.
Buddhism: “A state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
“Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” Udana-Varga 5:18 About 400 to450 BC
According to the Bible:
Moses (Heb. מֹשֶׁה Mosje, Gr. Μωυσῆς Mōysēs of Μωσῆς Mōsēs, Lat. Moyses of Moses, Ar. وسى Moesa) 1481 BC. So before everything you mentioned.
And Moses is not the origen of the 10 commandments of the Bible.
According to the Bible :Abram 2038 BC was keeping Gods commandments. That’s way the 4th commandments say.: “Remember the sabbath”, so it couldn’t be the first time they heard it.
Check the Bible version According to you, “your” version was shorter, is it?
The Bible says simple:
You shall not murder.
Neither shall you commit adultery.
Neither shall you steal.
Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
My original post of the TC was:
Religion is a fraud?. Do you understand the ten commandments. It is the highest moral achievement possible. Take “Thou shalt not steal”. If you don’t steal because you could be caught you are still a thief and is condemned by the law. It goes further than what we see. If I want to be right with God, I have to be purer than any unbeliever or unfaithful who think that as long as they don’t touch it, it is OK.
And it would not even botter me if “your” GR was also find among 4 or 5 different civilizations. My emphasis was not on the words, but on the spirit of it. Real Christians are spiritual people and they know that words don’t say all of it.
You wrote:
Stop and think about this…If God exists, he is the one who made everything on this earth, including evil, including Satan, including diseases. He, more than anybody, knows the human mind and what it is capable of. He (according to man) was the one to set up the melodrama of sin and redemption…blood sacrifice if you can believe it…how malevolent is that.
No, no, no,.God created the heavens and the earth anda beatiful angel who choose to go angainst Gods law. He, God, dis not created puppets, but intelligent human beings that can make their own choses.
You wrote:
I find it astounding that people stick up and make excuses for a God that is so evil and malicious, and so unable to help or answer any prayers…ever.
God answers the prayers of those who believe.
You wrote:
Something for you to consider; Europe is the most secular continent in the world, and in the US atheism is the fastest growing movement around. When you think back and realize that religion and its medieval laws and morality controlled much of the world just 60 or 70 years ago you can see where it is heading. If you can’t prove your god empirically…leave us alone, and although I will not live to see it, I predict that religion will indeed finally be put to rest in the near future. Finally humankind will rid itself of this anvil around our neck.
People wil believe less and less,that is true. Materialism takes over and people leave their faith for money. That thus not mean that the Word of God has lost, even the Bible say, faith will decrease. But the Bible will be always there and faithful people too.
Lk 18,8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
1 Tim 6,10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Cheers
Hay thewordofme
You wrote:
The Golden Rule was a common principle in ancient Greek philosophy. Examples of the general concept include:
• “Do not to your neighbor what you would take ill from him.” – Pittacus
• “Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.” – Thales
• “What you wish your neighbors to be to you, such be also to them.” – Sextus the Pythagorean
• “Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others.” – Isocrates
• “What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others.” – Epictetus
• “It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing ‘neither to harm nor be harmed’
and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life.” – Epicurus
• “One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.” – Plato’s Socrates
Confucianism: “Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.” Confucius was about 500 years before Christ.
Hinduism: “One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.” Also before Christ.
Jainism: “Just as pain is not agreeable to you, it is so with others. Knowing this principle of equality, treat other with respect and compassion. Suman Suttam , verse 150 This is just one of several sayings that can be interpreted as the GR in Jainism. About 500 to 1000 years before Christ.
Buddhism: “A state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
“Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” Udana-Varga 5:18 About 400 to450 BC
According to the Bible:
Moses (Heb. מֹשֶׁה Mosje, Gr. Μωυσῆς Mōysēs of Μωσῆς Mōsēs, Lat. Moyses of Moses, Ar. وسى Moesa) 1481 BC. So before everything you mentioned.
And Moses is not the origen of the 10 commandments of the Bible.
According to the Bible :Abram 2038 BC was keeping Gods commandments. That’s way the 4th commandments say.: “Remember the sabbath”, so it couldn’t be the first time they heard it.
Check the Bible version According to you, “your” version was shorter, is it?
The Bible says simple:
You shall not murder.
Neither shall you commit adultery.
Neither shall you steal.
Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
My original post of the TC was:
Religion is a fraud?. Do you understand the ten commandments. It is the highest moral achievement possible. Take “Thou shalt not steal”. If you don’t steal because you could be caught you are still a thief and is condemned by the law. It goes further than what we see. If I want to be right with God, I have to be purer than any unbeliever or unfaithful who think that as long as they don’t touch it, it is OK.
And it would not even botter me if “your” GR was also find among 4 or 5 different civilizations. My emphasis was not on the words, but on the spirit of it. Real Christians are spiritual people and they know that words don’t say all of it.
You wrote:
Stop and think about this…If God exists, he is the one who made everything on this earth, including evil, including Satan, including diseases. He, more than anybody, knows the human mind and what it is capable of. He (according to man) was the one to set up the melodrama of sin and redemption…blood sacrifice if you can believe it…how malevolent is that.
No, no, no,.God created the heavens and the earth anda beatiful angel who choose to go angainst Gods law. He, God, dis not created puppets, but intelligent human beings that can make their own choses.
You wrote:
I find it astounding that people stick up and make excuses for a God that is so evil and malicious, and so unable to help or answer any prayers…ever.
God answers the prayers of those who believe.
You wrote:
Something for you to consider; Europe is the most secular continent in the world, and in the US atheism is the fastest growing movement around. When you think back and realize that religion and its medieval laws and morality controlled much of the world just 60 or 70 years ago you can see where it is heading. If you can’t prove your god empirically…leave us alone, and although I will not live to see it, I predict that religion will indeed finally be put to rest in the near future. Finally humankind will rid itself of this anvil around our neck.
People wil believe less and less,that is true. Materialism takes over and people leave their faith for money. That thus not mean that the Word of God has lost, even the Bible say, faith will decrease. But the Bible will be always there and faithful people too.
Lk 18,8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
1 Tim 6,10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Dear wordofme,
I won’t go into everything that I believe, but I will tell you that I am struggling with my faith, and even with my small problems, I can tell that you aren’t correct. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m really not. (as a young teenager, I’m finding that almost everything I say comes across as rude:^s) But I occasionally have my doubts about everything that you’ve talked about, and I’ve come to the conclusion that we are only humans, and we could never comprehend the things that God\Jesus can, has, and will do. The seven years of tribulation will come, and I pray that if they come in our lifetime, you will be saved by then. Please don’t be offended by anything that I’ve said. I’m not trying to offend. Please just consider that maybe God is real, and maybe He is the answer to all of your questions.
Blessings to you and your family:^)
Hi followeroftheGreatIAM, thank you for writing.
You are not being rude at all and it’s a great thing that you can go to and read conflicting information about your faith and write intelligently about your disagreement. I started being an atheist at age 13, and believe me that was a looong time ago.
Until about 12 or 13 years ago I didn’t have much information about my position…enter the internet and suddenly all the information, both good and bad, that people have gathered over 1700 years of Christianity is available on my laptop.
The information and evidence for humans being on this earth is totally overwhelming, there are literally thousands of science/university/museums websites that can lead you practically year by year from modern mans (Homo-sapiens) first appearance nearly 200,000 years ago to modern days. I’ll reiterate this…the evidence is totally overwhelming. Anybody who looks at it and denies it is a fool of the first order.
Adam and Eve is a myth, pure and simple. There are two large DNA studies that have recently wrapped up and they both traced human ancestry to Africa and 100,000 to 200,000 years ago. This is the same science that is used to put criminals in prison, in other words, it is totally accepted by governments and all sciences as reliable and true. A earth history of only 6,000 years or so is ridiculous, and again the evidence against this is overwhelming.
If you continue your journey of science exploration you will find many other interesting facts that will contradict your up-to-now-education. For example there was never a world –wide flood (c2400+- BC) that wiped out all humans and animals except the ones on “Noah’s ark.” There is NO geological or archaeological evidence for such a story.
200 years or so after the supposed flood God was supposed to have scrambled our earthly language at the Tower of Babel…only trouble with this story is that at the supposed time (c2000+- BC) of this little myth there were many millions of people (much evidence for this) spread EVERYWHERE on earth. I really doubt if they were just grunting at each other.
There are archaeologists in Israel who are saying that the Biblical story of the Exodus is a lie and they have evidence to back it up. Hundreds of archaeologists have been looking for evidence of a million Hebrews wandering for 40 years in the Sinai desert and they haven’t found one thing. And Joshua’s story of the walls of Jericho is false…the walls were already down 300 years before he got there. Same with the town of Ai, except those walls were down 1000 years before.
If you do some deep research into the Bible you will find that most of the books were not written by the listed authors, the Gospels are second and third hand accounts, and there are literally hundreds of irreconcilable differences in the scripture.
God MAY be real but he/she/it is not the God you have been duped into believing. You’re young, investigate and question what you have learned. If you want to dedicate your life to something, make sure it is worthy of the sacrifice. You only get one time around on this earth and there is most likely NOT an afterlife.
regards,
twom
This is a blog entry that keeps on giving. You write, “I won’t go into everything that I believe, but I will tell you that I am struggling with my faith….” [followeroftheGreatIAM]
Many have posted here since my original post, but I haven’t, until now, been moved to respond to something posted.
If you’d like, read my original post here. My advice, and exhortation: Don’t allow your “crisis of faith” stop you from searching. There’s nothing hidden that shall not be revealed, but persistence is required.
My life has been so extraordinary that having faith in God is redundant.
Faith is no longer required for me to believe. My understanding has been crystallized by a lifetime of experience exploring what many would call the spirit world, and a communication with what some have call the “God self.” You can reach that level of understanding as well, but you’ll have to set aside all doubt, and pursue it as though your life depended on it.
Keep asking, then, and keep seeking. The answer is always there, and what you hope to find is in plain sight. The only thing that’s preventing a hearing and a finding is you.
You, and only you, are standing in the way of you–and in your finding the answers you seek.
Dear The First Domino,
I hadn’t read your original post. I must say that after reading it, I felt a little better about what I believe. You seem to be very steadfast in your faith. That is so cool! I am working towards that myself. After I posted last night, a few things happened to me that kind of showed me how amazing God is.
TWOM, you seem to believe in several different theories, evolution being one of them. (at least that’s what I’ve picked up from your posts) I was on a web site the other day, and there was a debate going on there: Christianity vs. Evolution
I read there that Charles Darwin later renounced the theory of evolution, because there were too many gaps. I also read from an atheist: “Evolution has more holes than swiss cheese.” Wow. If that’s an evolutionist (as I call them), and that person can see that, why do they still believe in it? Maybe someone veiwing this post can answer this question.
Blessings to you and yours:^)
“You seem to be very steadfast in your faith. That is so cool!” followerofthGreatIAM
Thank you. As most people use the word, “faith,” yes, I’m “steadfast.” But seek not to believe, but to know. Incontrovertible proof is available, but, as is so often the case, it won’t serve to convince another of what you’ll come to know through personal experience.
This is what I know: You have lived many lives, and, if you so choose, will live many more. This is not your first time around, and, in all likelihood, it won’t be your last.
Hello followeroftheGreatIAM,
You write:
“…I was on a web site the other day, and there was a debate going on there: Christianity vs. Evolution
I read there that Charles Darwin later renounced the theory of evolution, because there were too many gaps. I also read from an atheist: “Evolution has more holes than swiss cheese.” Wow. If that’s an evolutionist (as I call them), and that person can see that, why do they still believe in it? Maybe someone veiwing this post can answer this question.
Blessings to you and yours:^”
You need to do some more research “follower”, Darwin did not renounce the theory of evolution, that is crap that is spread by creationist liars. And no, evolution theory is not full of holes. Sounds like you are under the spell of religious liars so I’ll say goodbye to you…have a great life if you can.
Hi The First Domino, I hope you are well.
You write:
“This is what I know: You have lived many lives, and, if you so choose, will live many more. This is not your first time around, and, in all likelihood, it won’t be your last.”
Sure doesn’t sound like Christianity to me; are you a Buddhist?
twom,
I honestly did not mean to offend. I’m sorry if my beliefs are offensive to you. But I do agree with you here:
Hi The First Domino, I hope you are well.
You write:
“This is what I know: You have lived many lives, and, if you so choose, will live many more. This is not your first time around, and, in all likelihood, it won’t be your last.”
Sure doesn’t sound like Christianity to me; are you a Buddhist?
I was confused by this this morning, and actually thought the same thing that you posted.
I hope that maybe we can agree to disagree…no hard feelings=]
Blessings to you and your kin:^)
Hi “follower”, how are you?
You did not offend me at all. I read your reply as a sign that you were not into discussion of differences, but that you were absolutely already convinced of your position on Christianity and debate was useless.
Was I right?
Peace
twom
To TWOM and followeroftheGreatIAM: I’m primarily a Christian, in that I’m a student of the Christ. But I’m also a student of all Holy writ, and have not restricted myself to any one teaching.
Some of my knowledge come not from books, but from the still, small, voice within.
I have lived many lives, and have knowledge of many of them. I rarely speak of, or impart, knowledge that I have not, in some fashion, substantiated by virtue of my own experiences.
My evidence is anecdotal, to be sure, but things concerning the Spirit often are, since they don’t originate on this plane of experience, but are merely manifested here.
I am well, and pray that Life holds you both in the hollow of its hand, with the warmth of Love, and the strength of Truth.
Hi The First Domino, thanks for writing.
You write:
“I am well, and pray that Life holds you both in the hollow of its hand, with the warmth of Love, and the strength of Truth.
I wish you the same, but I gotta tell you I don’t believe in re-incarnation or any of the supernatural/magical stuff you seem to espouse.
I have yet to see anything at all that was even close to being magic…ever.
I posit there is NO magic or supernatural in this world and there never has been.
Peace,
twom
Hay, wordofme,
I was just klicking around and find some interesting stuff. I will not voice my ideas again but voice what some scientist have to say. So those who read this blog with get the whole story, not only of a evolutionist but also of a creationist.:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v16/i4/eye.asp
First published:
Creation ex nihilo 16(4):10–13
September 1994
by Tom Wagner
Charles Darwin himself realized that it seemed incredible that evolutionary processes had to explain human vision. He said:
‘To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.’1
Yet, later on in the same chapter of his book, he explained how he believed it evolved anyway and that the ‘absurdity’ was illusory. Had Darwin had the knowledge about the eye and its associated systems that man has today (which is a great deal more than what it was in his time), he may have given up his naturalistic theory on the origin of living things.
……………..Had he been aware of the need for the tiny precision humming. Hopping eyeball motions that are going on all the time while we are awake, he may have abandoned his theory of evolution as foolish and impracticable speculation.
There is indeed abundant evidence of the Creator’s handiwork in all we see around us, and what we see wi
There is indeed abundant evidence of the Creator’s handiwork in all we see around us, and what we see with.
http://naturalselection.0catch.com/Files/computerevolution.html
Computers
And
The Theory of Evolution
Sean D. Pitman M.D.
© July 2003
…….I propose that the same problems hold true when it comes to Darwinian-style evolution in living things. Nature can only select based on what it sees. What nature sees is function – not the underlying language code or molecular symbols in the DNA itself. The statistical gaps between the recognized words in a living system’s dictionary are huge. The gaps are so huge that, to date, the best evolutionary evidence demonstrated in the lab describes changes separated by only one, two or possibly three amino acid “letter” changes.3 Without experiments or good statistical arguments to explain these problems, evolutionary theories are in serious trouble when they try to explain the existence of complex computer or biological functions that rise above the lowest rungs on the ladder of specified functional complexity.
http://naturalselection.0catch.com/Files/godofthegaps.html
…… At least you recognize the problem and seek a reasonable solution, such as the idea that such gaps do not exist. If such gaps really did not exist, then yes, evolution would not present a problem at all. However, it seems like you understand that if such gaps do exist that they would actually present a significant problem for your theory. You see that a gap crossing of low probability requires more time to be overcome and that this time increases with the size of the
neutral gap.
But, you believe in evolution so much, based on other evidences, that such gaps really must not actually be there. They might be there for certain targeted functions in certain narrow
situations, but certainly not for all functions. You propose that there are so many potentially beneficial functions out there that all
the various paths that might be taken are bound to come across at least a few of them in a reasonable amount of time, even if they be
quite complex… such as bacterial motility or camera-like eyesight………
Hi Jacq, thanks for writing.
So I’m guessing you are a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) by the sources you are using. The Answers in Genesis people are crackpots and known liars and deceivers.
If you believe the earth is only 6000 years old you are sadly mistaken and are being lied to.
Is man a Grown-Up LoveLess “germ or worm”? Do “frogs” turn into “Princes”? Really? Do tornados hitting junk-yards make 747’s? That’s the BaseLess “evolutionary” world in a NutShell in Violation of the Base Laws of Non-Contradiction & UltiMate Causality & The 2nd Law Of ThermoDynamics!! How old was Adam when GOD Created him? How old was the earth when GOD Created it? Where you there then? All True-Science Meets At The TOP, GOD! Dogs make dogs, cats make cats & snails make snails as it’s been during my life, the lives of my fathers & grandfathers & from the very Beginning “Witnessed Science”! Nothing has “evolved” into anOther species, Nothing whatsoever! It’s NOT the missing-link, it’s the missing-chain! God Have Mercy & Help More To Know YOur Creative ReCreative-Truth In-Christ I PRay…
Hey Jim, thanks for writing.
You need to get that keyboard checked, it seems to want to capitalize almost every word.
I see you have been surfin’ a lot of the creationists website. You’ve used up about a tenth of their really old and tired and wrong excuses in one paragraph.
You also seem to be having trouble writing coherent sentences. Maybe when you are sober you can try again. I love to talk to people like you.