Did God Give US Free Will?
March 28, 2008 128 Comments
Do we REALLY have free will?
Some of the best known Christians in history have taught there is no free will, including St. Augustine , Martin Luther, and John Calvin. The Christian Bible states in many places that God creates our future and decides our fates. It constantly denies that we have free will. If God knows exactly what will happen, (Being omnipotent and omniscient of course) the status of choices as free, is questionable.
“Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.” Ephesians 1:4-6 NIV
“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:4-10 NIV
“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” Romans 8:29-30 NIV
“Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad – in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls – she was told “The older will serve the younger”. Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”. What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” Romans 9:10-15 NIV
“It does not therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth.” [Exodus 9:16] Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” ” Romans 9:16-19
“[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, ” 2 Timothy 1:9 NASB
“All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus].” Revelations 13:8 NIV Pretty much the whole thing
Schopenhauer talks of free will and moral responsibility thusly:
“Everyone believes himself a priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life. … But a posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns….”
So what is one to make of all this? Christians, today tell me that I have free will and it is by my own choice whether I go to heaven or hell. But, then you read Revelations 13:8 (above). Of course this is just one of MANY inconsistencies to be found in that confounding book; the Bible.
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I was getting in a bit of a discussion with some folks at the blog Stupid Church People where this very topics was getting bandied about. Personally, I think the notion that God wrote the entire script in advance is nonsense. Can you imagine a more utter waste of time than to create a universe where everyone is your puppet? People do have free will, which is why we are disobedient. Now, I cannot respond very well at the moment to the passages you cite above because my 2 year old is all over me and I need to do some research. But I did talk a little bit about the predestination vs. free will matter in my own blog here:
I’ll be back as soon as I can with some insight on the other stuff.
Hi Deacon Blue, thanks for writing.
No, actually I think Paul probably wrote the script and attributed it to Jesus or God.
He (God) said many things in the Bible (not that I think it is a reliable source on ‘The Word of God’) that would have you believe it was all preset and that we had no true free will.
Of course we are the puppets of God; He can do with us what He wants…and He often has…hundreds of examples in the Bible.
I can truly appreciate the little one crawling all over you. Had five myself, and now have 6 grandchildren. Newest one is about 4 months and I can’t wait till she starts crawling. 🙂
Regarding your blog about free will/predestination. I know a Christian, who I count as a friend, and would never disrespect, once say to me: “God knows everyone on earth and watches everything that goes on and has permanent memory of us”. I perhaps paraphrased some, but that is the true gist of it. Seeing as how the earth has been home to maybe 80 or more billion souls over its time span—4.5 billion years 🙂 I find that mind-boggling.
respectfully thewordofme.
Hey, get saved and THEN decide on your theology on the smaller details. Jesus died for your sins to those who repent and believe. Whether you make that choice of God makes it for you doesn’t matter as much as it being made.
Easier said than done. You can’t make yourself to believe in something. Those who say they can are not being truthful. I cannot make you believe the sky is green. You know that isn’t true. How can you make someone believe that god is real? Take it in faith? GUESS that out of the 8700+ gods of recorded human history that you got it right? No thank you.
Hi again Justin, Thank you.
Hey, the small details really bother me…if your’re not right on the small details…maybe the larger ones are suspect. 🙂
My point is simply to not get saved because you think you can’t get saved without God making you make the decision. Just make the decision and then decide how you made it.
Huh?
The hardest thing about being a christian is giving up self. If we created ourselves we should get upset and possibly angry that we can’t really do what we want when we want.
We forgot we didn’t design ourselves and we must submitt to His Will for our lives. No can argue I don’t think, that the Favor of God is Fair. But if we allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to us certain things over a course of time He will reveal it. But this can’t happen because we are too quizative in our minds “How come I can’t do what I want to do, When I want to do it, and Go where I want to go. Yes we all have free will but there are boundaries.
Ha ha. Free will with boundaries! You’re talking about square circles here. Why don’t you go read a dictionary first and then try to define certain things. Free = no boundaries. But, as long as you believe that the end of some will be in a place of torment called hell, you will have many flaws in your theories.
[1:1]
]4:45[ But Allah has full knowledge of your enemies: Allah is enough for a Protector and Allah is enough for a Helper.
]8:46[ And obey Allah and His Messenger; and fall into no disputes, lest you lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering; for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.
[8:47-75].[Surah 8]
]8:8[ That He might justify Truth and prove Falsehood false, distasteful though it be to those in guilt.
Ephesians 6:10-11 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the LORD and the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Ephesians 6 and all Ephesians)
Ephesians 5:14 There He says: ‘Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Chris† will give you light.”
Al-Fatiha.ameen
Lord’s Prayer.amen
Leviticus
Ezekiel
Luke
Urantia Book
Islam
An-Nas
We thank God for the free-will to study His Word… insha’Allah.
We thank God for the many blessings that He gives to the righteous… [Those hoo hear the Word of God and keep it.]
Thank you for this post. May Allah (swt) bless us and guide us all. Alleluia Alleluia Ameen.
SubhanAllahi wa biHamdihi!
Gloria in Excelsis Deo!
Kyrie Eleison.
Hi Sean, thanks for writing.
I’m not sure how to respond to your message to me.
If 2 + 2 = 4, it can not be 5 or 3.
Meaning, there is only ONE correct answer. The wrong answer/decision will lead to “diversion”, and until the correct aswer is achieved, the error(s) will lead to situations we perceive as chaotic. Can we prevent chaotic situations, errors, and undesirable outcomes ? Yes. But it takes a lot of practice. This is what life is about.
With time, if we pay very close attention to the language of God, we learn to listen and to understand, and to practice patience, so we make the right decision in any given circumstance. Yet, situations, which seem chaotic, will still happen. “Blessing in disguise” explains this phenomenon. The language of God is complex. Maybe mathematics explains it best. Maybe fractual mathematics gets as close as it can get (to the definition of God’s language).
God knows how much snow will fall on which mountain, and when, long before it snows on that mountain. God also knows if and when you will be at that mountain, and for what reason. You will be at that mountain at the time scripted for you. You will have no influence on the amount of snow that will fall on the mountain. You will not know the actual purpose of your being there at that time. However, you will be expected to do what you are meant to do there. By 2 + 2 = 4, there will be only one correct answer. When you are well versed with God’s language, you will do the right thing.
As per free will:
Everything IS scripted. Not one heart beats one more beat than scripted/planned. Our free will is here to understand God’s language and script, and to adhere to it selflessly. By free will, we are entitled to mistakes, and until we find the correct answer, we remain in stagnation. God is patient.
Are we God’s “puppets” ? Not if we understand that 2 + 2 = 4. Why do the wrong thing, or chose the wrong way, if the correct way is best for us ? Puppets have no brains or a soul. We do.
Conclusion:
Finding the path to God’s script for oneself is the key. Every person, every family, every community, every nation, every contient, every world, has a scripted existance. Diversion by free will, does not change the script. 2 + 2 will always equals 4. If we choose 5, we will go an extra mile needlessly, only to realize in the end, that it is 4.
How do we prevent needless miles ? By understanding God’s language and asking for guidance. After going many needless miles, we get tired enough to humbly accept that our free will is here to go with God’s script, for optimal outcome.
If our lives are scripted, I can go on a murderous rampage today because IT’S GOD’S WILL. That argument doesn’t hold water.
Hi nilufer, thanks for writing.
You write:
“God knows how much snow will fall on which mountain, and when, long before it snows on that mountain. God also knows if and when you will be at that mountain, and for what reason. You will be at that mountain at the time scripted for you.”
This is predestination and eliminates free-will. The Bible preaches that man has free-will, but it also says we have no free-will. What’s a person to believe?
You also write:
“With time, if we pay very close attention to the language of God”
Sorry I don’t speak Hebrew. But the real problem here is that there is no God to listen to. He obviously doesn’t listen to us because there have never been any prayers answered. Do you really think you have heard the word of God?
You write:
“Finding the path to God’s script for oneself is the key. Every person, every family, every community, every nation, every contient, every world, has a scripted existance. Diversion by free will, does not change the script. 2 + 2 will always equals 4. If we choose 5, we will go an extra mile needlessly, only to realize in the end, that it is 4.
How do we prevent needless miles ? By understanding God’s language and asking for guidance. After going many needless miles, we get tired enough to humbly accept that our free will is here to go with God’s script, for optimal outcome.”
Again this is nothing more than predestination or determination…’God’ has mapped out everything for us…why do we even bother?
Free yourself from this defeatist philosophy…Hallelujah. 🙂
About free will, and my explanations:
We DO have the free will to make mistakes. As said, there is only one correct choice however. That is why I used the sample 2 + 2 = 4. You can choose 5 and err. You have the right and free will to err. When we choose the right choice, things unfold the way they are supposed to (as planned by God).
You say “why bother” ? We have no choice but to bother – it’s also scripted :). Because not bothering is against the script. Now you’ll ask if we are slaves. I think rather that we are students.
Why we were created, is a question that I’m working on currently. So far I figured out that God exists, and everything is scripted. Took me 55 years to get this far.
My interpretation of God’s language is that it is like a giant mathematical equation, with auto-mechanically functioning laws, But it is not a “heart-less” mechnism. It is capable of communicating with a child, in a child’s limited language, while it orchestrates the activities etc in the universe (which we are still trying to decipher). The micro- and macro capabilities of God are too abstract for us to fully grasp, I think. Ants will never understand how a car works.
Communication with God is possible, I believe, by my own experience. I didn’t choose to communicate with God. I wasn’t even aware of God when it happened. I was a child at that time. It came in the form of a dream. Took me 55 years to understand the dream fully. Now, I am discovering more information embedded in that dream, however I’m still very puzzled about some elements.
What puzzles me most is the question of “WHY” ? If “good people” go to heaven, provided they understand the script and live by it, does that mean that God will have company in heaven ? Would God need company ? Past discussion on free will, begins the question of WHY .
So, that is the area which I’m still “investigating”.
I don’t speak Hebrew either. Besides, there are about 200 languages on this earth, and God speaks all of them. God speaks in symbols rather maybe.
Prayers: You concluded that prayers are not answered. Some other people claim their prayers have been answered. My prayers have been responded to, with mathematical precision.
Life is a prayer, whether you are aware of it or not.
Are you an atheist ?
If so, I respect that, but we may have hurdles in our communication. We have the free will not to believe. In fact, some of us are created as non-believers and will remain non-believers, by script. Entities known as “demons”, “satan”, etc, were created with a specific purpose, and their role is scripted as well. They are serving God as well, with perfection.
If you want to know if I’m a Christian, Jew, or Moslem, or Buddhist:
I’m all of them. I was exposed to Christianity first and practiced that in Switzerland, for several years. Then I was exposed to Islam, in Turkey, so I learned and practiced Islam. Then I found out that my parents and ancestors were actually Jews. Didn’t matter anymore. I then studied Buddhism. Now, I believe that the Bible, the Quran, as well as the books of Buddha contain words from God. The scriptures are written in a language that many people can’t understand easily perhaps. Takes often decades to understand. Understanding God requires going way beyond the scriptures. Besides, no books are needed for communication with God. Mohammed for instance, was illeterate. Understanding God is not limited to spoken and written language.
Thank you for your advice to free myself from “this defeatist philosophy”. I have chosen to stick with it, and to me it isn’t defeatist. The defeated will remain defeated though, by script.
“Fear no evil” is written in the Bible. Even “Satan” serves a purpose. Find out if your role is to be and remain defeated.
Hallelujah 🙂
So your god scripted my life to not believe in him and burn in the fires of Hell? What kind of animal do you worship!?
nilufer wrote:
>We DO have the free will to make mistakes<
Do we? Then why did god harden the heart of Pharaoh, who was about to let the Jewish people go free?
So we don’t have free will, according to the story of Pharaoh and Moses in the bible. But you say we do. Should I believe you, or the bible?
Select any passage in the bible you wish, there will be at least one that is contradictory. If the bible is contradictory, it isn’t completely true.
Everything in this universe makes much more sense, when thought through with honesty, when we realize there is no god. Then there is no need for contorted answers, no need to claim scriptures can’t be understood easily by “many people,” no need to refer to giant mathematical equations.
I’ll leave you with what you believe in. I have a different point of view, and a different experience. If you feel comfortable with your prespective, that is okay. God is an experience that one must make for him/herself.
Read the Quran, if you dislike the Bible.
Thanks.
>I’ll leave you with what you believe in.<
If you are referring to me, then I must inform you I don’t believe in a god, and so I put no more faith in the Quran than I do the Bible.
I note you make no attempt to answer my question: how can we have free will, as you asserted above, if god barges in to force his own will? How do you square contradictions in the bible – or the quran? I don’t imagine you can, so you have to fall back, without thinking it through, on your faith, rather than using your reason.
Greetings,
My dear friend, in your stand against “free-will”, how could you leave out Ephesians 1:11, “Who worketh all things after the counsel of his (OWN WILL) ?!
Free Will is rebellion against The Sovereignty Of God ! When Eve began to make her own decisions, she threw off God as her “Sovereign” ! So these replies you get, how could they sin, if God did not give them a “Free Will”, or how could they read the Bible, if God did not give them a “free will”, these people are in rebellion against God !
People don’t sin because they have a “free will”, they sin because they are “SLAVES” to sin !! “Free Will” is the (SIN NATURE) ! Since the fall of man, all men are now free will by nature ! It was Satan that talked Eve into making her own decisions ! That came from the Devil ! That’s what made him the Devil ! He wanted to rule and be God ! He wanted to make all the the decisions ! God did not give man a will just to do and live as he pleases ! Why else would Jesus tell us to pray, Not my will, but thy will be done ? Because our will, “Free Will”, is sin and rebellion against God !
I would suggest some of those “Freewillers” read a book by Martin Luther, called, “The Bondage Of The Will” !
Yours For Christ,
Harold Brown
haroldb45@yahoo.com
>It was Satan that talked Eve into making her own decisions !<
Mr. Brown, do you see the contradictory thought expressed in the above sentence? Of course you don’t. 😉 They brainwashed, such as yourself, will accept opposing concepts.
A prior correspondent couldn’t/wouldn’t answer a question concerning his assertion about the meaning of free will. (By the way, is he right, or are you correct about free will? Who should I believe?)
If we humans have free will, if we can rebel against your god, then why does god allow this rebellion in some humans, but not others? How can it be free if god gets to decide when we and when we can not exercise free will, er, rebellion again your god’s sovereignty?
I gave the example of Pharaoh a few posts above: he wished to let the Jewish people go free. And he did so because, like your devil did to Eve, so Moses sweet-talked Pharaoh into agreeing to do something he didn’t at first want to do – that is, he was ready to let the Jewish people go, but the Jewish god changed his mind.
So how is it that God let Eve listen to the devil, but wouldn’t let Pharaoh listen to Moses? IT would seem that free will, that is, the ability to rebel, is decided by your imaginary god, not we humans.
It comes down to this, Mr. Brown – you don’t make any sense. You contradict yourself and cannot see it. You have to come up with yet another twisted theory about the nature of free will, because at least on some level you understand the concept itself – the concept of free will – doesn’t make sense when you read about it in the bible.
Why doesn’t the bible state it as clearly as you do – when we decide what we want to do, we rebel against god? But then, thinking that through doesn’t make any sense, either. If it did, we would not, as per your suggestion, have to read a book by Martin Luther to explain the plain words of the bible to us.
In other words, according to you, the bible doesn’t make sense.
Hi Bill,
In Christian theology, God is described as not only omniscient but also omnipotent; a notion which some people, Christians and non-Christians alike, believe implies that not only has God always known what choices individuals will make tomorrow, but has actually determined those choices. That is, they believe, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination. Other branches, such as Methodists, believe that while God is omnipotent and knows the choices that individuals will make, he still gives individuals the power to ultimately choose (or reject) everything, regardless of any internal or external conditions relating to the choice. For example, when Jesus was nailed on the cross, the two criminals, one on each side, were about to die. Only one asked Jesus for forgiveness while the other, even at the end of his life with nothing else to lose, mocked Jesus. In the view of Methodists and others who believe in free will, this was a free and personal choice between everlasting death and everlasting life.
God Bless you,
Eduardo
>Only one asked Jesus for forgiveness while the other, even at the end of his life with nothing else to lose, mocked Jesus. In the view of Methodists and others who believe in free will, this was a free and personal choice between everlasting death and everlasting life.<
Interesting, Eduardo. But it doesn’t answer the question of how we can have free will if a god creates everything, including everything that WILL happen. Whether or not someone asked – or did not ask – to be saved, either way a god both knew and determined in advance what each would choose.
So while the bible might say humans have free will, there is no particular evidence, given the supposedly “true” nature of the bible, that this is so.
What about prayer? What if I pray that my suicidal brother stop considering killing himself, and he does stop trying to kill himself. Has a god that answers such a prayer interfered with my brother’s free will to choose what he wants (to kill himself)? Or what if I take drugs and I like taking drugs, and my brother prays that I stop taking them, and god grants my brother’s wish – has that god taken away my free will?
To “Dave”:
I see no contradictions in the Bible or the Quran. I read both of them.
I see deficiencies in your analytical thinking, which lacks the capability to process several thoughts at once. Translates into linear thinking, where complex and abstract reasonings are missed, as the brain is stuck in a linear path. This is what I am observing in your thought process. Explains why you are unable to understand that 2 + 2 is 4 = there is only ONE correct answer, as I stated before. Free will is subordinent to this fact. You can choose 5 , by free will, and err, until you realize that 4 is the correct answer. If you insist that it is 5, not 4, you will end up in situations (suicidal thoughts, drugs, etc) which will continue to challenge you on this fact. Prayers won’t help you when you insist that 2 + 2 = 5. Prayers will help you when you accept that 2 + 2 = 4. If you object to facts of nature and wish to create your own reality, drugs may indeed be more helpful than prayers.
Accusing me of lacking logic won’t help you in any way, unfortunately. Faith is not equivalent to being ignorant or brainwashed, as you have been accusing me and other participants on this web site. I have corresponded with you patiently, to see if you would catch a spark. You are unable to catch a spark, or to think coherently, or logically, or reasonably, as you are confined to repetitive questionings without progress, by your restricted knowledge on simple facts.
That is why you respond to every post with the same restricted and repetitive notion “you contradict yourself”, “the Bible contradicts itself…” etc. The contradictions are in your head only, where 2 +2 equals 5, and you want everybody to accept your twisted “logic”, or rather the lack of it. Interestingly, your web site’s title is “thewordofme”. I’m not a psychologist, and one doesn’t need to be one to sense the grandiosity behind such words.
I would even respect your grandiosity if you’d demonstrate some degree of intelligent discussion capabilities, perhaps by at least applying the dialectic approach, in which thesis, antithesis, and synthesis would bring more value to the discussion you wish to conduct. Repetitive and judgmental notions (“you contradict yourself, you are brainwashed, …”) are just that, encouraging the participants not to return to your web site anymore. If this is good enough, enjoy.
I have a prescription for you: Get a Quiji Board and ask for a demon to visit you. Follow the board instructions word by word. You need not to believe in God or Satan, or anything, to do this. As an atheist, you are perfect for this.
Make sure you do the call correctly, though. If you do it correctly, you will get the feedback you need. Once you meet a demon, you will have SOME experience beyond your limited, linear ponderings on “contradictions” and “brainwash”. Communicate with a demon. That will help you very much in the understanding of God. You need to start somewhere, dear “thewordofme”. Start at the level that you can relate to best. 🙂 Once you confere with a demon, you’ll have the FREE WILL to decide if you wish to continue to communicate with demons. You may like to hear what the demon would tell you. Post your experience here, after that. Then, we may propose to rename your nick name from “the word of me” to “the word of a demon”. Would be only fair towards us, for informed consent’s sake. I don’t fear any demon. It is scripted that Satan will be defeated, by Satan’s FREE WILL !
Anybody has the FREE WILL to be ignorant and/or evil.
As 2 + 2 = 4, voluntary ignorance and submission to evil will be processed accordingly.
After reading my post, get yourself quickly a Quiji Board please and don’t forget to execute what I prescribed to you.
I would just like to say that wether or not you agree with ‘wordofme’ it is UNACCEPTABLE to encourage someone to pursue interacting with demons, especially if you are a Christian, as you claim to be. We are all God’s creations and, the matter of free-will aside, trying to get a fellow human being to open themselves up for a demon is completely rediculous. We are supposed to try to be bringing people to God and to eternal life, not to the Devil and enternal damnation. Also, we are supposed to be loving and caring at all times, to Christians and non-believers alike. I know its frustrating when people don’t believe you, but you are undermining your own claims by ranting and throwing a temper tantrum like a baby. Please don’t get upset and me, I am JustConcerned.
Hello JustConcerned,
Thank you for your concern. Don’t be worried about any of this.
Quiji boards are harmless, they do not call up demons, as there is no such thing
nilufer – I’m not wordofme, I’m Dave – just a visitor here, like you. As you haven’t been able to figure that out, I’m not surprised at the rest of your “answer” to me.
So you don’t care to answer my specific question about Pharoah, Moses and your god? I’m not surprised at that, either. You aren’t, for whatever reason, capable of it.
Best of luck wrestling with your own demons.
Hi Dave,
Free will is a concept in traditional philosophy used to refer to the belief that human behavior is not absolutely determined by external causes, but is the result of choices made by an act of will by the agent. Such choices are themselves not determined by external causes, but are determined by the motives and intentions of the agent, which themselves are not absolutely determined by external causes.
Traditionally, those who deny the existence of free will look to fate, supernatural powers, or material causes as the determinants of human behavior. Free will advocates, or libertarians, as they are sometimes called, believe that while everything else in the universe may be the inevitable consequence of external forces, human behavior is unique and is determined by the agent, not by God or the stars or the laws of nature.
The traditional concept of free will enters the mainstream of Western Philosophy in metaphysical questions about human responsibility for moral behavior. Many modern debates about free will are often couched in terms of responsibility for moral and criminal behavior. In the Christian tradition, which has framed the issues surrounding free will, the belief hinges on a metaphysical belief in non-physical reality. The will is seen as a faculty of the soul or mind, which is understood as standing outside of the physical world and its governing laws. Hence, for many, a belief in materialism is taken to imply a denial of free will.
The modern view of determinism and free will does not see the two concepts as mutually exclusive. This view began to take shape with arguments such as those offered by Thomas Hobbes (Leviathan, XXI). God is the ultimate cause of every action, argued Hobbes, but as long as a person is not physically forced to do an act, the act is free. Hobbes couched the argument in terms of liberty vs. necessity, rather than free vs. externally determined will. The sequence of causes leading to a person being blown off a cliff by the wind would be said to have led to an event which was the necessary effect of a series of causes. A person jumping off the cliff would also have a series of causes which led up to it, but if the person was not chased off the cliff and jumped without any immediate material cause necessitating the jump, then the act is one of liberty.
Hobbes’ view shows progress for reconciling materialism, determinism and free will, but it is unsatisfactory. While it makes the case that materialism and determinism do not imply that humans have no metaphysical liberty, it does not address the issue of internal determining causes. It is unlikely a modern materialist would make the argument that regardless of a person’s neurochemical state, if the person is not pushed or chased off the cliff, but jumps, say, while under the delusion that she can fly, the act is one of liberty.
A modern view, which sees no contradiction between believing in free will and materialism, would be couched in neurological terms. The key issue stemming from the free will/determinism debate is the issue of responsibility for one’s actions. Responsibility, however, has at least two essential components: control and understanding. Even early Christian philosophers, such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, considered infants, young children and imbeciles, as lacking in control or understanding, not lacking in some metaphysical entity needed for free acts. It is an obvious absurdity to ascribe free will to infants, young children or the insane. Traditional libertarians held that only when a child had reached “the age of reason” did free will kick in. For those who never attained the capacity for adult rational thinking, free will never kicked in.
All our concepts of praise and blame, punishment and reward, depend upon our belief in human responsibility. A person who has an undeveloped or damaged brain or a neurochemical disorder is not responsible for her thoughts or actions if the condition causes an inability to understand or control them. Being able to control one’s behavior is not a sufficient condition for holding a person responsible for her actions. A mentally ill or retarded person or a child may be incapable of understanding the nature of their actions, though capable of controlling their behavior. The incapacity to understand the nature of an act absolves one of responsibility for the act, if not for the behavior. For example, a person might intentionally jump off a cliff but not intend to kill himself. He may have been responsible for jumping off the cliff, but it would a mistake to say he committed suicide if he thought he could fly and did not intend to kill himself.
Since brain development, damage, and disorders occur in degrees, it follows that understanding and control of thoughts and actions occur in degrees. At one extreme, a person may have little or no control over his or her thoughts and actions. Such a person would be a paradigm case of someone lacking free will. At the other extreme, a person may have an apparent superhuman ability to control his or her thoughts and actions. Someone with such self-discipline would be the paradigm of truly free person in the metaphysical sense of ‘free’. To claim that to be truly free one must not be bound by laws of cause and effect is absurd and unnecessary. It is unnecessary for the reasons just given. It is absurd, for it requires free acts to be uncaused acts. On this notion, the only free person would be the one who had no clue as to what his or her next thought or action would be. Such a person would be as unfree as one could imagine.
Today, the focus of the debate over human responsibility is on the capacity to control one’s thoughts and actions, rather than on the metaphysical presence or absence of a non-physical entity with will. Determinism is compatible with ‘free will’, though the term should be abandoned to indicate that the issue is one of capacity for controlling one’s thoughts and actions. That capacity is independent of the truth of materialism or dualism. Certain neurophysical and neurochemical conditions must hold before one can enjoy whatever freedom our species is capable of. A better understanding of these issues will not come from traditional philosophers debating free will vs. determinism. Neuroscientists will provide the knowledge, neurophilosophers the understanding.
Kind Regards,
Eduardo
Whether “Dave” or “thewordofme” is trivial to me. Your perpectives are quite identical. Your question on Pharoah, Moses, etc. wasn’t of intelligent quality, thus, not worthy of an answer.
Get the Quiji Board anyway, and do a session with “thewordofme”. 🙂
Quiji boards don’t do anything…it’s all in your mind…magic is not real.
Thanks, Eduardo, for an interesting reply. How is it you failed, though, to mention your took it, word from word, from another website?
http://skepdic.com/freewill.html
>Your question on Pharoah, Moses, etc. wasn’t of intelligent quality, thus, not worthy of an answer.<
That’s such a cowardly way out, nilufer. Even if my question didn’t meet your standard for “intelligent quality,” why not answer it? Anyone stopping by here would know why – you’re afraid to.
Again, how can your god have given humans free will if it’s not free, if your god takes it away from us when he wants to (as he did with Pharaoh’s free will)?
The answer, since you fear to think about it, much less offer one, is that the bible doesn’t make sense when we think through the stories, just as some movies don’t make sense because they have plot holes in them big enough to drive a truck through.
Instead of being perpetually stuck in a movie theater, endlessly watching your favorite film, you’ve lodged your mind – your own free will – inside a favorite book that was written long ago in the attempt to make sense of the world around the authors. It was written so long ago, people didn’t even understand the mechanics of rainfall.
True David, word by word, now tell me if God wouldn’t created us wihit “Free Will” what good it would it be to even created us in first place? you see we aren’t like computers just programed to do what we want them to do.
becouse of the free will you have chosen not to believe in him.
God created all things. When he completed creation he said “it is very good”. So everything was perfect when God was done. It was when man chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that sin entered into the world. Man decided that God did not know what he was talking about. Man chose his way over God’s way. Man allowed death and disease and suffering to enter the world.
When I think of the concentration camps or war or rape. It is not the devil that is raping or killing, it is man. Humans making a choice to do evil.
Eduardo.
>Humans making a choice to do evil.
No, you said our lives are scripted. That means if we do evil things, it’s because your god predestined us to do evil things. Either we have free will or we don’t. You need to decide which side of the argument you’re on. Playing both sides doesn’t make sense.
Eduardo, as far as I can tell, you are like many people who are able to hold contradictory ideas in their minds at the same time. I assume you don’t know that you are capable of having contradictory thoughts. And I’m guessing you were either brainwashed into believing there is a god when you at a young age, and/or you had some traumatic incident that made you cast off rational thought.
Here’s an example of your fuzzy thought process: You say your god “created all things.” Does “all” mean the same to you as it does to me? All usually means everything – which would include concentration camps, war and rape.
Yet you also claim that bad things, like rapes and murders are the creation of neither your god nor your devil, but of humans.
So which is it? God created everything, and humans created nothing, as you first said? Or has your god created somethings, and humans can create things, too, like evil acts?
It’s one or the other, but you seem to think both can be true. Which is why you don’t seem to think rationally.
But just for argument’s sake, Eduardo, let’s say that you’re right about people – rather than a god or a devil – who are responsible for raping and killing and doing all sorts of bad things.
Who then is responsible for good things? Things like a doctor coming upon someone who’s hurt in an automobile accident, and saving the person. Or someone getting the highest grades in college, or climbing a difficult mountain, or taking in a bunch of orphans. Who is responsible for the good that people do?
Think carefully about your answer. For if you say bad things happen because humans choose to be evil, then I’ll say good things happen because humans choose to be good.
Either way, your god has left the building. He is pointless, irrelevant, and as far as anyone can tell from any evidence, non-existent . You’ve already admitted he has nothing to do with the way humans act when they are in a bad frame of mind.
Your god just lets it happen – you’ve admitted your god is less than God. You could be spending some time in a hot place for that thought after you die, if what you say you believe comes true.
Your god can only exist in one realm – the realm of your mind, and in the minds of those who are either mistaken, brainwashed, deluded and/or traumatized.
Put another way, if there is a god, it’s only you, Eduardo. If it’s God that exists, rather than a god, it’s nothing more than the common belief system of more than one person.
To Dave and thewordofme:
One last word: you are hellbound. Dumb, dumber, dumbest…neither your questions, nor your answers are worthy of a reply. When you’re dead, you’ll find out the truth. Be patient. There is a place for yourkind. Your roles are wellscripted. By your “free will”, you will go to the realm you deserve to go. Amen.
I won’t waste my time eith you anymore. Bye.
Guess god predestined me to go to Hell. What a god you worship.
You’re god in twisting things around David, but you miss the point .
Here’s an example of your fuzzy thought process: You asked if my god “created “Free Will”.” Does “Free Will” mean the same to you as it does to me? Free Will usually means to chose – which would include concentration camps, war and rape or Things like a doctor coming upon someone who’s hurt in an automobile accident, and saving the person. Or someone getting the highest grades in college, or climbing a difficult mountain, or taking in a bunch of orphans.
So all is to say that YES God gives us the FREE WILL to do good or evil it’s your CHOISE!
Eduardo
>I won’t waste my time eith you anymore.<
Your kind – the kind afraid to look closely at anything other than what you want to look at – always runs away with your tail between your legs.
I don’t know why you lump twom with me – I’m kind of mean, twom seems calm and reasoned.
>So all is to say that YES God gives us the FREE WILL to do good or evil it’s your CHOISE!
Well, then, how about answering my question, Eduardo, about the Egyptian Pharaoh. He WAS going to let the Jewish people go free, but according to the story in the Bible, God hardened his heart and made him change his mind. He took away his free will to allow the Jewish people to go free.
So could you explain, in a few or as many words as you wish, why taking away the free will of Pharaoh doesn’t show that God creates and chooses everything that happens?
If God could take away Pharaoh’s free will in the Bible and make that king do what God wanted him to do, how do you or I or anyone else know that God isn’t making people rape or adopt an orphan?
The Bible appears to be contradictory, and thus untrustworthy, except to people like you who can hold two opposing ideas in your minds.
See nilufer’s farewell above – when it got time to get down to specifics about God and Pharaoh, poor nilufer was unable to formulate an answer. Can you? How does God’s changing the mind of Pharaoh show humans have free will?
Very simple Dave, First of all we must understand that God is omnificent and omnipotent witch means he’s in control of all things, he changes peoples harts like yours or in this case the Pharaoh’s is in order to allow his plan to evolve for example:
the Book of Job in the Hebrew Bible, as well as a prophet in Islam. In brief, the book begins with an introduction to Job’s character — he is described as a blessed man who lives righteously. Satan, however, challenges Job’s integrity, arguing that Job serves God simply because of the “hedge” with which God protects him. God progressively removes that protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, his children, and his physical health. Job remains loyal throughout, and does not curse God. The main portion of the text consists of the discourse of Job and his three friends concerning why Job was so punished, after which God steps in to answer Job and his friends. The Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning and he lived 140 years (Job 42:10,17).
Did Job deserve that?… But his plan was to show Satan that Job’s love for him (God) was unbreakable, when god did that to the pharaohs hart was to complete his master plan of the exodus of the Jews. And he also has a plan for you, which is why he allows you to blaspheme his name.
…but he still loves you.
Eduardo
So why does god love Job more than Satan? If god’s love is unbreakable, why would Satan fall out of favor with him?
Eduardo,
The story of Job in the bible is one of the worst examples of a ‘Loving God’ you could ever pick.
‘God’ lets Satan totally screw over Job and his family and Job has no idea what’s going on…he is completely in the dark as to why his children are dying and things are happening to him.
This is an example of pure evil on the part of God…another reason to stay away from religion.
>First of all we must understand that God is omnificent and omnipotent witch means he’s in control of all things, he changes peoples harts like yours or in this case the Pharaoh’s is in order to allow his plan to evolve for example:<
Eduardo, good try, and I appreciate you taking a shot at answering my question, unlike nilufer, who apparently has zero intellectual courage.
Read carefully what you wrote: “he’s in control of all things”
Yet you’ve also said the humans decide whether or not to choose to do good or evil.
I’m sure you are not aware of it, but you haven’t answered my question: If you God can keep Pharaoh from exercising his free will (he would have let the Jewish people go free), then how can we have free will?
You haven’t, in your own mind, Eduardo, confronted the central issue – you claim we have free will and then you explain why god doesn’t allow it (as in the case of Pharaoh).
In fact, not only will your imaginary god punish humans when they die, your god, according to the Bible, would punish people before they died, for exercising their free will. He’d kill them! He wiped out everyone but Noah and his family, for example.
If you can’t answer the question about your contradictory claims – god grants free will and he doesn’t grant free will – then neither I nor any other rational person will take you seriously. You make opposing claims – only one of them is correct. Either your god controls all, or your god does not control all. Either humans have free will, or they don’t. You say it’s both – I say, until you can explain the contradictions you champion, that you are self-deluded.
Dave, Bill or thewordofme (3 in 1, how nice)
You continuing missing the point.
When you people get god samples from the bible it seems to me that you get corner or lost? And this is the only thing you can respond:
>This is an example of pure evil on the part of God…another reason to stay away from religion*.
– I’m not discussing about religion
*Definition for religion – beliefs and worship: people’s beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life.
>If you are referring to me, then I must inform you I don’t believe in a god, and so I put no more faith in the Quran than I do the Bible.
– You don’t belive in god so you put more faith in the Quaran than the Bible. You’re funny the Muslims call him Allah and we call him God Yahweh they both are the same!
>The Bible appears to be contradictory, and thus untrustworthy, except to people like you who can hold two opposing ideas in your minds.
– There’s two sides for every thing: Good and Evil, Dark and Light, Yahweh and Lucifer, True or False.
>Your god can only exist in one realm – the realm of your mind, and in the minds of those who are either mistaken, brainwashed, deluded and/or traumatized.
– Who’s brain wash, You or Me?
Regards,
Eduardo
Hi Dave,
Have you read the bible before, really have you?
You write:
>In fact, not only will your imaginary god punish humans when they die, your god, according to the Bible, would punish people before they died, for exercising their free will. He’d kill them! He wiped out everyone but Noah and his family.
I encourage you to investigate how “really” was the days before the grate flood, I can help you with some information so you can understand why he wiped out everyone, Remember if your crop is infected with parasite you must destroyed all.
Eduardo.
So god predestined all the people (except for Noah’s family) to perish in a flood? What a sick god you worship.
Hi again eduardo,
You write:
“Very simple Dave, First of all we must understand that God is omnificent and omnipotent witch means he’s in control of all things, he changes peoples harts like yours or in this case the Pharaoh’s is in order to allow his plan to evolve for example:
the Book of Job in the Hebrew Bible, as well as a prophet in Islam.”
OK you have me confused…In one post you are using the example of Job as if you believe the story, and in another you are saying you don’t believe in God or Allah.
Please be so kind as to enlighten me whose side you are on.
By the way I am thewordofme and Bill all wrapped in one 🙂
Hi Dave, nilufer, and eduardo,
Thank you guys for participating in this discussion, I’ve really enjoyed watching as it unfolded.
I would like to throw out one point. I believe that the free-will question is one more proof that the Bible and the belief in the Christian God is false.
Clearly the Bible says that man has free-will and yet it also clearly says he has none. Is that inerrancy, or is that man-made mistake in making up of their manuscript?
I wrote:
> I put no more faith in the Quran than I do the Bible.
Eduardo wrote:
>You don’t belive in god so you put more faith in the Quaran than the Bible.<
Eduardo, look more carefully at my words, i think you may have misinterpreted them. I don’t put faith in the Bible OR the Quran.
Hi, Eduardo – yes, I’ve read the Bible and I’ve read about the Bible.
You wrote: > There’s two sides for every thing: Good and Evil, Dark and Light, Yahweh and Lucifer, True or False.<
That’s true. You have listed things that are opposites. But they are not necessarily contradictory. We have light during the day, dark at night. Some things are good – puppies and ice cream – some are bad, like war. The idea of a god can exist with the concept of a bad god.
However, I asked you not about opposite things, or ideas. I asked you about contradictions. And again you are unable to address my question.
Are you with me so far? If not, let me know.
Let’s move on. Unlike two ideas that can exist together without conflict – like light and dark, good and bad – contradictory ideas cancel each other out. We can have one or the other idea, but not both.
You offer contradictory ideas about your god. On the one hand, you tell us that your god gives humans free will, to do good or bad. Then you write that god has a plan and that he directs the will of people, like the poor Pharaoh.
Do you see the difference? I don’t think you do, but can you try? Light and dark, good and bad are both ideas that, while opposites, do not contradict each other. But to say, as you do, that we have free will and we don’t have free will is a contradiction – one of your ideas about free will may be correct, but they can’t both be correct.
So which is it, Eduardo? Did your god grant free will, or does your god plan everything out? I ask because you’ve said both, and they both can’t be true.
Eduardo wrote:
>Remember if your crop is infected with parasite you must destroyed all.<
But you said your god let people decide how to act, that people could decide for themselves if they were to be good or bad. Now you’ve changed your tune, Eduardo: if people upset your god, he will simply drown them. And of course, he didn’t warn them, and not only that, he killed people around the world who’d never heard of him, for those that had ever heard of the Jewish god, much less believed in a Jewish god, were relatively few.
So your god wiped out everyone on earth with his flood, even those who didn’t know he existed.
That doesn’t make much sense, does it, Eduardo? If it does make sense to you, it goes a long way toward explaining how you can hold onto such silly beliefs.
twom wrote:
> I would like to throw out one point. I believe that the free-will question is one more proof that the Bible and the belief in the Christian God is false.<
I agree. The authors of the Bible, while tapping into some deep recesses of the human mind, were, I think, not capable of thinking all the way through the logical implications of what they thought about, what they believed. When we think about the meaning of the Bible, with rational minds, we can see that much of it is illogical, and that the very concept of an all powerful, all knowing god is illogical, too.
There are some good stories in the Bible, some interesting character development, a lot of blood and a lot of sex, beautiful language, metaphors, parables, etc. But when it comes down to it, the Bible is confused about the meaning and purpose of reality, just as many people are.
Those brain-washed from an early age can’t free their minds without a lot of help and in fact, it would seem, looking at some of the comments here, that making some people see how foolish religious beliefs are is impossible.
Hi Dave, thanks for writing.
You write:
“There are some good stories in the Bible, some interesting character development, a lot of blood and a lot of sex, beautiful language, metaphors, parables, etc. But when it comes down to it, the Bible is confused about the meaning and purpose of reality, just as many people are.”
You are quite right, the Bible and it’s little drama of original sin, guilt, redemption, God sending himself (for trinitarians only here) to be sacrificed at the hands of the Jews or Pagans or both, I get so confused. 🙂
Anyway it’s the silliest story around, and makes absolutely no logical sense….and it’s all made up myths.
TWOM and Dave,
What’s the real origin of MAN? and please don’t just tell me “evolution”, you guys like proofs so do I, not just contradictory theories or evidences I want solid facts!
and also what do you think of the discovery of several giant human like skeletons around the world (giant over 8ft tall) and please do not tell me that’s not true because the evidence on those findings are the same of the findings on dinosaurs.
Eduardo.
twom, Dave
In order to accurate answer your original question “Did God Give US Free Will?” I need the answers of my earlier questions, The origin of man and giants.
Eduardo.
Eduardo, you know you’re hopless, don’t you? 😉
There you go again, avoiding topics – e.g. free will – we’ve been dealing with.
You don’t want solid facts. If we were to present them to you, the reply you would give us would be “I don’t want contradictory theories of evidences.”
NOTHING in the way of facts will ever satisfy you, Eduardo. There is nothing contradictory about evolution when it comes to facts. (Tell me, have you ever received a flu vaccination?)
Long ago, a friend who thought as illogically as you do, once told me that he didn’t believe humans had evolved from more primitive ancestors, because there weren’t enough fossil remains – the record was to incomplete for him to believe in human evolution.
When I asked him if he would believe in evolution if all the missing fossils could be found to show a line of progress from primitive creatures to human, the answer was, “No, I still wouldn’t believe in evolution.”
So, as you are, my friend was hopeless when it came to logical thought.
As for giant human skeletons, since you’ve asserted there are giant human skeletons out there, it’s up to you to provide some proof…………………………..(sound of crickets chirping)…………….Well, I’m waiting. Provide something and I’ll explain it to you, though I know you won’t understand or accept what I say. Maybe if we could get you into a deprogramming session….no, it’s too late for you. 😉
My friend David, you are the hopeless one whom really needs deprogramming session (I will provide them free to you) and some one to remove the velor that won’t allow you to see the reality for what it is and not for what your controlled main sees and wants to infected all of the people whom read this web site!
You prefer to believe in darwin’s theory witch is full of loop holes instead of the BIBLE, but it seems to me that the way you read and interpret the BIBLE is very superficial, there’s many, hundreds of books with enough scientific proof of what this planes has going trough out of its millions and millions of years of existence, get your head out of the cloud and start investigating in more dept and you will REALLY find the true reason of our CREATION, “TRUE KNOWLEDGE WILL SET YOU FREE”
Here’s an example of the reality about GIANTS, my poor misguided friend:
“And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. There were giants [NEPHILIM] in the earth in those days; and also after that (at the time of Moses), when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repented me that I have made them. (Genesis chapter 6).”
Satanic bloodlines
The Bible says that before the Great Flood, human women married the “sons of God” and they produced GIANTS in size and in iniquity. All nations have legends about giants. That is where the Greek demigods like Prometheus, Atlas and Titan came from. The only true account of that tragedy is found in the Book of Genesis which was written by Moses. We can get an idea of what Satan did back then by studying his methods in subsequent history. All the universe and history is circular in aspect. God declares the end right at the beginning.
What happened before the Great Flood?
When Adam and Eve died, Satan introduced the theory of evolution into the world that teaches that man and animals are genetically related. He downplayed the story of the creation and fall of man by the sin of Adam and Eve. Then women began to assume a dominant role in human affairs. Satan downplayed the command of God that women were to be in subjection to their husbands.
These fallen angels must have introduced their scheme as an evolutionary advance for mankind. They promised the women that if they married and bore their offspring they would not have to be in subjection to their husbands. As a result, the world was overrun by half human half animal genetic monstrosities and God decided to destroy the entire world except for Noah and his family.
Hi Eduardo, thanks for your reply.
I have heard of some large skeletons being found in the Middle East, nothing like a Goliath size that fought with David though. Largest skeleton (that I’ve heard about) found in Israel is 6 feet, 6 inches. I would like to see or read the evidence for the 8 ft. tall humans you mention…perhaps you could point me to the website.
All the evidence so far indicates and backs up the theory that we are descended from humanoid apes such as Homo-ergaster or Homo habilis. We share many/most genes with the Bonobos and chimpanzees. There is plenty of evidence for modern humans going back many, many thousands of years; well beyond Adam and Eve.
Some sites I use for research follow:
http://www.archaeology.org/
http://www.bib-arch.org/
http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-V2/2evlch18a.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wear/7432306.stm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://www.42explore2.com/prehist.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory
http://www.kidspast.com/world-history/0001-prehistoric-humans.php
http://reference.howstuffworks.com/prehistoric-people-encyclopedia.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/fossils_ruins/evolution/
http://www.sciam.com/archaeology-and-paleontology
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/interest/id/2365/topic/Life
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7220/ Subscription required
http://www.nationalacademies.org/evolution/
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html
http://www.sciencemag.org/ Subscription required
http://www.britannica.com/ Subscription required
Here is a small part of the subjects I search for information on:
DNA, Adam and Eve, Babylon, Jericho, God, Neanderthal, pyramids, Jesus, dating methods, stratigraphy, bronze age, geology, hieroglyphs, Gilgamesh, cave paintings, Mesopotamia, genetics, scripture, Hebrews, Torah, myths, Abraham, Ur of the Chaldean’s, Noah’s flood, Stonehenge, Yahweh, Elohim, El, Jehovah, RNA, Lot, biblical tribes, city of Dan, city of Laish, sea people, age of earth, Christian myth, Sumerians, Akkadians, Chaldea or Chaldeans, Assyria, Indus valley civilization, ancient Egypt, Hammurabi, flood stories, flood myths, ancient native Americans, Solutrian, Clovis points, African civilization(s), iron age, ancient Briton, ancient Europe, Hebron, biology, Midrash, Jewish myths, ancient languages, archaeological dating, carbon dating, Dendrocronology, oil geology, Permian, Paleontology, human history, human pre-history, ancient India, ancient Iran, henges, stelas, Rosetta stone, cuneiform writing, Euphrates river, Tigris river, life sciences
2
Hi Bill,
You ask for some of the websites:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%
urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_giant_skeleton.htm
stevequayle.com/Giants/N.Am/Marion.County.html
http://www.snopes.com/photos/odd/giantman.asp
http://www.bibleufo.com/humanphenom7.htm
http://www.rense.com/general2/giants.htm
paranormal.about.com/od/mysteriousremains/Mysterious_Human_Remains.htm
s8int.com/giants19.html ·
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/giantsb.html
http://www.msnusers.com/GiantstheBibleandEnoch/giants6.msnw
http://www.bibleprobe.com/nephilim.htm
news.nationalgeographic.com/news
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/photogalleries/giantskeleton-pictures/photo2.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/716073/posts
http://www.stangrist.com/giants.htm
I also highly recommend you to read one of the following books:
The lost God Enky, By Zecharia Sitchin
The Genesis Story, By James Quatro
Forbidden History, By Douglas Kenyon
Fingerprints of the Gods, By Graham Hancock
Nephilim Stargates, By Thomas Horn
Hi Eduardo,
You write (to Dave, but I had to get my 2 cents worth in):
“>>Here’s an example of the reality about GIANTS, my poor misguided friend:
“And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. There were giants [NEPHILIM] in the earth in those days; and also after that (at the time of Moses), when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”<<
My friend you are confusing myth with reality. And, the real story is that the women were raped, screwed as it were.
But, worry not…it’s all myth.
Bill,
You write:
All the evidence so far indicates and backs up the theory that we are descended from humanoid apes such as Homo-ergaster or Homo habilis. We share many/most genes with the Bonobos and chimpanzees. There is plenty of evidence for modern humans going back many, many thousands of years; well beyond Adam and Eve.
I agree, with certain extend but have you consider in DNA manipulation or alteration, I believe in “God” (only one) as an entity and he’s in control of all, beyond our comprehension, we can’t be a product of pure luck, our complex body construction, our Concepcion, is overwhelming to just be “because”.
As an specie for survival we do not need any of the extras such as: emotions = love, sadness, color, taste,etc,etc,etc.
Hi again Eduardo, thanks for reply
Found this on National Geographic’s website.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/photogalleries/giantskeleton-pictures/index.html
“December 14, 2007 Since 2004 this doctored image has helped give legs to tall tales of ancient giant humans.
At least one version of the story published in the March 2007 issue of India’s Hindu Voice monthly and cited in countless blog entries and emails this year claims that a National Geographic Society team helped make the “discovery” in India. (The National Geographic Society owns National Geographic News.)
The picture, however, is an innocent fake.
The image was lifted from Worth1000, a Web site that hosts contests for digital artists. Created by an artist using the alias IronKite, the picture placed third in a 2002 competition titled “Archaeological Anomalies 2,” which asked contestants to create a hoax archaeological discovery.” For more information go to site and follow the links to real pics.
“Zecharia Sitchin is an author of books promoting an ancient astronaut theory of human origins. Sitchin attributes the creation of the ancient Sumerian culture to the “Annunaki” (or “Nephilim”), a race of aliens from a planet he calls Nibiru in the solar system. He asserts that Sumerian mythology reflects this view, though his speculations are entirely discounted by mainstream scientists, historians, and archaeologists, who see many problems with his translations of ancient texts and with his understanding of physics.” From Wikipedia.
The other authors and books you mention are of very questionable scientific authenticity. I did check them out, as well as the other links you provided.
You are following folklore and myths and UFO related stuff. I personally don’t believe or follow these stories.
twom
Hi Dave,
Just wanted to thank you for your participation.
twom
Twom,
Okay Bill, I will never change your way of thinking nor you mine, plus that wasn’t my intention, am only trying to give you the other side of the coin, I know deep inside of you, you must wonder if we are juts a freak accident of nature or a thoughtful creation, your ideas are hopeless and do not offer any solid evidence nor reason of our existence or how we became to be, in the other hand, the creation “theory” or myth as you called give us all of that plus a reason and hope for a better tomorrow and a gift of eternity only by giving “LOVE” , “EQUALITY” , “BROTHERHOOD” to ALL humans and respect to all living things.
Which one you would really, really want to pass to your grandchildren?
Hi Eduardo
I wouldn’t want to change anyone. I just throw the real science out there, and if some of it ‘sticks’…that’s great.
Regarding the freak of nature or thoughtful creation you mention; I don’t think we are freaks of nature, but we are probably a phenomenon that happens all over the universe…”Life will find a way,” to quote Michael Crichton.
Life alone is reason enough for existence.
You are seriously wrong about the Hebrew myths…you need to really read it someday. 🙂
Hi Bill,
You didn’t mention any thing about my question.
have you ever consider in DNA manipulation or alteration?
what about if EVOLUTION and DNA modification go hand to hand?
read the book The Genesis story by James Quatro, it has lots of scientific authenticity.
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo,
You write:
“have you ever consider in DNA manipulation or alteration?
what about if EVOLUTION and DNA modification go hand to hand?”
I’m not too sure of the question there Eduardo.
From two separate DNA studies we know that *modern* humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago and spread out from there.
Before modern humans (Homo sapiens) there were a succession of Homo’s that we are related to and evolved from. They walked upright and made and used tools.
The last ‘human’ in the line of succession to us appears to be Homo Neanderthal. They died out about 25 to 30 thousand years ago. Their DNA is about 99.5% identical to us. Bonobo monkeys and common chimps share about 97-98% of our DNA.
We know from DNA studies that present day humans on earth do not show a bottle neck of 2 or 6 human ancestors. That would be Adam and Eve and the three sons and wives of Noah. Those scenarios never happened.
As far as manipulation of DNA, I don’t know what you are asking.
twom
Hi Bill,
(Please read it all)
What I meant is the fowling: Life has going trough evolution, in that part you and I agreed, but when it came to humans, cience haven’t been too reliable in proving our direct ancestry with any other humanoid spices. Scientific record and evidence places the beginning of the genus HOMO at two million years ago with the emergence of Homo habilis from East and Southern Africa. This species is the earliest known record of man that is categorized in the same group as living humans. It was at this point in time that stone tools first appeared and they are classified as the OLDOWAN / DEVELOPED OLDOWAN Tradition. Homo habilis represents a remarkable change in the comparison of other earlier species believed to be more primitive forms of humans. Up to this point in time, Africa is the only location in the world for human existence.
At 1.75 million years ago, Homo erectus (a.k.a. Homo ergaster) appears and spreads throughout North Africa eventually traveling to Eurasia. Homo erectus (other H. erectus variants include Homo ergaster, Homo heidelbergensis) survived for 1.5 million years in Africa and Asia. They were active hunters that lived in small huts and caves, mastered the use of fire and fashioned a variety of stone tools. These bifacial stone tools were different from the Oldowan tools as they were fashioned out of large flakes and occur in greater abundance and variety. This change in tool development first occurs 1.4 million years ago and is classified as the ACHEULIAN TRADITION. From 500,000 years ago to 250,000 years ago, Homo erectus was transitioning into an archaic form of Homo sapiens in Africa and Europe. True Homo erectus simultaneously existed at this time only in Northern Africa and China but eventually disappears from the fossil record 250,000 years ago leaving Homo sapiens as the only human species left on the planet.
The most famous variety of archaic Homo sapiens is undoubtedly the Neanderthal people. Perhaps no other type of primitive man has been so maligned as that of the Neanderthals and recent discoveries are sending many scientists back to their proverbial drawing boards to rewrite an accurate account of these amazing peoples. Scientists now classify them as a sub-species of Homo sapiens, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. With the emergence of Neanderthals comes a new, more advanced and specialized tool technology called the MOUSTERIAN TRADITION.
While signs of developing Neanderthals arose 300,000 years ago, true Neanderthals can first be attributed back to 150,000 years ago. They populated regions in Europe and the Near East, and existed right up to just 30,000 years ago in western France. Between 125,000 and 100,000 years ago, the Neanderthals spread east and south, and they are known in northern Africa and from France through southern Europe, the former southern Soviet states and Iraq. Current evidence shows that despite Neanderthals’ stockier build, they share several key features with modern man. There is also clear evidence that they had control of fire, lived in caves or open-air structures of stone and vegetation.
One of the most important artifacts of primitive man is the existence of stone tools. The PALEOLITHIC Period is defined as the time from the first use of stone tools around two million years ago to the Pleistocene Period, 12,000 years ago. The Paleolithic Period is divided into three categories, Lower, Middle and Upper Paleolithic Period.
Science have the excuse of the “MISSING LINK” because they haven’t find any prehistoric “human” with a DNA 100% like ours.
So I say, what about evolution trough genetic engineering; and thus did ADAM (literally, “He of the Earth” earthling) come into being. As a hybrid?
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo,
I know all the stuff you wrote about. Scientists find evidence of fully modern humans from about 200,000 years ago…before that is Homo-erectus, habilis, ergaster, et. al….Our ancestors.
Are you saying in the last two paragraphs that Adam, who is the progenitor of the Jewish line, is somehow a God made hybrid from fully modern human stock….and what?
No thats not what I’m saying…, Homo-erectus, habilis, ergaster, et. al….Our supossed ancestorsThe last ‘human’ in the line of succession to us appears to be Homo Neanderthal. They died out about 25 to 30 thousand years ago. Their DNA is about 99.5% identical but not with a 100% DNA as HOMO SAPIENS (US) wich makes them from a different genealogical tree even science separate those (Neardenthals) from us, Science have the excuse of the “MISSING LINK” So I”m saying, we’re a product of evolution trough genetic engineering; and thus did ADAM (literally, “He of the Earth” earthling) come into being. As a hybrid, in another words God allow evolution to take place until his plan was at the stage were he wanted it and then trough genetic engineering; and thus did ADAM
Read the Bible with another perspective and you will see what I’m saying.
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo,
At some point there was a genetic hiccup and a human or humans with our genetic code was born from one of our ancestors–Homo-erectus, habilis, neanderthal, ergaster, etc, etc.—and at some point in time modern human and ancient were co-existing along with the Neanderthals.
This is supposition at this point as scientists have not got all the answers…yet. But, unlike the Bible, it is not attributed to God because we don’t know yet…it is being worked on and a solution will be known. At no point in our quest for knowledge have we had to give up and say it must be magic.
The thing is we humans are at one point, in deep time, connected with the ancient bi-pedal hominids that were walking the earth a million+ years ago and making tools as we do. Another thing to think about; Every time the Bible and science have disagreed…science ends up winning, because it comes up with actual proof, not dialogue or apologetics.
There is no evidence at all for a change of human DNA around the time of the biblical Adam and Eve 6000 years ago Modern humans at the time (6000 years ago) numbered in the millions and were spread all over the earth. They already had many different languages This part added 20 min later.
Hi Bill,
Frist of allI want to thank you for your time, now please bare with me.
I like the way you put it “hiccup” or “This is supposition at this point as scientists have not got all the answers” but when it comes to the bible you called “You are following folklore and myths”, most people read the Bible including you in a very superficial way, any body that’s read the bible and interprets what it’s reading in a superficial way will never accepts the bible for what it’s a manual of instructions about life and humanity, i.e., The Book of Genesis records the six days of creation, commonly referred to as the “Creation Week”: you and I know that’s impossible, that’s just figurative speaking, but if we all do our home work the right way and take our time to do the correct research, then all will make sense, i.e., People often wonder how there could have been a day/night cycle for Day 1 through Day 3, while it wasn’t until Day 4 that God created the sun to be the permanent light source for the Earth. All it takes for the Earth to have a day/night cycle is for the Earth to rotate on its axis and for light to come from one direction. The Genesis account tells us that God created both the Earth and light on Day 1. The Genesis account also tells us there was a day/night cycle on Day 1. Thus, we can logically conclude that the Earth was already rotating in space relative to this light source on Day 1. On Day 4, God created the sun as Earth’s permanent light source. Thus, the temporary light source, whatever it was, was no longer necessary.
The Book of Genesis is the foundation for the universal institution of the seven-day week. The 24-hour day/night cycle is determined by Earth’s rotation on its axis. The 30-day month cycle is determined by the moon’s lunar orbit. The 365-day year cycle is determined by the Earth’s solar orbit. It’s interesting that the 7-day week cycle is universal, yet it has no basis outside the Book of Genesis.
Book of Genesis – A Creator God is Necessary
About 100 years after Darwin, the history presented in the Book of Genesis was once again vindicated by scientific observations. With advances in Biochemistry, Microbiology and Genetics, Darwin’s proposed evolutionary mechanism was shown to be deficient. Natural Selection has been shown to be a conservative process, not a creative process. Thus, the Theory of Evolution is without a feasible mechanism. Furthermore, the Information and Language Convention inherent to the DNA molecule, together with the insurmountable hurdle of Irreducible Complexity, have once more vindicated the necessity of a Creator God
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo,
You write:
>>” The Book of Genesis records the six days of creation, commonly referred to as the “Creation Week”<>” Darwin’s proposed evolutionary mechanism was shown to be deficient. Natural Selection has been shown to be a conservative process, not a creative process. Thus, the Theory of Evolution is without a feasible mechanism.”<>” About 100 years after Darwin, the history presented in the Book of Genesis was once again vindicated by scientific observations.”<<
Well, I believe that ‘the week of creation’ lasted a few billion years. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. It was created by the accretion of stellar material over a tremendous length of time. Life probably formed in some tide-pools billions of years ago and it was all uphill from there.
When I read the Bible I see it for what I believe it is…Hebrew myth. It was a product of its time and shows no godly spark. Almost all Christians today have no idea how their religion was formed and the many steps and ‘corrections’ it went through. In light of today’s knowledge of our world, and universe, the Bible does not stand up to critical analysis. There are so many problems with it. Christians and people of religion are unique in their ability to ignore the problems and dichotomies found in it, so I see no easy remedy.
You write:
>>” Darwin’s proposed evolutionary mechanism was shown to be deficient. Natural Selection has been shown to be a conservative process, not a creative process. Thus, the Theory of Evolution is without a feasible mechanism.”<>” About 100 years after Darwin, the history presented in the Book of Genesis was once again vindicated by scientific observations.”<<
Pope John Paul II
In an October 22, 1996, address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Pope John Paul II updated the Church’s position to accept evolution of the human body:
He writes:
“In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points….Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies — which was neither planned nor sought — constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.” Pope John Paul II
Pope Benedict XVI writes:
“The Church has deferred to scientists on matters such as the age of the earth and the authenticity of the fossil record. Papal pronouncements, along with commentaries by cardinals, have accepted the findings of scientists on the gradual appearance of life. In fact, the International Theological Commission in a July 2004 statement endorsed by Cardinal Ratzinger, then president of the Commission and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, now Pope Benedict XVI, includes this paragraph:
According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the ‘Big Bang’ and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets.
In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5 – 4 billion years ago.
Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.” Pope Benedict XVI
If you believe that the theory of evolution is somehow being disproved you are being very mislead.
Now of course the opinion of the Catholic Church doesn’t really matter because the reality of proof is evident and testable. But, it’s kind of neat that an organization of over a billion people accepts Darwin’s theory.
The *‘Irreducible Complexity’* theory that M. Behe forwarded was disproven several years ago. Both the eye and the biological flagellum were observed to evolve from other parts.
twom
Hi Bill,
the Catholic Church is one of the worst religions ever created, and to use it as an example to justified Darwin’s theory as some how credible is poor and misleading.
You Write:
>>” Now of course the opinion of the Catholic Church doesn’t really matter because the reality of proof is evident and testable. But, it’s kind of neat that an organization of over a billion people accepts Darwin’s theory.
It seems that you conveniently forgot to read this part:
“But he said he continues to believe that “God is the creator of the universe and that we are not the result of chance.”
further more:
VATICAN CITY – Believing that the universe may contain alien life does not contradict a faith in God, the Vatican’s chief astronomer said in an interview published Tuesday.
The Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, was quoted as saying the vastness of the universe means it is possible there could be other forms of life outside Earth, even intelligent ones.
“How can we rule out that life may have developed elsewhere?” Funes said. “Just as we consider earthly creatures as ‘a brother,’ and ‘sister,’ why should we not talk about an ‘extraterrestrial brother’? It would still be part of creation.”
In the interview by the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano, Funes said that such a notion “doesn’t contradict our faith” because aliens would still be God’s creatures. Ruling out the existence of aliens would be like “putting limits” on God’s creative freedom, he said.
The interview, headlined “The extraterrestrial is my brother,” covered a variety of topics including the relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and science, and the theological implications of the existence of alien life.
Funes said science, especially astronomy, does not contradict religion, touching on a theme of Pope Benedict XVI, who has made exploring the relationship between faith and reason a key aspect of his papacy.
The Bible “is not a science book,” Funes said, adding that he believes the Big Bang theory is the most “reasonable” explanation for the creation of the universe. The theory says the universe began billions of years ago in the explosion of a single, super-dense point that contained all matter.
But he said he continues to believe that “God is the creator of the universe and that we are not the result of chance.”
My point still is: we’re a product of evolution trough genetic engineering; and thus did ADAM (literally, “He of the Earth” earthling) come into being. As a hybrid, in another words God allow evolution to take place until his plan was at the stage were he wanted it and then trough genetic engineering; and thus did ADAM
Eduardo.
Hi Eduardo,
Like I said in the reply, it really doesn’t matter about the Catholics…the actual point there is that even they have to bow down and admit that science is right on this matter…after a thousand years of denial they realize they are wrong and finally admit it. And by the way, I agree with you on the Catholic Church. The fact is they have for 1300 + years victimized hundreds of thousands of people and who knows how many children, and grown to be the richest institution in the world…and they did it using the Christian God Yahweh, and their version of the scriptures that they held hostage until the 1500’s. Also religion in general is responsible for more deaths in this world than any other cause…such a Godly pursuit.
You write:
“But he said he continues to believe that “God is the creator of the universe and that we are not the result of chance.”
So you castigate me for using the Catholics and then you quote their Pope as an example of what to believe? I don’t believe that part was included where I picked up the quote.
You write:
“My point still is: we’re a product of evolution trough genetic engineering; and thus did ADAM (literally, “He of the Earth” earthling) come into being. As a hybrid, in another words God allow evolution to take place until his plan was at the stage where he wanted it and then trough genetic engineering; and thus did ADAM”
At least this would explain where Cain’s wife and city building helpers came from.
Who is being breed to whom here?
International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
Adam: “…. thus introducing the definite article, and read uniformly “the man” up to 4:25, where the absence of the article may be taken as an indication that “the man” of the previous narrative is to be identified with “Adam,” the head of the genealogy found in 5:1 ff. Several conjectures have been put forth as to the root-meaning of the Hebrew word:
(1) creature;
(2) ruddy one;
(3) earthborn. Less probable are
(4) pleasant—to sight—and
(5) social gregarious.
Strong’s concordance #120 Adam
1) man, mankind
a) man, human being
b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
c) Adam, first man
Go here for more info: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H120&t=KJV&sf=5
Wiki answers:
Adam means “(red) earth.”
‘Adama’ is earth, ‘adom’ is red and Adam literally means man. They’re all spelled the same way in Hebrew but have different pronunciations.
(Ad´am) [Earthling Man; Mankind; Humankind; from a root meaning “red”].
Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon:
120 ‘adam aw-dawm’ from; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):–X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Who is breeding with whom?
twom
Hi Bill,
You write:
>>”Also religion in general is responsible for more deaths in this world than any other cause…such a Godly pursuit.”
You and I know that humanity trough out history with or with out “RELIGION” has been murderous by ‘nature” or as I would call it due to our “original sin”
You ask:
>> Who is breeding with whom?
In order for me to have a constructive dialog about that subject I need you to read the book “The lost Book of Enki: Memoire and Prophecies of an Extraterrestrial God, by: Zachariah Sitchin, with an open mind.
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo, thanks for writing.
You Write:
>>” You and I know that humanity throughout history, with or without “RELIGION”, has been murderous by ‘nature,” or as I would call it due to our “original sin”<<
You are probably right about that…maybe I could rephrase the statement to have it make more sense.
How about this: Since men invented religion about 1000 to 500 BCE, religion has been some part of, or responsible for, all further wars. One war alone, the ‘hundred year war,’ which by the way lasted 106 years; the Catholics and Protestants in Germany, fighting each other, lowered the population of that country from 18 million to 4 million.
So basically since Constantine made Christianity legal in 313 AD, the churches and religion have been responsible for more deaths than any other single factor.
If I had been alive in the period from 325 AD to about 1850 AD I probably would have been put to death for my beliefs. Many Muslims today are being put in jail or killed for what they believe about the Muslim religion. You don’t want to be a Christian anywhere in the Muslim controlled world (except where our troops are).
Paul didn’t originate ‘original sin’ till about 40 to 60 AD, but the Christians (Jews) and Romans and Greeks were already in a ‘holy war’ about monotheism and polytheism.
Regarding Zachariah Sitchin. I don’t think I could read his book with an open mind. Even UFO believers think he’s nuts.
See this site: http://www.bibleufo.com/conundrum2.htm
I am into real testable, provable science…not faux science.
I know some astronomy and his theory about Planet X is not true.
twom
Hi Bill,
Yo Write:
>> I am into real testable, provable science…not faux science.
Then could you help me to understand where the following came from?
The magnificent colossal stone heads, massive altars, and sophisticated anthropomorphic and zoomorphic statues found at Olmec sites in southern Veracruz and Tabasco, are the oldest known monuments in Prehispanic Mexico. (this heads have black African features)
Monuments were also an important characteristic of Olmec centers, and today they provide us with some idea of the nature of Olmec ideology. The colossal heads are commanding portraits of individual Olmec rulers, and the large symbol displayed on the “helmet” of each colossal head appears to be an identification motif for that person. Colossal heads glorified the rulers while they were alive, and commemorated them as revered ancestors after their death. “Altars” were actually the thrones of Olmec rulers. The carving on the front of the throne shows the identified ruler sitting in a niche that symbolizes a cave entrance to the supernatural powers of the underworld. That scene communicated to the people their ruler’s association with cosmological power.
Geologists have determined that the basalt used to make most of the monuments at San Lorenzo and La Venta came from the area of the Tuxtlas mountains. In 1960, archaeologist Alfonso Medellin Zenil discovered Llano del Jicaro, an Olmec basalt quarry site and monument workshop. The quarry, near the Tuxtla mountains, is only 7 kilometers (4 miles) from the Olmec center of Laguna de los Cerros, and was controlled by it. Excavations at Llano del Jicaro in 1991 provided data on the process of monument manufacture. A large unfinished altar there demonstrates that the monuments were given their basic shape at the quarry site, and then transported to the centers for finishing. However, an important question could not be answered: how were the huge stones for altars and colossal heads transported from the Tuxtlas across the hills, rivers and swamps of the Olmec domain to San Lorenzo and La Venta?
Approximately 86 kilometers northeast of the city of Beirut in eastern Lebanon stands the temple complex of Baalbek. Situated atop a high point in the fertile Bekaa valley, the ruins are one of the most extraordinary and enigmatic holy places of ancient times. Long before the Romans conquered the site and built their enormous temple of Jupiter, long even before the Phoenicians constructed a temple to the god Baal, there stood at Baalbek the largest stone block construction found in the entire world.
The origin of the name Baalbek is not precisely known and there is some difference of opinion among scholars. The Phoenician term Baal (as the Hebrew term Adon) simply means ‘lord’ or ‘god’ and was the title given to the Semitic sky-deity worshipped throughout the archaic Middle East. The word Baalbek may mean ‘God of the Bekaa valley’ (the local area) or ‘God of the Town’, depending on different interpretations of the word. Ancient legends assert that Baalbek was the birthplace of Baal. Some scholars have suggested that Baal (the Assyrian Hadad) was only one of a triad of Phoenician deities that were once venerated at this site – the others being his son Aliyan, who presided over well-springs and fecundity, and his daughter Anat (Assyrian Atargatis).
The great Pyramids of Egypt (Giza) etc, etc, etc.
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo, thanks for writing.
I have no problem with the current scientific explanations of all of the prehistoric art, architecture, monumental buildings and such.
We know for a fact that modern humans were walking the earth tens and tens of thousands of years ago. You mention Olmec monument sites that have African features on the people depicted…we all descended from people from Africa.
We know for a fact that people were in the Americas 13,000 years ago. There is evidence starting to show up now that we may have to push those times further back in history. Nothing really confirmed yet, but these times may have to go back to 25 to 40 thousand years ago.
We know for a fact that many of the pyramids are over 5,000 years old. We have many artifacts and samples of art that go back more than 15,000 years. The evidence that earth has seen human people walking and living here for waaay over 6,000 years is literally overwhelming. So I find no problem with ancient monuments…they do not have to be ‘alien’ or supernatural. Humans are plenty smart enough to do these things.
There is a lot about prehistory that we don’t know…but conversely there is a tremendous amount we do know. Check this out on Wikipedia and follow some of the links. Also notice the dating.
“Göbekli Tepe (Turkish for “Hill with a Belly”) is a hilltop sanctuary built on the highest point of an elongated mountain ridge about 15km northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (Urfa) in southeastern Turkey. The site, currently undergoing excavation by German and Turkish archaeologists, was erected by hunter-gatherers in the 10th millennium BC (ca 11,500 years ago), before the advent of sedentism. It is currently considered the oldest known shrine or temple complex in the world and the planet’s oldest known example of monumental and religiously-driven architecture. Together with the site of Nevalı Çori, it has revolutionized the understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic.” Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
The talk about ‘Gods of the town’ or the valley, etc. are just beliefs of people who didn’t know any better. There is no magic or supernatural forces at work on the earth…never was.
twom
Hi Bill,
As usual, it’s a pleasure talking (writing) with you.
You write:
>> “we all descended from people from Africa.
I agree 100% with you on that. But for us “homo sapien” to have evolve from nothing (Darwin’s theory) to modern humans with an spontaneous advanced technology / intelligence capable of moving the largest stone block construction found (Lebanon) in the entire world, witch modern man (science) can’t even star to comprehend how ancient people were capable of doing such a tasks, and many other things like: astronomy, astrology, medicine, surgery (trepanation), etc,etc.
In the other hand, the bible give us the answer on how we accuaire all of that “inteligence”:
As recounted in the Dead Sea Scrolls:
“…’In the days of Jared’, two hundred Watchers ‘descended’ on ‘Ardis’, the summit of Mount Hermon – a mythical location equated with the triple peak of Jebel esh Sheikh (9,200 feet), placed in the most northerly region of ancient Palestine. In Old Testament times its snowy heights had been revered as sacred by various peoples who inhabited the Holy Land; it was also the probable site of the Transfiguration of Christ when the disciples witnessed their Lord ‘transfigured before them’.
“Other Watchers stand accused of revealing to mortal kind the knowledge of more scientific arts, such as the knowledge of the clouds, or meteorology; the ‘signs of the earth’, presumably geodesy and geography; as well as astronomy and the ‘signs’, or passage, of the celestial bodies, such as the sun and moon. Shemyaza [the leader of the Watchers] is accredited with having taught men ‘enchantments, and root-cuttings’, a reference to the magical arts…One of their number, Penemue, taught ‘the bitter and the sweet’, surely a reference to the use of herbs and spices in foods, while instructing men on the use of ‘ink and paper’, implying that the Watchers introduced the earliest forms of writing. Far more disturbing is Kisdeja, who is said to have shown ‘the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of the embryo in the womb, that it may pass away’. In other words, he taught women how to abort their babies.”
– Andrew Collins, From the Ashes of Angels – The Forbidden Legacy of a Fallen Race (1996) p. 26
Many other people unbelievers will call them extraterrestrials instead of biblical angels.
Eduardo
Hi again Eduardo,
You write:
“I agree 100% with you on that. But for us “homo sapien” to have evolve from nothing (Darwin’s theory) to modern humans with an spontaneous advanced technology / intelligence capable of moving the largest stone block construction found (Lebanon) in the entire world, witch modern man (science) can’t even star to comprehend how ancient people were capable of doing such a tasks, and many other things like: astronomy, astrology, medicine, surgery (trepanation), etc., etc.”
If you accept that modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) have been around for 200,000 years and that we have evolved from ‘erectus and habilis, etc.’ and other humanoids who have been around for 2 million or so years than that is plenty of time to have figured out how the world and ‘things’ work.
Consider the work of ONE man in our history:
“Sir Isaac Newton, FRS (4 January 1643 – 31 March 1727 [OS: 25 December 1642 – 20 March 1726]) was an English physicist, mathematician, astronomer, natural philosopher, alchemist, theologian and one of the most influential men in human history. His “Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica”, published in 1687, is considered to be the most influential book in the history of science. In this work, Newton described universal gravitation and the three laws of motion, laying the groundwork for classical mechanics, which dominated the scientific view of the physical universe for the next three centuries and is the basis for modern engineering. Newton showed that the motions of objects on Earth and of celestial bodies are governed by the same set of natural laws by demonstrating the consistency between Kepler’s laws of planetary motion and his theory of gravitation, thus removing the last doubts about heliocentrism and advancing the scientific revolution.
In mechanics, Newton enunciated the principles of conservation of momentum and angular momentum. In optics, he built the first “practical” reflecting telescope and developed a theory of color based on the observation that a prism decomposes white light into a visible spectrum. He also formulated an empirical law of cooling and studied the speed of sound.
In mathematics, Newton shares the credit with Gottfried Leibniz for the development of the differential and integral calculus. He also demonstrated the generalized binomial theorem, developed the so-called “Newton’s method” for approximating the zeroes of a function, and contributed to the study of power series.” From Wikipedia Here
He did all that in the 1600’s working with the tools available to him at the time. I think the human race got along just fine without magic or supernatural happenings. All things natural on this earth can be described by natural laws.
twom
Hi Eduardo,
Just found this on the web.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/12/081203-homo-sapien-missions.html
Seems we modern humans have been around longer than previously thought, maybe close to 300,000 years.
Hi Bill,
You write:
>>“Sir Isaac Newton, FRS (4 January 1643 – 31 March 1727 [OS: 25 December 1642 – 20 March 1726]) was an English physicist, mathematician, astronomer, natural philosopher, alchemist, theologian and one of the most influential men in human history.
You’re 100% correct, I think that you and I finally found a common ground to prove or disprove the existence of a creator God.
As you well put it : “Newton is one of the most influential men in human history” .He dedicated most of his research studies and work in to theology.
Sir Isaac Newton was not only a great thinker in physics, but had extensive knowledge of the Scriptures with a special interest in prophecy. Newton believed there was a hidden code, a type of time-encrypted language. He believed the key to deciphering this code was the Temple of Solomon. He wrote extensively on the length measurements of the Temple and suggested it intersected time and dimension, serving as a prophetic and supernatural structure. The prisca sapentia framework of Newton suggests that the distance between the temple of Jerusalem and the capital city of any nation historically affecting the chronicles of Jerusalem would be supernaturally connected. This relationship would be significant with respect to units of time, expressing meaning in line with God’s divine plan as recorded in the word of his prophets
Many books have investigated whether Newton believed that an original pure knowledge existed. Some conclude that he did in fact search for it, but that is the whole of their investigation. A few have written that Newton actually discovered something and try to fit his existing research into a prisca sapientia of their own design, claiming his beliefs fit modern realms of philosophy or eastern religions, but these speculations are not upheld by the body of his work. Although Newton had solved riddles of space, time, gravity, light and invented mathematics to predict the motion of objects, this was not the priscia sapienta. Since the time of Newton, no one has revealed the true form and nature of the original knowledge, or from whence it came until now. For the first time in history, “Temple at the Center of Time” uncovers what Newton was looking for and, in so doing, proves that pivotal events in history are unquestionably connected in time and space to Jerusalem. Newton didn’t know it. The key was right in front of him.
Bill, I invited you to read the book “Temple at the center of time” by David Flynn. It has lots of scientific authenticity, please read it .
Hi again Bill,
You write:
>> “Seems we modern humans have been around longer than previously thought, maybe close to 300,000 years”.
Whether it took 300.000 years or more to get where we are today is not my argument, We’re a product of evolution trough genetic engineering the Information and Language Convention inherent to the DNA molecule, together with the insurmountable hurdle of Irreducible Complexity, have once more vindicated the necessity of a Creator God.
Eduardo
“God is the creator of the universe and that we are not the result of chance.”
Hi Eduardo,
You write in your last reply immediately above this reply:
“Language Convention inherent to the DNA molecule, together with the insurmountable hurdle of Irreducible Complexity, have once more vindicated the necessity of a Creator God.”
Many linguists have checked into DNA as a hidden language and found it is not true
I have already answered the ‘Irreducible Complexity’ theory in a reply to you way up in this line. There is no such thing, it was disproven many years ago. Below is the original reply:
The *‘Irreducible Complexity’* theory that M. Behe forwarded was disproven several years ago. Both the eye and the biological flagellum that he put forth as an examples were observed to evolve from other parts.
Added today:
He has recently distanced himself from his theory of IR and he is now starting to accept evolution. Goggle him and follow any of the hundreds of links to verify this to yourself.
twom
Hi Bill,
I will check more in to it (M. Behe), I’m waiting on your answer on my last replay about Sir Isaac Newton and the book I invited you to read, I know you will find very interesting.
Eduardo
Hi Eduardo,
I will look for the book at my library and used book store here.
The previews I have read so far about the book seem to think it tries to link various distances to magic foreknowledge. Numerology is not science. It is somewhat used in the Bible..i.e. 40 this, 40 that…7 is a perfect number…that kind of thing. There is no valid known evidence that any of this stuff is real.
Non of what I’ve seen so far relates to the real world. Why would a God do such a thing? 99.999 percent of the people in the whole world will never hear about it or even care if there is some kind numerology going on.
‘Precise knowledge’ is an empty phrase. Despite many, many books on subjects like this…there is nothing that can be called ‘real’ evidence ever found.
I will look for the book though.
twom
Oh, by the way, M. Behe is Michael Behe, he is a professor at a Pennsylvania University. He writes many creationist type books. Be aware that almost all of the science he tries to bring into his writing has been disproven.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the info, I’ll look into it, let me know if you find that book.
Eduardo
Hi bill,
I tough you would be interested in this article that came out on MSNBC/Technology & Science this morning:
6 signs that aliens might exist
With so many stars, alien life is probable
Shostak notes that there is no direct proof for any life beyond Earth, but the universe is home to a lot of stars. And as research over the past decade has shown, perhaps at least 50 percent of those stars harbor planets. Shostak estimates there are 1 trillion planets in the Milky Way alone. “Surely some of them have undergone what Earth has undergone and developed life, and eventually what we call sentient life,” he says. The argument, he notes, is simply one of probability. “If we are the only intelligent beings in the galaxy, or for that matter in the universe, then we are truly a miracle,” he says. This image from the Hubble Space Telescope shows a cluster of young stars in the Milky Way.
Water worlds abound in our solar system
Water is a key ingredient for life as we know it. And liquid water, it turns out, is fairly common in our local solar system. For example, evidence is mounting that liquid water may flow underneath the surface of Mars. Europa, a moon of Jupiter, appears to have a liquid ocean. So too might the Jovian moons Callisto and Ganymede. Saturn’s moons Titan and Enceladus, shown here, may be watery. Even Venus might have a bit of liquid water in its atmosphere. “There you already have seven other worlds that might have liquid water, just in our backyard. So that’s kind of encouraging news,” Shostak says.
Life evolved ‘quickly’ on Earth
Scientists estimate that planet Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. The earliest evidence for life comes from 3.4 billion-year-old mats of bacteria called stromatolites in Australia. Since even bacteria are biologically complex, scientists think they arose from life forms that got a foothold on Earth even earlier. “That suggests it wasn’t terribly improbable, the evolution of life, because it happened very quickly,” Shostak says. The caveat, of course, is that Earth could have won the evolutionary equivalent of the lottery, and no place else is quite so lucky.
Life thrives in extreme environments
Almost everywhere scientists go on Earth, they find life: the cold, dark depths of the oceans; snuggled up to piping-hot hydrothermal vents; buried under the Antarctic ice; and in South America’s parched Atacama Desert. “Life can adapt to really tough conditions and, of course, most of the universe is going to be filled with habitats that are tough,” Shostak says. For example, Mars is a harsh environment, but some of the microbes found on Earth, including the one shown here found deep in a mine, could survive beneath the surface of the Red Planet, he notes. These findings of so-called extremophiles have allowed scientists to scale back their list of requirements for extraterrestrial life. “We just say it has to have some liquid water, and maybe that’s it,” Shostak says.
E.T. might be calling from afar
Shostak and his colleagues at the SETI Institute frequently harness some of the world’s largest radio telescopes to home in on distant stars for a telltale signal of alien communications. Although their searches have raised a few alarms, the signals have been dismissed as human-caused interference, such as noise from a passing satellite. Contact remains elusive. Undaunted, the scientists keep searching. Meanwhile, a signal detected on Aug. 15, 1977, during a search with Ohio State University’s Big Ear Observatory, continues to pique interest because it has never been explained. “It was impressive enough to encourage the astronomer who found it to write ‘Wow!’ on the printout,” says Shostak. Follow-up experiments to detect it again, however, have failed. “You can say it was E.T. and then he went off the air. You may never know,” Shostak says. “But it is not science to say it was E.T.”
Some see evidence that ‘aliens’ have visited
Somewhere around half the people in the U.S. believe that aliens have already visited us. To back their claims, witnesses have presented snapshots of flying saucers and debris from crash landings. None of the evidence, however, convinces Shostak. Nor does he buy into theories that the world’s governments are coordinated and efficient enough to collectively keep what would be the world’s biggest secret. “That’s hard for me to believe,” he says. Such doubt does little to stop the tide of tourists coming to places such as Roswell, N.M., the site of a purported UFO crash more than 60 years ago. This fake alien at a museum is a commonly photographed attraction.
Hi Eduardo,
The following sentence from the story says it all for me.
“Somewhere around half the people in the U.S. believe that aliens have already visited us. To back their claims, witnesses have presented snapshots of flying saucers and debris from crash landings. None of the evidence, however, convinces Shostak. Nor does he buy into theories that the world’s governments are coordinated and efficient enough to collectively keep what would be the world’s biggest secret.”
There has never been irrefutable evidence of UFO’s. Yes our government is pretty sneaky, but I don’t believe they could keep a secret this big and for this long.
I’m still waiting for evidence I can trust.
I always found it strange that God supposedly gives us freewill on Earth so we have a choice. But once you get to Heaven you no longer HAVE freewill. Seems to me that would be a much bigger waste of time to create a bunch of heavenly robots, always happy and always praising for all eternity.
Thanks for the discussion on these threads.
It seems to me that the Scriptures tend to indicate that at creation God gave man the power of dominion and the power to choose. Everything that God gave to man was full of good choices (options) except for the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The result of Adam and Eve’s choice to eat of that tree was exactly what God said it was going to do to them; it will kill them if they ate of it. Since that choice, man has been in bondage to Death, and he does not have the power of “free will” to will (to choose) himself out from death’s power. The intent of the coming of Jesus Christ was to take away this sin and nullify this consequence of our original choice (yes, if you are a human, you are part of that choice. This is very hard for us independent Americans to understand) and save us from death and give us eternal life, back to the original intent of why God created us. Also, I hope that we know that we did not have any input as to what should be created at creation and why.
On a side note, those who do not believe in the accuracy of Genesis, one perfect man quoted from it. His name is JESUS
Now, if we mean “free will” as in fully independent from God and fully sovereign as God himself, then I agree with St. Augustine, Luther and Calvin that it does not exist. Biblically speaking, I submit that this very notion of ” free will” outside of the choices that God provided is at best satanic ( Isa 14:12-15).
If we call the God given power to choose” and the power to have dominion “free will” (which I don’t believe it is), then maybe we have a point as indicated on this blog and I would like to encourage everyone to exercise (or choose) faith towards our Creator who created all things good and choose the choices that He provides.
I believe the greatest sin or man’s ultimate sin was to choose the choice that God never gave them which was to choose to be like God and independent as God (Gen 3:2-4) because this choice falls short of the Glory of God (Rom 3:23). This is their motivation when they ate of the fruit; it wasn’t because they were hungry or
they wanted to die. That choice brought sind and death into our human history. Hint… hint…man has never been good at this free will stuff apart from God:).
Thanks again for the good discussions. My you all find the “Truth” of the reality of God in Jesus Christ who is God’s ultimate act of Mercy and Love towards man; ” Peace on Earth, goodwill to men”-Luke 2:14.
Hello mbh, thank you for writing.
Over the few years I have been writing this blog I have had some fascinating discussions with many good people and I have thoroughly enjoyed the ride.
I don’t know how much of my blog you have read. I have written much about the book of Genesis and the many myths found there. I have reason to believe, and have circumstantial evidence to back it up, that Adam and Eve probably never existed, the Noachian flood never happened, the Tower of Babel event never happened, and the Exodus never happened.
I don’t know at this point if you are an Old Earth Creationist or a Young Earth Creationist so I will just give the broad outline that science contributes to the argument about whether the Bible (Old Testament) is true or not, and whether the old myths hold truth.
The Earth is billions of years old (science says 4.5 billion).
All life on Earth has a common ancestor. In other words we can all (all forms of life, animal and vegetable) trace our first ancestor to bacteria.
Modern type humans (Homo-sapiens) first appeared about 200,000+- years ago.
All modern type humans can trace their history (DNA, bloodlines) back to Africa (Ethiopia and/or Namibia probably)
10,000 to 20,000 years ago humankind was spread all over the Earth, and populations were into the millions.
Almost all scientists worldwide accept the facts listed above. From these facts a few things relating to the Bible can be deduced.
The Biblical story of Adam and Eve is not true. Our first human ancestors did not appear 6,000 years ago in some magical garden in the Middle East. 6,000 years ago the Earth was full of humans. All females have been traced by DNA evidence to Africa about 160,000 years ago. All males have been traced the same way, to Africa about 60,000 years ago. We are not descendants of the Hebrew Gods magical manipulation of dirt and bones.
Right away this has repercussions in the Biblical myths…no Adam and Eve—no “Original Sin.” No “Original Sin” equals no need for Jesus. That whole death and “Blood Sacrifice” thing is kind of silly anyway. Sounds like a myth that ancient men would believe, not one an omniscient god would demand. I think Paul made up the story of original sin.
ALL the geological and archaeological evidence uncovered to date does not backup the flood myth. There are dozens (maybe hundreds) of website out there that list the hundreds of facts that science has uncovered that disprove this myth. There are civilizations that we know were existent when the flood was supposed to happen, and they show no archaeological evidence whatsoever of a catastrophic flood (China, Egypt, and Indus Valley), no writings either.
The Bible has Noah’s flood happening about 2300-2400 BC and the Tower of Babel happening a few hundred years after that. We’ll say about 2,000 BC. There were human populations and civilizations spread over the whole Earth at that time…you want to bet whether they each had their own languages?
This was historical time; in other words people were writing then and there are archaeological artifacts that attest to this.
Egypt had been a civilization for a few thousand years already and they had a language that was different from the Babylonians and the Judeans and the Chinese and the people of the Indus valley. We know that the Aborigines were in Australia about 40,000 to 50,000 years ago, I’ll bet they had at least a rudimentary language. WE know also that there were 10’s of thousands of people in England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Poland, in fact ALL over Europe and Asia, again I’ll bet you they weren’t speaking Hebrew or Egyptian, or Akkadian or Sumerian.
There are Jewish archaeologists who were born and live and work in Israel who are saying that the Exodus never happened*. These and other archaeologists have been looking for a hundred years, in the Sinai desert, for some proof of a million plus people wandering there for 40 years. Not a clue one. Archaeology tells us also that the stories about Joshua and all his conquests are probably not true because the artifacts are telling us that the cities were already uninhabited when Joshua was supposed to have destroyed them…all but one. *Google the name Ze’ev Herzog.
You write:
“On a side note, those who do not believe in the accuracy of Genesis, one perfect man quoted from it. His name is JESUS.”
Of course Jesus would know of Genesis, he was a teacher, a rabbi and he would know all of the stories from those around him and from temple…the man was an observant Jew and he was teaching the Jewish dogma. We have no evidence that he was literate and could read or write, but there was access to the Torah and Septuagint Bible (c. 300 BC) where he roamed.
You write:
“…falls short of the Glory of God”
Just exactly what is “the Glory of God?”
Peace
twom
I am a born again christian by the grace of God through Jesus Christ my lord. Now I have studied calvinism (belief in predestination without free-will) and arminianism(belief in free-will). After much study and prayer this is what the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ has shown me by his grace. Before the creation of man satan and some angels rebelled against God Almighty and were thrown out of Heaven never to be pardoned again. God never sent them a saviour to be saved and he was just to do so because he can do what he wants. Now Adam and Eve both were also created perfect but they rebelled against God Almighty. God in his grace predestined his only begotten son (THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD) to die on a cross for mankinds redemption. Jesus himself even though he was predestined to die from the foundation of the world bieng God in the flesh he still had the chance to back down because of his free will. Now keep in mind that mankind did not deserve salvation but damnation just like the fallen angels(demons) and satan and this is why they hate people that are born again and saved. Now I believe that God in his sovereignty elects people to “HEAR” the Gospel or to “HEAR” about the God of Israel before Christ. Now keep in mind that we don’t deserve salvation so either way those that are chosen to hear the WORD OF GOD they are priveledged and should tremble at thier priveledge. Even though God elects many to be able to hear the WORD OF GOD whether it be the “GOSPEL” after Christs resurrection or the “LAW” of the GOD of Israel before Christ(GOD) became incarnate. Now if you see it this way you can say that in these last days many people have been elected from the foundation of the world to hear the GOSPEL more than in any other generation but yet we have the free-will to reject, recieve and not obey or recieve and obey Christ by living in true holiness the power of his Holy Spirit. So to many of you that are reading this you are elect because you have heard the gospel many times in this generation but you have the free-will to accept and be holy or reject and be wicked (I’m not mentioning those that are in between that accept Christ’s redemption but don’t want to live holy lives by the power of his Spirit). To tell you the truth this generation has the greatest priveleges than all the generations before it because this generation has been elected to hear more about the Gospel than any other generation but remember this because of this we shall recieve much greater condemnation than any generation before us because of this privelege. Repent therefore and turn away from your sins and surrender your lives to Christ Jesus the Resurrection and the Life! I hope this may help many of you to understand God a little little little bit more because truthfully our mind cannot comprehend God and that’s why we that are truly born again by the Spirit of God and surrendered to Christ need that glorified resurrected body to understand God more!
Hi Anthony, thank you for writing.
The first thing I would like to say to you Anthony is use paragraphs. It is very hard to read such long unbroken strings of text, especially for us older readers with less than perfect eye-sight.
You write:
“I am a born again christian by the grace of God through Jesus Christ my lord. Now I have studied calvinism (belief in predestination without free-will) and arminianism(belief in free-will).”
Either one (free-will or not) works, as the Bible says God gives us both. Hard to figure out what He is really advocating…wouldn’t you agree?
You write:
“After much study and prayer this is what the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ has shown me by his grace. Before the creation of man satan and some angels rebelled against God Almighty and were thrown out of Heaven never to be pardoned again. God never sent them a saviour to be saved and he was just to do so because he can do what he wants.”
Don’t you think this is a silly story? Why on earth would someone rebel against a God that can just zap them out of existence, and is so powerful that no one could defeat Him…ever. If we were dealing with an intelligent God here He would just start over after fouling up so much in His first attempt at world building.
You write:
“Now Adam and Eve both were also created perfect but they rebelled against God Almighty. God in his grace predestined his only begotten son (THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD) to die on a cross for mankinds redemption.”
There is no Trinity; this lie was made up by the Catholics in the second or third century AD. There is NO Biblical support for this totally illogical myth. Adam and Eve never existed, mankind’s history has been traced by DNA and there was never a point where we had just 2 ancestors in the Middle East some 6000 years ago. This never happened. The original sin myth was made up by Paul in the First century AD. I’m sorry, but you are caught up in a ridiculous religious scenario that the church has used for centuries to fleece people.
You write:
“Jesus himself even though he was predestined to die from the foundation of the world bieng God in the flesh he still had the chance to back down because of his free will. Now keep in mind that mankind did not deserve salvation but damnation just like the fallen angels(demons) and satan and this is why they hate people that are born again and saved.”
I am going to quote something to you that has been floating around the internet for years, and it relates to what you have said above.
“So let me get this straight, the unending, all-powerful force of creation that hand-made the universe funneled himself into the body of a human fetus and then teleported the fetus into the uterus of a married virgin. He then spent 30 years on earth walking around doing basically nothing and then one day rearranged reality to set in motion events that would lead to his own death…effectively committing suicide. He does this because his death will, for some or other reason, clear humanity’s sin tally (which he, himself is keeping up in heaven). And then after his plans to get himself killed fall into place, he looks around and asks himself why he has abandoned himself? Is that the basic gist of it?”
The made up dogma of Jesus also being God makes absolutely no sense in relationship to the crucifixion. In one of the gospels Jesus cries out “My God why have you forsaken me” or words to that effect. In fact if you read the Bible with a critical eye, it is full of contradictions, lies and illogical stories…most of it dis-proven, but still people are fooled into believing it.
Remember sir this book of myths was written by goat herders in a time when people believed in magic and witches. We now know that neither of these things are true…and they NEVER were.
I’ll run some things by you and tell me what you think.
The flood of Noah never happened.
The Tower of Babel never happened.
The Exodus never happened.
The Gospels were not written by the listed authors.
Prayer is not answered.
God cannot defeat Iron Chariots.
The Pentateuch was not written by Moses.
The Christian Church, in the Dark Ages, killed as many as 3 million “witches” Now we realize there is no such thing.
Just a few things we have learned about the Hebrew God by honest research to find the truth. You sir have been fleeced, whether you believe it or not.
twom
There is no free will. Do say man has free will…glorifies man and not God.
If you take a look at Romans 7 and read through, Paul is telling his troubles with sin.
More specifically, take a look at Romans 7: 18:
“For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.”
You see? Paul is expressing his DESIRE but he cannot perform free will. His heart is totally depraved from Adam’s fall.
It’s biblical, so don’t be critical.
Hi Dan, thanks for writing.
The Bible says that we do and it says we do not…have free will. Don’t you think that is a little confusing?
I don’t see how Paul is having so much trouble, it’s actually pretty easy to not be a sinner, and Paul actually made up that thing about original sin. There was no Adam and Eve and snake in the garden…that is all Hebrew myth.
I’m critical of the Bible because so much of it is not true. It needs to come with a guide that tells you which is actual history and what is allegorical and what is myth. Instead men have had to study it for hundreds of years to separate the crap from the real (hint: most of it is not real).
If you do not follow science you are living in a dream world of 2000 to 3000 year old Hebrew and gentile myth…sorry.
twom
Again, I think you misinterpret what the Bible says. Never in the Bible does it say that we have no free will, you assume that when you see the words predetermined or predestined. All this means is that it was seen and accepted beforehand. God sees everything over all time, because He is separate from time. We see time like the pinch in an hourglass, while he sees time as a whole. We were always given a choice. Adam and Eve had a choice; eat of the tree or don’t. God wanted to test them and they failed. This is where our sinful nature comes from.
After Jesus died our choices radically changed. Now we have one choice that branches off to every other one: do we accept Jesus or not. If we do then we put our life and soul into his hands and let him guide us. Now this doesn’t mean that we lose our free will; we still have the choice to sin or not to. Just because God sometimes puts these choices in front of us doesn’t mean that we don’t have a say in the matter.
Hi Thomas, thanks for writing.
You write:
“Again, I think you misinterpret what the Bible says. Never in the Bible does it say that we have no free will, you assume that when you see the words predetermined or predestined. All this means is that it was seen and accepted beforehand. God sees everything over all time, because He is separate from time. We see time like the pinch in an hourglass, while he sees time as a whole.
I’m sorry ,but the quoted scripture above says to me that much of what was written about is saying “no free will” Predestination means you are destined to do what is said…no free will about it…the outcome is predicted.
You write:
“God wanted to test them and they failed. This is where our sinful nature comes from.”
Where does it say god wanted to test them? And remember what you said above: “God sees everything over all time, because He is separate from time.” He already knew what they would do.
No Adam and Eve=no original sin=no need for Jesus.
Paul invented the concept of “original sin”…he never meet with Jesus, he only saw him in a beam of light while traveling on the road. Hmmmm.
Romans 1 tells us we have free will. I can’t explain how I was saved. I don’t feel like I chose God. I wanted God, so maybe that’s how he saved me. I have a hard time believing that God would create people just to send them to hell. Now if death was just death, then I could believe in absolute total predestination. But in Romans 8:28 says “Those he foreknew he predestined…” For a while I thought the idea of God simply knowing who would choose him meant they were predestined was silly and a cop-out. But I finally read the word “foreknew” and that seems to make a lot of difference. He foreknew who would choose him, therefore he predestined them to be with him.
Hi April, thank you for writing.
What were you saved from?
The Bible is purely a man-made book, so it cannot be used to determine the truth of anything. It is full of conflicting myths and stories.
twom
All I have to say is YIKES!! You all have waaaaay too much time on your hands. I found this website because I am writing a college philosophy paper on the debate between free will and pre-determination. I was hoping to find some quotes from The Bible to help bring some evidence to back my paper up, but instead all I found was a bunch of people spouting their beliefs without anything to back up their claims besides their own opinions. RIDICULOUS.
Hot debate, hotter than sizzling bacon.
A lot to read, a lot of great and thoughtful posts… but I think the atheists won.
Hello Lioness,
Somehow I missed your reply when you sent it…I’m sorry.
Yeah, I think all in all the atheists won this small debate, although we probably didn’t change any minds. But, we keep up the good fight.
Thanks for reading and commenting,
twom
Bit late to this, but ironically, I had this discussion with a friend of mine earlier and came across Calvinism earlier. At first, it distraught me, but honestly, I don’t believe it.
First of all, let’s say some basics. God doesn’t sin. God CAN’T sin. Sin is ugly.
If God really did write everything and decide it, then that would be saying God lied to us and killed innocent people. In the bible, we’re told we’ll have no excuse when we stand before God. But wouldn’t that be an excuse? ‘Why did you sin? Why didn’t you turn to Jesus?’ Because you wouldn’t let me.
Secondly, we’re told God loves us. All of us. And God desires us all to come to Him (Timothy 2:4, Ezekiel 33:11). But how could that be if God chose who to save? Why wouldn’t He just make us all come to Him? That’d be like me throwing a party, wanting everyone to come, but only inviting two people. It makes no sense. I’ve also heard come Calvinists say that God allowed the fall of humanity to prove a point by having people burn in Hell because He wanted to demonstrate His power. But if He made us puppets, why would He need to demonstrate? Why not just have us worship Him all the time? Why make us fall? It serves NO point.
Third, if God can’t sin, then how could He write/program us to sin when it makes Him mad? That’d would again, be pointless. ‘I want you to do this, but I’m going to make you do this.’
Instead, I feel it’s more of a thing, where God knows everything. God knew what would happen before He even made us. ‘But why with all the problems would He make us then?’ Well, when you have kids, you know there will be heart break. You know it’s going to be hard. Sometimes, you’ll wish you never had them, but you still do. Why doesn’t the same apply for God?
Romans 8:29 says that ‘For those He FOREKNEW, He predestined. Those He predestined, He justified. Those He justified, He glorified.’ Foreknew. What does foreknew mean? Well, it means knowing before it happens. So those He foreknew…He knew they’d come to Him. And you can’t argue saying ‘yeah, well if God showed me He existed, I’d go to Him too, it’s not fair.’ Because I know people who do know God exists. They believe, yet they reject Him because they want to party or continue sleeping around or doing drugs. I think there comes a point in everyone’s life at least once where they kind of think ‘why am I here? What designed the world?’ And that’s God giving them the opening to come to Him. But rather, people instead are like ‘nah’ or they begin to believe, and get ridiculed and fall away. Or they just won’t believe.
So instead, Romans 8:29 suggests that God knew who would believe, who would actually come, so then He predestined them. For example, He would say ‘Abraham will listen to Me, so I’ll make him the father of the Jewish nation, and Moses will listen, so he’ll lead my people from Egypt. Oh, Jimmy? He’ll be a preacher or a missionary or an EMT to spread my word.’
And free will isn’t just a one time choice. You don’t come to God and magically get controlled and give up sinning or whatever. You still sin. And when you sin, The Holy Spirit inside says ‘this is wrong. You shouldn’t do this.’ It’s ultimately my choice, ‘Do I, or don’t I?’ But I argue that you can’t exactly just go sinning willy nilly either, you made a commitment to God, and the conscious will catch up to you. At some point you’ll fall because of your sin and realize ‘I screwed up, I’m sorry God.’ But God doesn’t force you to do what He wants. However, even when you disobey, He still uses it to make things work (Story of Jonah).
If you loved someone, sometimes we think ‘I’d make them love me back.’ However, wouldn’t that be empty? Sure, it might be fun for a little bit, but in the back of your head you’d know they were only there because you made them come to you. This is why God gave us a choice. God is real love. And real love doesn’t just force itself on you. Real love wants you to be happy. It’s like that saying where ‘if you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it’s meant to be.’
Now to the topic about if God really exists.
Look around you. Everything is made from matter. And scientists believe that matter can’t be created or destroyed. But how exactly did everything get here? What made it in the first place? You can’t get something from nothing.
And when that stuff appeared, then what put it all together? What made some of that matter animals, water, dirt, people, oxygen, clouds, planets, stars, etc? And for those people who believe we evolved from amoeba, then how did one amoeba because a man and another a female, while both working together to create babies? How come humans are the only creature that seems to be able to think, talk, imagine, and do things? I mean sure, dolphins supposedly mimic some of our behaviors, but do you really think that dolphins can think to themselves ‘My name is John. I’ll be a fisherman and catch fish for my family.’? If the world is so random, why are we the ones with superior intelligence?
Speaking of us, look at how complex our bodies. If our body temps change even a bit, we’d die. Our brain runs on chemicals that all work in balance, which if disrupted, stuff goes wrong. Our digestion system has bacteria inside it that should probably eat us inside out, but instead works for our bodies.
Some people believe we evolved from monkeys, but why are there still monkeys? Why didn’t they ALL evolve? If they didn’t all evolve, why did all the neanderthal men evolve? Why don’t we still have them running around (jokes aside about people we know).
Plus people sometimes say about how if we were a little closer or father away from the sun, we’d die off or never live. But I’ll take you one farther, according to evolution, we evolved to suit this planet and live. However, why didn’t we evolve to live on other planets? Using evolutionary logic, we only breath oxygen because we evolved here. But what if we lived somewhere else, wouldn’t we breath that instead? Why out of all the galaxies and universes and planets out there, do we live here?
And that I answer with one word. God.
Hi,
Just a couple of things…
1. Definition of sin: “to miss the mark” or “to make a serious mistake”. Can God sin or make a mistake? NO! If He could, He would not be Sovereign over all.
But according to church doctrine, God created a “perfect” being, satan, who decided out of his own ‘free-will’ to rebel against God. So, God intended one thing, but against His will, He got something else. IF this is true, then, simply put: GOD FAILED!!!
Rom 9:20 But, O man, who are you, to make answer against God? May the thing which is made say to him who made it, Why did you make me so?
Rom 9:21 Or has not the potter the right to make out of one part of his earth a vessel for honour, and out of another a vessel for shame?
God does not need permission or advice from man to accomplish His will and desires! He is God!
2. Can anyone decide out of his OWN “free will” to stop sinning and follow Jesus? Not according to the Word of God:
Jer 13:23 Is it possible for the skin of the Ethiopian to be changed, or the markings on the leopard? Then it might be possible for you to do good, who have been trained to do evil.
John 6:44a No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me *draws him, …
The word ‘draws’ used here, literally means to DRAG. And it does not depend on the power of him who is being dragged, but rather of Him who is dragging!
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’
Isa 45:24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
God does not need to FORCE anyone into doing something that He desires or requests. He simply changes the persons heart/desires and that person will WILLINGLY follow Him!
God’s desire is for every man to be saved. Does God leave it over to man/satan/???? to decide what He will receive in the end, or does He take care of it Himself?
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past those things which were not done, saying, My counsel shall rise; and, I will do all My desire;
Isa 46:11b … Yes, I have spoken; yes, I will cause it to come; I have formed; yes, I will do it.
You said: “I’ve also heard some Calvinists say that God allowed the fall of humanity to prove a point by having people burn in Hell because He wanted to demonstrate His power.”
WHAT??? Prove a point to?? Man?
No offense to anyone, but if the above quote makes sense to you, you should seriously question your ability to reason and your knowledge of God! IN NO WAY DOES IT EVEN ALMOST MAKE SENSE!!!
Rom 11:32 For God has let them all go against his orders, SO THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY ON THEM ALL.
I have a 6 year old daughter. She is very strong-willed and takes a lot of chances. Sometimes she stretches my nerves and patience to breaking point. Nonetheless, I love her to death and beyond! How then, can I ever even consider torturing her (for even a second!) whenever she is disobedient? People who abuse their children does not deserve (humanly speaking) to have kids. They deserve to be punished for their CRIMES! The law (man-made) does not tolerate this kind of behavior from anyone!
Yet, “believers” ascribe this LOVELESS, MERCILESS, SICKENING type of behavior to God! It is “JUST”, they say, not thinking for themselves what utter nonsense they are uttering! Unbelievers deserve this kind of punishment! This means that humans possess more love and mercy than God? In what universe?
You wrote: “God is real love. And real love doesn’t just force itself on you. Real love wants you to be happy”. Are you implying that people who are burned in hell forever, will be happy in that condition, since God loves them and wants them to be happy? If not, then how can God be ‘real love’? Or is He powerless to save even the greatest sinner?
Anyways, till later!
Maybe there is a couple of things to think about in this comment. That is of course, IF you can think…
Hello again EMTWB141, thanks for writing.
You write:
“Look around you. Everything is made from matter. And scientists believe that matter can’t be created or destroyed. But how exactly did everything get here? What made it in the first place? You can’t get something from nothing.”
Where did God come from? Who or what made Him/Her? You don’t get it both ways. If all things that exist have to have a creator…then God would also. It will be a long time before humans can answer these questions. Right now the scientific evidence for a Christian God is leaning to the no-God side.
You write:
“And when that stuff appeared, then what put it all together? What made some of that matter animals, water, dirt, people, oxygen, clouds, planets, stars, etc? And for those people who believe we evolved from amoeba, then how did one amoeba because a man and another a female, while both working together to create babies?
We actually have a pretty good understanding of how most stuff came about. You may have heard the late Carl Sagan say that we are made of the stuff of stars. That is true, as we know that earth was made at the expense of a stars death, and everything on earth came about from star dust…the detritus from stars exploding. All the elements found on earth are found in the stars and between. All that is necessary for life on earth is found everywhere in space. All it took was time…billions of years.
You write:
“How come humans are the only creature that seems to be able to think, talk, imagine, and do things? I mean sure, dolphins supposedly mimic some of our behaviors, but do you really think that dolphins can think to themselves ‘My name is John. I’ll be a fisherman and catch fish for my family.’? If the world is so random, why are we the ones with superior intelligence?”
We happen to be the most intelligent species; we are also the last remaining Homo species. We are the lucky ones who were born into a better time and taxonomic group.
You write:
“Speaking of us, look at how complex our bodies. If our body temps change even a bit, we’d die. Our brain runs on chemicals that all work in balance, which if disrupted, stuff goes wrong. Our digestion system has bacteria inside it that should probably eat us inside out, but instead works for our bodies.”
Remember that the earth has been evolving for 4.7 billion years and we have evolved to fit into the world that was already here. Despite all the poorly executed parts in our bodies, it is good enough for us to live and thrive mostly. Body temps are variable to a degree…a few degrees either way is possible, if we evolved that way. Look at the life that has been found around the undersea vents in our oceans…they live in a hydrogen sulfide and VERY high heat environment.
You write:
“Some people believe we evolved from monkeys, but why are there still monkeys? Why didn’t they ALL evolve? If they didn’t all evolve, why did all the Neanderthal men evolve? Why don’t we still have them running around (jokes aside about people we know).”
Actually we have found out just recently that up to 4% of European and some Asian people have some Neanderthal blood. They are ancestral to them in a small amount. They are probably descendent from Homo-Heidelbergensis with a little Homo-Neanderthalensis thrown in there. The bit about the monkeys still here is a real sign that you don’t understand the science behind all of this. We are related to some primates, but are not direct descendents…We share a common ancestor or two.
You write:
“Plus people sometimes say about how if we were a little closer or father away from the sun, we’d die off or never live.”
“In the past 30 years, however, our knowledge of life in extreme environments has exploded. Scientists have found microbes in nuclear reactors, microbes that love acid, microbes that swim in boiling-hot water. Whole ecosystems have been discovered around deep sea vents where sunlight never reaches and the emerging vent-water is hot enough to melt lead. The Goldilocks Zone is bigger than we thought.”
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/02oct_goldilocks/
You write:
“But I’ll take you one farther, according to evolution, we evolved to suit this planet and live. However, why didn’t we evolve to live on other planets? Using evolutionary logic, we only breathe oxygen because we evolved here. But what if we lived somewhere else, wouldn’t we breathe that instead? Why out of all the galaxies and universes and planets out there, do we live here?”
Why would a God make a universe 90 billion light years around and place one planet in there with life on it? The distance to other stars and possible life supporting planets is so immense that humans cannot get there in their lifetime. What’s the use?
I think at some point in the future we will find that there IS intelligent life in other star systems in the universe and there will be no sign of a Jesus or earthly Christian God hanging around. Christianity is a religious myth, just as all other religions on earth are. There is absolutely no way it can be proven…you have to take it all on faith of course. 🙂
What do you have to lose if you believe that there is a God and that he has sent his son Jesus Christ to die for you? What do you stand to lose? I weep for some people sometimes.
You have nothing to lose. Rather, you’ll gain life everlasting.
On the contrary, you’ll have everything to lose if indeed at the end of the day, there is a God because he’d punish you for not believing him even amidst his works, signs, teachings and preachings via his ministers.
What do you gain in your current stance of “no-God”, maybe a freedom to commit what “Christians” call “sin” without bothering even though sometimes your conscience tries to correct you? What do you gain seriously? The stars, the moons, the planets, the seas, all were made by God and he made these things all for his own pleasure.
Please, don’t let Satan deceive you for that’s his purpose here on Earth. Surrender your life to God and he’d begin to reveal himself to you in ways you cannot imagine. You may visit;
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html
God bless you.
Hello michael, thank you for writing.
Your argument sounds suspiciously like Pascal’s wager
Pascal’s wager:
“If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).”
“Pascal’s Wager is a weak argument based on a false assumption. It fails to convince anyone with enough insight to see that you not only have to believe in God, but you must believe in the right God and believe the right things about that God to truly be safe. The odds are against us. Worrying about going to hell based on this argument is like worrying about not winning the lottery after only purchasing a single ticket. Because you could try to believe in all Gods and all religions, but most religions won’t allow such trickery and would condemn such actions.”
“There have been several objections to the wager: that a person cannot simply will himself to believe something that is evidently false to him; that the wager would apply as much to belief in the wrong God as it would to disbelief in all gods, leaving the the believer in any particular god in the same situation as the atheist or agnostic; that God would not reward belief in him based solely on hedging one’s bets; and so on.”
(1) If a perfectly loving God were to exist, then he would not permit the occurrence of any unjustifiable suffering.
(2) But unjustifiable suffering does occur.
(3) Therefore, a perfectly loving God does not exist.
You write:
“What do you gain in your current stance of “no-God”, maybe a freedom to commit what “Christians” call “sin” without bothering even though sometimes your conscience tries to correct you? What do you gain seriously?”
I have the freedom to not worry that some creep is looking over my shoulder and judging me by some 2000 year old goat herder mentality. Seriously I am a good person…actually I am better than a very large bunch of Christians I have heard of who strongly profess Christian morality. I’m a family man who doesn’t drink or do drugs, I don’t cheat on or beat my wife and we have 5 wonderful children who are all doing well and six beautiful grandchildren. I am a happy person and I have been an atheist since I was 13 years old…now 67.
Your God…along with every other god is non-existent, and the earth and humanity would be better off if religion (as is currently practiced) were gone.
The same thing was said some years ago when John Lennon said in a matter of time, people would forget about Jesus but have people forgotten about a man who died for their sins some 2000 years ago, the answer is no but Lennon is dead and Jesus still lives. But what of the inferior Greek mythology, people have quickly forgotten them. the word of me, God has changed peoples like you before, God can still help you.
God Bless You.
And concerning the issue of freewill, let’s look at what it means first, freewill is the ability to make choices on your own, that will affect the outcome of something without being cajoled or forced to do such.
So, has the creator given his creations freewill? The answer is Yes. All called “great men” in the bible had a choice to either heed the call or reject it. Moses did, Jeremiah did, Abraham did, Balaam did, even the Apostles. None of them were forced to obey. And God called them and they obeyed for he knew before the conception of the world that that they would heed his call. Some actually still disobeyed like Jehoshaphat. Did God know he’d disobey? You bet he did. But he had a choice that’s the important thing. Salvation has been offered to us all and God knows those that will obey and those that will disobey but that has not stopped him from offering us salvation. Deut 30:19, John 3:16. But we all have a set time. when that time has passed, we cannot be receive this gift of his anymore.
Hello again Michael, thank you for your concern.
You write:
“So, has the creator given his creations freewill? The answer is Yes. All called “great men” in the bible had a choice to either heed the call or reject it. Moses did, Jeremiah did, Abraham did, Balaam did, even the Apostles.”
So which part of the “free will” controversy do you believe? The Bible says both…we do and we don’t. However the Bible does have many many other discrepancies and free will is just one of them.
Oh, by the way, Moses and Abraham are probably mythical personages.
You write:
“Salvation has been offered to us all and God knows those that will obey and those that will disobey but that has not stopped him from offering us salvation. Deut 30:19, John 3:16. But we all have a set time. When that time has passed, we cannot be receive this gift of his anymore.”
You know there are things you should explore in the secular world. Science is quickly proving much of the Christian Bible wrong. We now know there was never an Adam and Eve as portrayed in the Bible…the scientific evidence behind this claim is overwhelming. Modern type humans have been roaming the earth for 200,000 years and DNA, archaeological, and paleontology, etc. evidence has proven this beyond doubt. If there was no Adam and Eve, there was never a “original sin” and therefore no need for a Jesus person to “die” for our sins…no Flood or Exodus either.
The whole “blood sacrifice” thing is sooo Bronze Age goat herder mentality; I’m surprised that today’s modern people can talk about it with a straight face This dogma the Christians (among others) espouse is so silly and so wrong.
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I’ve read some of discussions here. I’m not agree to what nulifer reacted and said about ouija board game. It is very dangerous to tell someone to use it. As a christian, we should not tempt someone even if its a nonbeliever to do things which we know is not good. Also if someone ask us certain things, we should give him/her answers with gentle words..if we don’t know or have no knowledge of a certain question then just say.. ”I have no knowledge about it”. Everything is worthy of an answer as much as our belief is concerned.
As for what mr. Dave asked abt God hardened pharoah’s heart not to free israelites..hmm I’m not a bible scholar or someone expert of the scriptures, my own understanding is this.. In reading exodus, the reason why God hardened pharoah’s heart is that He wants pharoah’s household and the egyptians to know that He is the true God since egyptians that time worship false gods.. Isis for example. But God gave pharoah chances, He gave him the chance..it was in a later part when God hardened pharoah’s heart for a reason as what I’ve said, for people in egypt, egyptians or esraelites to know that He is God..who gives plaques..to reveal His power..so that’s the reason why He hardened pharoahs heart. If He didn’t hardened pharoahs heart and decided to let israel go..then the remaining plaques which is to reveal God’s power, is not necessary to perform or to be use (i can’t think of a ryt word for that)
As for the Free-will argument.. In my own understanding as what I’ve understand reading the bible (i may be wrong) freewill is a free to choose either good or bad(evil). We have the chance to choose. As what pharoah did. He chose not to obey what God said through moses. Any choices we make will have an effect(consequence, result).
If u have any answers, just ask me. Thanks. (:
I mean..If u have any questions, u can ask me if u want.
I do respect what Atheist believes..as for them to respect what christians also believes.
For christian: Does God really gave us human the freewill? Or is it the result of eating the fruit which adam and eve ate..that God said they should not eat..because when they eat it, they will surely die..and know whats good and bad..pls clarify. Thanks.
Hi cfm, thanks for your reply.
You seem like a gentle soul so I will ask you a question before I truly respond to you.
Please realize that I wrote this over 4 years ago and my knowledge and thinking have advanced a little.
Do you really want to get into a real discussion on the Christian religion…even beyond the question of free-will??
My friend is non-deminonational Christian but he smokes weed.
Free Will is making the choice to believe (and live) and not believe (and die). I shall live and not die!
Dream on my friend. You only consolation is that once you die you will never know that there is no afterlife…sorry
If God is omniscient, then he knows the future, which means the future is predetermined and there is no free will. If the future is not predetermined, then free will exists, but that also means God is not omniscient. Therefore, why call him God? The point being, omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive.
I agree 100% Free will equals no God
Im not sure whether God and Jesus supposedly gave us “free” “will” or not. But if he did not and would have saw this coming, his planet would not be in the turmoil its in today. So many ladies on the internet this machine and the world are continually making mistakes with the power of free will, like to voluntarily insult men by calling their compliments a socalled crime of harassment? What? and touching is “assault”? What? lolwut. Too many people have the freedom of choice today and are making all the wrong choices, making compliments a crime was one of those wrong choices. God does slay people in thunderstorms he sends. God does kill people in tornadoes propably as a way to visit upon them the evil of their doings. So God does slay people with hot and cold weather. Why they are afraid to say this machine called a computer is beyond me. Why they dont want to say God killed someone in a hurricane in the same sentence is absurd. Its the same as saying, if I have AIDS that Lucifer didnt give it to me.
Whats the point? If Im God and Im naive enough to create Adam And Eve and tell them not to eat that fruit on that one particular fruit tree. Why would I give them a choice if I know they are going to make the wrong choice resulting in millions of births and deaths of humans who cannot live peacefully with one another all because of one mistake I made? Just like if Im God and Im gullible to think that Lucifer wont stab me in the back, why create Satan so he can destroy the two humans I made? Wheres the logic in that? Why create a planet and woods in it if everyone has to destroy and desecrate it for money? And let homo sapiens overpollute it? If I was God or Jesus I would have told myself or my Father dont waste your time making those who will put knives in your back or in our backs and saved ourselves an eternity of heartache and sorrow.
AMEN….
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