Sunday Sermon Continued

Sunday Sermon Continued

This is a continuation of debate that started here: HERE

Hi Idugan, Welcome back.

Hey, if I could have done half as good as you are when I was in high school…that would have been a miracle.

Why would man make up a God who is so just, etc? Why would man set up laws for himself that he knew he could not always keep? The idea that man made God up doesn’t make sense. Man naturally HATES God. So why would he make Him up?”

I’m sorry…you consider the Christian God just? How about His unconscionable treatment of Job? Heres an apparently honorable man of God, and God just lets the Devil experiment on him. His family is killed off he looses his land, cattle, he is stricken with boils. All to settle a little wager between God and the Devil. Job isn’t notified of the wager, so he has no idea what is going on. Can you imagine the terror in his soul? Is that a just God?

Men have been making up gods from the beginning of time…thats what we do best. I doubt if there has ever been a society on this earth in all of history who hasn’t had a ‘God’ myth. I don’t think your statement about men naturally hating God is true at all, else why would we humans keep making them up? I don’t hate God, all the people I know do not hate God. I can’t remember ever meeting someone who hated God. Now…not believing…thats another matter.

    I’m no theologian of any kind. I have only truly been studying Scripture for about a year. I mean I’m only a senior in high school. So I won’t even pretend to have all the answers. I will only tell you what I believe, and I want to fully understand what you do and why. I just thought I should tell you that so you don’t feel like I’m attacking you because that is not my intention.”

Hey, who does have all the answers? Attack away. Just keep it on a civil level…no name calling or personal attacks. I respect you, and expect the same.

    What Moses did was not a ‘minor infraction’. He deliberately went against what his God told him to do. The same God who led them out of Egypt. His annoyance with the people should not have gotten to be so big that he would willingly defile God. That is why he was punished. (And that was not the only sin that Moses ever committed.) The reason why these ‘myths’ as you like to call them do not make sense to you is because you are making up excuses. I’m not saying that I understand all of Scripture and every single thing about every story–because I don’t–but i do have faith in God that what is Word says is what happened and that God had a perfectly just reason for doing anything He has ever done.”

If you knew the Jews perhaps you would understand the point about Moses a little better. If you were leading a couple of million kvetching Jews through the hot barren desert, you would truly understand the temperament of Moses. The Jews are not an easygoing people, they complain A LOT. Reread the story of his time in the desert and pay particular attention to the interaction between Moses and the ‘people’ I am not making up excuses about anything…I see valid points of debate. Unlike most students of Christianity, I study with an open mind…I don’t have a preconceived viewpoint and a need to conform to what I know people around me think of the matter.

    “I looked at that site that had the supposed contradictions in the Bible. I would just like to say that I read a lot of them and looked them up and I can try to show you that they are not contradictions–but I don’t think you would believe me so I’m not going to unless you ask me specifically to.”

Whatever you think. I have been looking at a number of them myself and I will continue, but most of them remain valid points of contention. I already have someone where I am, that is kind enough to spend time in discussion about them.

    “Mans purpose is to glorify God by using the attributes of Himself (love, morals, etc) that He gave us. “Sin”=when I don’t fulfill the purpose/will of God. For example the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20. You say the only ’sin’ you commit is when you ‘occasionally have a bad thought about someone’ or lusted after someone other than your wife. And you know what I have committed sins..lots of them. Let me ask you something though, have you ever told a lie? or lost control of your anger? I have, and that’s why I am so grateful for my salvation.”

Pretty egotistical on Gods part if His purpose in making us was to have us constantly ‘glorify’ Him. Do you really think God needs this constant worshiping and adulation and glorifying? Is this OUR purpose in life? Don’t you think a grown up God would understand that we can love Him without all this drippy glorifying and constant wondering if we are sinning ALL the time?

    “you said: “My point in this paragraph, is that people will believe almost anything. And they would rather follow than lead, or buck the establishment. Early Christians and Muslims tapped into that, and our present day leaders, both secular and religious, do the same.”

    Don’t you think that you are also a ‘follower’ in your thoughts? I mean you’re not the first one to question the authenticity of the Bible and God.”

I am a follower, as I believe we all are. But in matters of the intellect, I follow where my thoughts lead me. I am not scared that if I get off the beaten track I’ll be cast in hell. The only reason that me and others question the authenticity of any religion, is because they are all open to criticism. We see silliness, made up drama, made up stories, allegory, plain old deception and greed, and other thing that often make no sense as described by followers

    ““Didn’t Jesus say that his disciples would live to see him return, and he would establish a new Jewish ‘ Kingdom of God’ on earth?” and “Even Jesus was wrong in his prediction.”

    If you can show me where Jesus said that then fine. But I could not find it in Scripture. When the disciples asked when he would restore the kingdom Jesus replied that it was not for them to know the time or season (see Acts 1 :6-11 for the Ascension).”

Mathew 24:30-34 He was expecting a Jewish Kingdom of God, because he was Jewish, He was a rabbi, and great believer in the Jewish faith. The Christian faith as we know it today did not really start to evolve until a couple hundred years after the death of Jesus. Well, Paul was preparing the stage.

“The Kingdom of God is referred to frequently in the Tanakh (see 1 Chronicles 1 Chronicles 29:10-12 and Daniel 4:3 for example). It is tied to Jewish understanding that God will intervene to restore the nation of Israel, and return to rule over them. The Kingdom of God was expressly promised to the patriarch and prophet, King David, because he was a man “after God’s own heart” (1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22); and God made the Davidic Covenant with King David, promising him that he would “never lack a man to sit upon His throne, forever” (1 Kings 9:5). From Wikipedia” That prophecy never made it-Bill

    “Going back to the sin thing…When we sin we defile God’s creation. If we saw sin how God sees it we would shudder. (Zech 11:8; Ez. 20:43; 2 Cor 7:1). When we sin we rebel against God. A true ‘rebellion’ is when people try to assasinate those in charge and that’s why man did in Genesis 3:5–man wanted to be rid of God and to be like Him. When we sin we show ingratitude. God gives us everything (Life, love, friends, etc) and yet we sin. We rebel against God and yet we expect Him to keep blessing us. [These are some notes I took on a sermon about sin. It was the third in the series and it applies to people who believe it but I thought I would share it anyway.]”

Again with the sin thing. How old are you? Just live your life..and treat other people as you would like to be treated. Stay away from drugs, and when you’re old enough, treat alcohol with respect. If you find a woman you love, love her with all your heart, never cheat on her, and treat her with total respect. Follow these concepts and you really won’t have much to worry about. You keep worrying about sin so much and it will distort your brain…maybe make it explode. 🙂

Have a great life. I envy you your youth and promise.

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A New Sunday Sermon…Kind of

A new Sunday Sermon…Kind of

Hi Idugan,

To first readers…this is a reply to a reply that is under the heading: Did Jesus Exist? Here

Wow, where to begin. First, let me thank you for taking so much time to correspond with me. Thank You.

I am using the Bible and references to God, Jesus, Scriptures, etc., because we are ‘talking’ about them, and you are familiar with the myths

To clarify part of this; I do not believe that the Bible and the depictions of God, et al., are anything more than mans interpretations, campfire myths, etc., of his beginnings. I think they had a kind of relevance in the early times of mans intellectual childhood. There were no words at first to describe his thoughts or feelings. There was no explanations of what he saw. With no concept of science and being unsophisticated in thought and preoccupied with not starving to death, he made up stories to describe what lay before him. Civilizations across the face of the earth all did the same; a lot of them were made up before the bible stories were written down, and some of them were written down before Moses, and others, wrote the Pentateuch.

For a God to be sorry for his creation speaks volumes about the image of this spirit creature. He made a ‘broken species’, feels sorry because they do not live up to ‘expectations’, and then murders millions of them, in an especially painful way, and then feels remorse. He did it to wipe out the sinfulness of His prior creation, and let a new, sinless mankind take over the earth. How well did that work out, I ask you? Do you not think a real God would realize the futility of this measure? Does this story (which has no support in science and actual geological history of the earth) not sound like a child’s tale? This was/is a 4,000-4500 year old morality tale.

God did not let Moses into the promised land for a minor infraction; after he had spent a lifetime following God and doing His will. God allowed Jesus to be descended from a murderer and adulterer. And although He has said that the son does inherits the sins of the father, He also said that the son does not inherit the sins of the father, I don’t know what to believe. Do you not see the craziness of this, the inconsistencies of these stories? As a race, we humans have grown up; the old fairy tales do not relate anymore-they might if they made more sense…were not so unbelievable and childish.

We are holding on to old concepts and beliefs well past their ‘sell by date’. You want to worship a God? Do so. Just don’t make the worship/initiation such a silly thing. How about: God, you made me, I acknowledge that, forgive me for my weaknesses and sins, I’ll try to do better. No need to go through the morality plays over and over and over again, they stick in the mind pretty quickly. And Christians need to stop proselytizing. Its very irritating for those of another faith. Everyone in the world has heard the story by now. Your eagerness and boldness in pointing out the ‘mistakes’ of other belief systems and cultures is just annoying and wrong.

Christians spend so much time and energy arguing about the nature of God and Jesus and invent such wild imagery of the proper way to worship and tithe, etc., that they end up killing each other about differences that really don’t exist in the real world.

Define ‘sin’ for me if you would Idugan.

The only thing I do to ‘sin’, is occasionally have a bad thought about someone. I have sometimes committed adultery in my mind, like Jimmy Carter, so I’m in good company. But, the older I get the less I find it happening.;-) I love my family and friends and try to be charitable to all I see and meet.

I don’t believe in the religions as they are now promoted. The theology is just plain crazy in my humble estimation. So consequently, I do not ‘worship’ that great spirit in the sky-and I don’t think He needs the stuff that Christianity pushes on helpless humans.

I think that evangelical, fundamentalists, are just plain brainwashed. They cannot seem to break out of a mold that was laid down hundreds of years ago, and worse, they don’t think they need to. “Gimme that ol’ time religion.” 🙂

To read and actually listen to the words of the Bible, God is VERY inconsistent. You might go: Here and see for yourself. They quote from real Bibles, so you will be reading actual real Scriptures. Easily checkable at Bible Gateway.

Paul established his ‘bonafides’ to his (Jesus’) followers by saying Jesus spoke to him in a beam of light. Then he proceeded to steer the flock away from an apocalyptic leaning. Didn’t Jesus say that his disciples would live to see him return, and he would establish a new Jewish ‘ Kingdom of God’ on earth?

People are lying to you when they tell you that Scriptures have not been altered. I don’t trust Paul..or Eusebius…..or Constantine for that matter.

You know what I consider interesting? That Islam, which was established around 250-300 years after Christianity, now has over 1,200,000,000 followers and is permanently ensconced over the whole world. And growing at a faster clip than Christianity. The Muslims have much higher fertility rates…in some cases twice as much…more little Muslims running around than little Christians. Oh yea…Mohammad loved little girls (and I do mean loved). My point in this paragraph, is that people will believe almost anything. And they would rather follow than lead, or buck the establishment. Early Christians and Muslims tapped into that, and our present day leaders, both secular and religious, do the same. Don’t rock the boat, and don’t ask too many questions

A lot of scholars think that John of Patmos was writing about Rome. He was clearly delusional. Ministers have been predicting the ‘End of the World’, based on bogus interpretations of Revelations for 2,000 years now. Even Jesus was wrong in his prediction. I don’t think the Apostles died for what they knew to be a lie, they died for a misguided belief. People have martyred themselves for less.

Regarding this line: “until you truly believe the Word of God and trust in Jesus for your salvation you cannot know ‘truth’.”

I would believe, if I truly knew what the real ‘truthful word’ was..or is. 🙂

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Did God Give US Free Will?

Do we REALLY have free will?

Some of the best known Christians in history have taught there is no free will, including St. Augustine , Martin Luther, and John Calvin. The Christian Bible states in many places that God creates our future and decides our fates. It constantly denies that we have free will. If God knows exactly what will happen, (Being omnipotent and omniscient of course) the status of choices as free, is questionable.

“Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.” Ephesians 1:4-6 NIV

“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:4-10 NIV

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” Romans 8:29-30 NIV

“Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad – in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls – she was told “The older will serve the younger”. Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” Romans 9:10-15 NIV

“It does not therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth.” [Exodus 9:16] Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” ” Romans 9:16-19

“[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, ” 2 Timothy 1:9 NASB

All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus].” Revelations 13:8 NIV Pretty much the whole thing

Schopenhauer talks of free will and moral responsibility thusly:

“Everyone believes himself a priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life. … But a posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns….”

So what is one to make of all this? Christians, today tell me that I have free will and it is by my own choice whether I go to heaven or hell. But, then you read Revelations 13:8 (above). Of course this is just one of MANY inconsistencies to be found in that confounding book; the Bible.

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Was Jesus a Christian?

Was Jesus a Christian in his lifetime?

Very interesting book review in Canada’s Globe and Mail newspaper yesterday. Link Here

A new book: How Jesus Became Christian, by Canadian author Barry Wilson, 2008, Random House Canada, says: “Jesus was preaching as a Jew, a rabbi, and championed the Torah, prayed in synagogue and urged his followers to adhere strictly to Jewish law.”

Wilson says that Jesus did not want to abolish Jewish religion and life; he wanted to improve it. His followers began to think of him as a Messiah, and after his death his brother James and followers waited for him to return to create the “Kingdom of God”

After the death of James the Jesus Movement was in decline until Paul of Tarsus hijacked the cause. Paul did not know Jesus, but linked his writings, in an oblique way, to the long dead Messiah. Paul says that he received the Gospel not from man, but by “the revelation of Jesus Christ” on the road to Damascus, thru a “beam of light.” I think I saw one of Paul’s relatives on Hollywood Blvd. one day in the 1960’s.

Wilson terms “Paulinity” – “a Hellenized religion about a Gentile Christ, a cosmic redeemer” – rather than the Jewish-inspired religion of Jesus, which was embraced by the Gentiles of the Roman world in the period from the second to the fourth centuries.”

Paul is second most prolific writer in the New Testament. Authorship of 13 or 14 letters, or Pauline Epistles have been credited to him, some of which he actually wrote himself. His influence on Christianity and the New Testament has been highly underrated. Some think he invented Christianity, as we know it today.

Paul himself is very unwilling to talk about the character of his conversion, though in Galatians he uses it as authority for his independence from the apostles: Here

Paul removes his theology from Jesus’ apostles; he writes his own.

In the academic field (other than evangelicals, who insist that the bible was always the same, inerrant in all ways), there is not much doubt that the Christian writings have been changed significantly since the earliest days.

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God and Censorship

“we know god is real at wordpress”

The above is a search term that was used to get to my blog today (3.16.08) If you are a WordPress blogger you know that you have a daily stat page that will list all search terms that led to you if you have blogged about the subject.

Well I have written about God. The blog title is: “Is God Even real?” It was published online on 2.25.08 and it was, of course, here on WordPress

This kind of baffled me, but I didn’t think it was TOO sinister.

Later in the day I am searching Google and one page of search results for my site had that particular blog post listed as possibly harmful to your computer if you logged on to it. WTF… Then I searched all listings for my website on Google…The only one I could find that had that “harmful” message, was: “Is God even Real.”

OK…This is damn scary now. Is God coming to get me??? Did he enter the body of some WordPress employee and cause them to send a warning to me???

I take the address of the referring website and try to go to it, and I get no results. After cogitating on this a few seconds I separate the dot com out of the address and viola It’s a site where you can log on incognito/hide your URL. I go back and check some of the other entries, and guess what…some of them are also about religious subjects. They all have that same “hide your URL” website listed as the originator.

I will confess that I am not that much of a computer “nerd” :-} so I don’t know the real ins and outs of what’s going on here…But I am suspecting GOD..or..SOMEONE, is out to get this web-page off the web, or at least stop people from reading it. :-} Wow, is it really possible someone would want to censor stuff??

Do you suppose someone at WordPress is behind this? I’m going to ask.

For latest post go: Here

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Sunday Sermon for Non-Believers

Sunday sermon

Man was essentially spread over the whole earth by 10,000BC. The evidence is totally overwhelming and incontrovertible. The only way fundamentalists, evangelicals, creationists, and intelligent design proponents get around this fact is by denial. The “proofs” they forward to support their beliefs are not real, and they fall apart when people who are schooled in the subject review the “proofs” If they were to accept real science the made-up world view they have collapses and they know it.

All the mumbo-jumbo that the world theologists try to smother us in, is just that, mumbo-jumbo. It’s witchcraft, or Voodoo of the highest order; it’s looking at entrails to divine the future…and the past.

The world history that is real is laid out by science…and involves time spans that are hard to grasp, and a beginning of life that involves no gods. We and our world are the stuff of stars. Look out at the universe sometime, use a telescope; you’ll see nothing but stars and gas. The chemistry of life is the stuff all around us, and we keep trying to find the recipe.

There is no serious scientist on earth who believes the earth and humanity, and by extension the whole Universe, has only been around only some 6,000 years. Our world is Ooold. In the real world this is known with a certainty that gets stronger every year. The evidence does not go up and down, it goes up only. It is known with a certainty that transcends any religious thought or exegesis.

The well-known religious thinkers and writers down through time were furthering the cause for their own careers. They were writing and espousing feelings and superstitions that were simply nonexistent. There never was any tangible “gods” All they had was writing, not evidence that could be examined. All they were doing was duping the population for their own furtherance…that’s all most ministers, priests, and rabbis are doing now…they are supporting superstition or magic and involving you.

It has been true down through time that religion has to fight harder and harder to get educated people to believe. Not just the Christian God, but all others. Christianity keeps reinvented itself, trying to keep it’s relevance in a world that surpassed it several centuries ago. Religion tries it’s best to keep woman/man in their clutches. Read your history, religion kills to keep you on the straight and narrow path…not now…but not long ago. (actually after some thought I have to say it is still killing today…think Muslim. They worship the same god…they say.)

Religion would have you believe that a theocratic form of government is needed to save our society, our country. It’s been tried before and didn’t work very well. Just think about the consequences of such a thing. Would you want the religious police stalking around looking into your life? How many out there are truly righteous and “sin” free at all points in their life? If you think praying to Jesus after every sin works, then you are truly helpless. Do you want to look over your shoulder to see if anyone is watching before you stare at that beautiful young woman passing by you? Do you want someone else deciding what you can read, or filtering what news you can see? Do you really want Pontiffs or deacons deciding what your child learns in school?

If I try to envision a country world ruled by religion, I think about Muslims, third world deterioration, a world that is gray and truly with out soul. Where men kill women over “honor”. Where children are taught not to use their inventiveness and imagination. Where you are careful about what you say, you cannot express a curiosity about the world because it is already explained in terms that you are not allowed to question. I think I would commit suicide.

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Do you Believe in a Trinity?

It seems all of the evidence for a trinity in the Bible…is man’s interpretation, as the Bible does not state this in certain, terms. It is not established beyond doubt or question. Well some sect’s believe they have, but they haven’t.

However, in the matter of the Son/Jesus being a separate entity of the God/Father, the Bible is perfectly clear. It minces no words and flat-out says, many times, that Jesus is the SON of God. Occam’s razor needs to be applied here. Stop going through all of the theological nonsense and read the words that ARE there, not what someone is interpolating = “Insert words into texts, often falsifying it thereby”

Mat 3:17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, you are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

1 John 4:9 Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.

John 5:18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

John 5:19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel.

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son

John 5:23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:25 Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.

John 5:26 for just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 8:58 “…. (Jesus) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” Jesus meant he existed in heaven with the Father before Abraham was born.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1 These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

When Christians pray, they pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, by the grace of the son, while acknowledging that the Father is God.

Everyday Christian prayer evidences that there is no Trinity.

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