Science, Church, Death by Religion, Islam, Catholics

I welcome back a debating opponent (friendly) We have been in discussion off and on for a couple years.  He is Catholic and I generally come down hard on them (fundamentalists also)

Hi quickbeamoffangorn,

I didn’t know you were gone, but welcome back.  I have missed you and your intelligent replies. I hope all is well with you and yours. 🙂

You write:
“Just remember that the church gave more financial aid and social support to science than any other and like all other institutions combined over the past 6 centuries.
And you wouldn’t even have the scientific method without Franciscan monk Roger Bacon & Bishop Robert Grosseteste of Lincoln.”

I know and understand that the Catholic Church has supported science for many years and that they have many people of the cloth involved in science. I commend them for that (not that my commendation would mean anything to them).  I would however dispute that they have given more than anyone else combined, unless you mean just other religious sects combined.

You write:
“Your wasting your time attempting to undermind the Bible, when its the interpretation of the Christian Fundementalist that’s mistaken.”

I agree wholeheartedly that the Fundamentalists interpretation of a literal Bible is wrong.  I am really not trying to undermine the Bible…all I do is point out all the discrepancies and misinformation that is already there. It undermines its own authority without my help.  Just found one today…seems Mark and John can’t agree on what day Jesus died…did he die on Passover or on the day of preparation for Passover?

You write:
“That’s a kinard with not a shread of evidence.”  Your reply to my assertion that many thousands or millions of Christians were killing each other in the early days.

“As someone from the British Isles you should know how good your people have been historically at spinning history. Being Irish-American I know these things ;>)”

Going to these sites below will fill you in on the early days of Christian wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion
Don’t worry that they’re from Wikipedia; they are right on this, and the facts can be checked against other websites…

Religion today is every bit as violent and dangerous as it was in the Dark and Middle-Ages. Within the last fifteen to twenty years the following religious conflicts have killed millions of people.

Palestine–Jews vs. Muslims
Balkans-Orthodox Serbians vs. Catholic Croatians & Orthodox Serbians vs. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims
Northern Ireland-Protestants vs. Catholic
Kashmir-Muslims vs. Hindus
Sudan-Muslims vs. Christians and Animists
Nigeria-Muslims vs. Christians
Ethiopia and Eritrea-Muslims vs. Christians
Sri-Lanka-Sinhalese Buddhists vs. Tamil Hindus
Indonesia-Muslims vs. Timorese Christians
Caucuses-Russian Orthodox vs. Chechen Muslims and Muslim Azerbaijanis vs. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians
India vs. Pakistan-Muslim vs. Hindu-they have already fought 3 wars against each other and now both of these countries have nuclear weapons.
This list above is taken from a earlier post of mine.

I am not from the British Isles…my ancestors were.  I was born and live in the States.

You write:
“The Black Legend still lives and it seems to fit your predisposed outlook. The population of all of Europe in 650 A.D. was 6 million. The church didn’t even have an army at the time.”

I don’t think they needed an army seeing as how they were their own source of laws and always had the local gendarmes to order about.

Population Estimates (in millions) at specified times 500-1450

AREA 500 650 1000 1340 1450

1. Greece/Balkans        5       3       5       6      4.5

1. Italy                 4       2.5     5       10     7.3

1. Spain/Portugal        4       3.5     7       9      7

Total – South 13 9       17 25 19

France/Low countries  5       3       6       19     12

1. British Isles         0.5     0.5     2       5      3

1. Germany/Scandinavia   3.5     2       4       11.5   7.3

Total – West/Central 9 5.5     12 35.5 22.5

1. 5       3

—Russia                             6       8      6

—Poland/Lithuania                   2       3      2

1. Hungary               0.5     0.5     1.5     2      1.5

Total -East 5.5 3.5     9.5 13 9.3

TOTAL EUROPE 27.5 18 38.5 73.5 50

Sorry the list did not translate well, just pick the year on top by position and follow down by position (left to right, column one, two, three, four, five)

The information above is taken from Josiah C. Russell, “Population in Europe:, in Carlo M. Cipolla, ed., The Fontana Economic History of Europe, Vol. I: The Middle Ages, (Glasgow : Collins/Fontana, 1972), pp 25-71  http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.html

You write:
“I’d also think a lot more about how Islam is going to control your intellectual property since most of secular western Europe has lost the literal will to live. Within 35 years there will not be any British, French, Spanish, German, Italian Russia or Polish left in the world. Your breading your selves into no-existence.”

Yes that is a real possibility. England and Ireland are already headed down that road.  Seems there will be Heresy laws on the books soon. Russia is a little more problematical…I don’t see them falling for the Muslim shtick anytime soon.  The actual problem is that the Europeans are not breeding and the Muslims are reproducing in very large numbers.  In the varied countries they live in they will be able to put their own candidates in political offices before long. In England they already are able to influence local and some national laws (i.e. heresy)

You write:
“But your evil arch enemy the Catholic church has already move to the global south where they still believe in life and we’ll rebuild western civilization AGAIN. And they’ll be someone like you in 300 years blaming the Catholic church on the fall of modern civilization.”

I don’t consider the Catholic Church my arch enemy…I pretty much blame them all for the modern day problems.  At the present time I consider Islam the NO.1 arch enemy of the whole world. We are probably seeing the King of the North and the King of the South lining up for the next 10 to 20 years. If that happens, as it almost seems sure to, once again religion will be responsible for millions/billions of deaths.

Will not blame just the Catholic Church…But all religions in general.

I’ve already taken the purple pill.  🙂

Good to “talk” to you again qboa.

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