More Evidence Against Noah’s Flood

Floods do not form mountains, but rather erode them away. Walter T. Brown, In the Beginning, 1986

All Biblical dates that I have seen for Noah’s flood fall within a period of the earth’s history known to historians the world over, as the “Bronze Age” This is a period in our collective history in which we humans discovered and used the metals copper and tin to make Bronze.

It started around 3500-3000 BCE in the Middle Eastern and African areas, and lasted until we learned how to make Iron (about 1200 BCE, probably in Africa) and thus entered the ‘Iron Age’ This time span also happens to encompass the beginning of writing and keeping records…so we have written records of what was going on at these times; in other words this was ‘historical’ time.

In those times the impetus for the development of the Bronze technology was war. Bronze was used in most weapons of the time, such as spear points, arrowheads, swords, axes, helmets, armor, and shields. Production of these items, in the quantities needed for the armies of the time, required much infrastructure and many people devoted to the making of them. This was not a fly-by-night operation

According to recorded history there were six well-established cultures or ‘civilizations’ at the time of Noah’s Flood. They were: Mesopotamia (Sumerian), Indus Valley, Egypt, the Minoan, the ‘Holy Land’ area, and China. Archaeological records such as ruins of cities, tools, pottery, skeletal remains, weapons, and other artifacts support the written records that survive. These records all show that humans and civilizations existed in almost all parts of the world at the time of the flood, and that there was a worldwide population of possibly 100 million people.

The civilizations of the time were using Bronze tools and had the potters wheel, looms to made textiles, had invented the plow and domesticated draft animals, they also traded with peoples hundreds of miles away. In other words a cultural revolution was going on. Man was changing from herders and hunter-gatherers to settled agriculture and cities that could support the new technologies. An infrastructure was developing. The written record and Archaeology support this view. Records of the Sumerian/Mesopotamian civilization show a continuous ongoing culture from about 3350 BCE to a period well past the Noachian flood.

Mesopotamia had great prosperity and expansion during the flood period under Sargon the Great and his grandson Naram-Sin. The area was a thriving center of culture and advancing civilization. There is no evidence for a cataclysmic flood wiping out the entire culture and infrastructure.

Egyptian civilization is probably familiar to most of us. Egypt’s dynastic history started with the uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt by King Menes, around 3100 BCE. The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’

China has a reasonably accurate history starting around 3000 BCE. According to texts from a Chinese book called “Shu King” and verified by archaeological records, China was undergoing a prosperous period around 2400 to 2200 BCE during the early Yaou Dynasty. They have no record of a cataclysmic flood interrupting their whole civilization and destroying the infrastructure of the country.

The Indus valley civilization has a well-known history dating back to perhaps 3100 BCE. By 2500 BCE there were two major cities, Mohendaro (or Mohenjo-Daro) and Harrapa, which rivaled Egypt and Mesopotamia in population and technologies. This great Civilization also encompassed maybe 100 smaller cities, towns, and villages, and didn’t fall until about 1500 BCE. They have no record of a worldwide civilization-destroying flood.

The Minoan civilization was probably as old as Egypt. Based on the Island of Crete, this civilization grew quickly and was highly advanced by 2500 BCE. By the middle of the second millennium it had an alphabet, used bronze tools, had pottery, textiles, advanced architecture, and had established cities around the Islands. It continued to grow and was a center for trade and culture until about the mid-1400’s BCE  when it was suddenly destroyed by the violent eruption of the Thera volcano. There has been no evidence unearthed from this civilization that shows a flood destroying their whole infrastructure, at any time in their existence.

We do not have any archaeological evidence from the Japanese culture, Native American culture, or the Black tribes of Africa that indicate a world wide flood at any time in their existence. Think about this. How could all these civilizations, tribes, and world-wide culture along with sooo many people suddenly disappear from the earth and then suddenly reappear all over the world and bring the same culture, arts, pottery design, architecture, writing, language, and artifacts that was unique to them and their part of the world?

The entire history of the world does not show…any…of the known civilizations to have a large gap in their chronology or technologies as a result of being destroyed by a worldwide flood. It is not plausible that they were destroyed, and within a few short years, reappeared in their original numbers and with the same abilities and infrastructure. All the inventions and culture of the people of the time…would have had to be reinvented by new inhabitants…that did not happen. It just didn’t happen people. cat

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About the word of me
Interested in family and friends,grandchildren, photography, darkrooms, history, archaeology, scuba diving, computers, software, fast cars, journalism, writing, travel, ecology, news, science, and probably most other subjects you could think of. Did I mention family and friends?? I require iced tea or cold brewed coffee and a internet connection to be fully functional. Sometimes there are just so many words in my head they spill out.

141 Responses to More Evidence Against Noah’s Flood

  1. Daniel Ginther says:

    Try doing the math Einstein. If there were 100 million people on the earth at the time of Noah’s flood, the human population would need the entire galaxy to live in.
    Next time you start showing the world how intelligent you are, do some simple math. Mathematics do not lie.

    • Brian Murray says:

      Where is your math to prove that we would take up the entire galaxy? I would like to see this equation. Make sure you include things like infant mortality rates before modern science, diseases like the plagues in medevil europe, and mass extinctions due to climate change. Since your so smart make sure you show your work so “us simple folk” can understand.

      • Anonymous says:

        I try to stay objective in these debates and try to stay away from words like “nut job”. There are some farely inteligent Christian scientist geologist that seem to do the same. In regards to the “Math” I think that the argument is something like this. By what science has indicate the poputation has double through out history every ?? years. From what I understand this is not argued by science. So if that is true, baring a cataclismic event, our population would be a number almost greater than any number we have given a name to. There is some farely good arguments on both sides. I don’t think any of these people are “idiots”. Comes down to faith. Always has.

    • lol wtf. Today we have 7 billion people, stupid. XD

    • Anonymous says:

      It’s unfortunate that most Christians believe in and teach a global flood, when actually Scripture doesn’t teach that. It does teach of a large flood, but not global. They argue that the phrase “whole earth” means the global, however this phrase is used several times in scripture and yet refers to a local area. Earth in the Hebrew means land. The word Earth didn’t even refer to the planet until around 1400AD. Many years after the bible was completed.

      Flavius Josephus, who wrote the Antiquities of the Jews (and clearly knew Hebrew language far better than the Christians of today) speaks of people who fled up into the mountains to survive the flood. When Noah and his family landed there, his sons led them down from the mountain to rebuild their nations. We read this confirmation in Genesis 10, which says of Noah’s sons and their sons “5Of these were the islands of the nations divided in their lands, everyone after his language, after their families, in their nations.” Are we to believe that Noah’s sons all spoke different languages!? Of course not! They DIVIDED the nations of people who survived the great flood of that land.

      Much more where that came from for those who want to study what the Bible actually says rather than accept the teachings of a corrupt church.

      Godspeed everyone.

      • Anonymous says:

        Scripture teaches that it was a flood that covered up to 15 cubits over the mountains and killed all of manking in genesis 7:20-21. If it was local why would noah have to build an ark and attempt to save two of evey specie of animal, they woukd have survived on their own and noah could have just traveled by foot to a neighboring land id it was local. It doesnt add up, the noah flood story never happend in reality

      • Anonymous says:

        Your just back peddling. God people have thought it was global and then when archaeologist found things existed during the flood then Bible people started back peddling and saying it was only local. The nature of a Christian is to want to believe in God and to lie to themselves or make up things to continue believing.

    • Anonymous says:

      ACCORDING TO CHRISTIANS ( CHRISTIAN BIBLE) , THE WORLD COMPLETELY WAS SANK UNDER WATER . ACCORDING TO THEM , ALL CREATURES OF THE WORLD ENTERED NOAH’S SHIP. ACCORDING TO THEM , NOAH BUILT A SHIP WHICH WAS NOT MUCH HUGE . ACCORDING TO THEM , THE SHIP FLOATED ON THE SURFACE OF WATER , CARRYING ALL THESE CREATURES FOR MANY WEEKS.

      BUT ALL THESE DESCRIPTIONS ARE UNBELIEVABLE AND NOT PROPORTIONATE TO LOGIC AND NOT COMPROMISING WITH EXPERIMENTS . HISTORICAL AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL STUDIES CANNOT PROVE THAT THERE WAS SUCH A WORLDWIDE FLOOD AT THAT TIME PERIOD , FOR EG: AT THOSE TIMES THERE WERE SOME OTHER CIVILIZATIONS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD WHICH WERE NOT RUINED . AND THE SIZE OF THE SHIP MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE CANNOT ACCOMMODATE ALL THE CREATURES OF THE WORLD, THAT TOO IN PAIRS . AND WE CAN ASSUME THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF COLLECTING ALL THE CREATURES IN PAIRS . AND WE CAN ALSO ASSUME THE IMPRACTICABILITY OF A SITUATION WHERE ALL THESE CREATURES EATING AND MATING AND FIGHTING AND ANSWERING TO NATURES’S CALL IN A SMALL AREA !!!

      BUT ACCORDING TO ISLAM , THE INCIDENT IS RELIABLE . ISLAM DOES NOT SAY THAT ALL THE WORLD WAS SANK UNDER WATER . ISLAM DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE SIZE OF NOAH’S ARCH . ISLAM DOES NOT SAY THAT ALL THE CREATURES OF THE WORLD ENTERED NOAH’S ARCH .

      SO, ACCORDING TO ISLAM , THERE WAS SURELY A FLOOD, BUT IT WAS NOT A UNIVERSAL FLOOD , BUT IT WAS ONLY A GREAT FLOOD WHICH AFFECTED A BIG AREA SURROUNDED TO NOAH’S SOCIETY . AND ACCORDING TO ISLAM , NOT ALL THE CREATURES WERE CARRIED IN TO THE SHIP , BUT IT COULD BE THEIR PET ANIMALS OR ANY SPECIAL CREATURES WHICH WERE SEEN ON THAT AREA . ACCORDING TO ISLAM , MANY BELIEVERS AND THEIR PAIRS WERE BOARDED IN TO THE SHIP AND WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THE IMPORTANCE WAS GIVEN TO HUMANS , NOT TO THE CREATURES .

      SO, FROM ALL THESE , WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS THE ISLAMIC VERSION WHICH IS MORE LOGICAL AND HENCE RELIABLE . EVEN THE LANDING PLACE OF THE SHIP IN THE ISLAMIC VERSION, WHICH IS MOUNT JUDI, IS CORRECT .

  2. thewordofme says:

    Hi Daniel Ginther,

    It’s nice to get along with people…don’t you think?

    Science is relating that modern man has been operating on this earth about 100,000 to 200,000 years. We began to get really sophisticated about 50,000 years ago.

    You do the math. If we (man/woman) started out with 8 people in 2300 BCE, and are now 6.5 billion…how does that work out.

    Math does not lie, but the figures you put into your equation have to be correct.

    Have a nice day.

  3. Lexington Smythe says:

    Fortunately, Daniel, religious nutjobs have been slaughtering people left and right throughout history, helping to keep the population down and to sustain their own delusional, ridiculous belief system. You’re not one of those religious nutjobs, are you?

  4. thewordofme says:

    Smythe,

    I don’t think he’s here anymore…he screwed up so bad on his reply. twom

  5. Cornelis says:

    As far as I am informed, the oldest history book of China, the Book of Documents, refers to a global flood. The waters covered the Mountains. Nüwa (cf. Noah) came to create new beings to fill the earth.

  6. thewordofme says:

    Hi Cornelis, Thanks for writing.

    I refer you to this page on talkorigens.
    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG202_2.html

    The Hihking, a Chinese classic, tells a story of a flood very like the Biblical story. The family of Fuhi, including his wife, three sons, and three daughters, survived aboard a boat a great flood which covered the entire land. After the flood, they repopulated the world. An ancient temple in China shows Fuhi’s boat in raging waters with dolphins swimming around it and a dove flying toward it.

    Most of the flood stories I have seen, including Noah’s flood, are probably copied from the oldest one out there…Gilgamesh. It pre-dates Noah by about a 1000 years or so.

    The fact remains there is no evidence in the geological record of a ‘world-wide’ flood. Plenty of evidence for local floods all around the world, but at different times.

    Also the genetic evidence…DNA, Etc. is not backing up the story…there has never been a time on earth where our genetics were limited to 8 people. This is provable to scientists who know this stuff, and it’s the same technology that is used to convict or release felons…i.e. allowable in a court of law.

    It’s time for Christian types to let go of the old Genesis myths. They are really disproven, but some people just refuse to accept it.

    Kind of like the old Catholic Church hanging in there with the belief that the sun revolved around the earth for hundreds of years after it was proven otherwise…the really bad part was the church was teaching children this crud. Kind of like Christians and home schooling today. 🙂

  7. Damon says:

    I guess we’ll all find out what happened in the end.

    God bless.

  8. Damon says:

    Actually, I think that it is the other way around (“some people just refuse to accept it”). I just traveled out west recently on a mission trip. While we were at Glacier National Park, surrounded by the awesome huge mountains and crystal clear streams, I thought: “How could someone think that this all happened by chance?” Really, it takes more faith to believe the evolution theory than it does God’s Word. And I am afraid that I don’t understand what you are saying when you talk about Genesis being “disproven.” There is no valid evidence supporting that Genesis is false where there is a far greater amount of evidence disproving evolution. The best evidence lies in the Bible and is found by scientists who do believe what is true, that the Great Flood did happen!

    And about the DNA being limited to 8 people, sure, you can say what you believe, but where is this scientist’s evidence? Did he call up Father Time and ask him?

    Again, God bless.

    • Anonymous says:

      Lets try to enlighten you.

      First. DNA.

      We can determine the amount of “genetic” information by variation. Since a “family” has close genetic information, if indeed the world was populated by 8 people, the genetic variance would be very low. Also, geneticists use what is called mtDNA or midochondrial DNA. This is passed only by your maternal lineage. So in essence we can trace various lines of lineage and genetic variance back. Cross reference with samples from across the globe and we can tell quite eaisly the genetic history of homosaipen saipen. This is how we know that roughly over 35k years ago we, as a species, almost went extinct, dwindling down to several thousand pairs.

      See this is the problem with ignorance. You want to claim knowledge, but how can you speak intelligably about something you know nothing about? Lol. evolution does not require faith. It doesn’t even require for you to agree for it to be true. It just is.

    • Maxxed Out says:

      Read your comment then read it again and then go and study the history of christianity and the authenticity of the bible and then and only then should you make comments about where the best evidence lies. The flood like the bible is a myth. From 9000 B.C. to the present, the only rocks in northern Mesopotamia which were made by rivers or oceans are along the river banks. This indicates that the only flooding which has affected northern Mesopotamia in the last 11,000 years is from the overflow of rivers.The very close agreement of three independent, seasonally based, non-radiometric indicators of annual layers makes the age of the ice sheet on Greenland indisputably 11,000 years old, and the agreement of two of those indicators adds another 100,000 years. Close examination shows that the ice core is composed of fresh water from top to bottom. There is not a single layer of ice in it or in the ground under it composed of seawater nor any silt deposits such as a flood would leave. Not a single layer gives evidence of having melted and refrozen. This means no ocean water has ever stood over it or under it. Consequently, this ice core falsifies the idea that there was a global flood in the time of Noah.

      Read the rest at http://biologos.org/blog/the-flood-not-global-barely-local-mostly-theological-I

  9. thewordofme says:

    Hi Damon, thanks for writing

    What it takes to believe in evolution is a mind that can reason and think logically. Your pastor or minister or rabbi has been lying to you…and the evidence keeps mounting and mounting.

    There is no valid evidence supporting Noah’s flood some 4300 years ago. there is no valid evidence supporting the Tower of Babel about 125-150 years later. There is absolutely no valid evidence for Adam and Eve beginning the human race about 6000 or so years ago. Those three things alone disqualify the Old Testament from being anything near a historical record.

    You are either, and I mean this in a nice way, naturally ignorant, or willfully ignorant. There is so much evidence out there in the world today that totally disputes the Bible and it’s view of the world.

    Do you think all these millions of scientists in the world are in some kind of evil cabal to discredit Christianity? Do you think it’s an evil plot of Satan to brings these facts to light?

    Look around the real world sometime, it’s an amazing place, and it doesn’t need religion or God to operate.

    Peace

  10. futbolero says:

    I read this…and I come to disagree with you in a more sophisticated and intellectual manner. Let’s try this. the Old Testament is a largely metaphoric Book. The Great Flood may not have been as great as it was initially imagine but a flood is still possible. If you notice…all civilizations were built upon rivers? Rivers rise and fall depending how much rain there was. The Old Testament does not explicity say that these civilizations were wiped out, because how would Moses be in Egypt? If we could, if possible took a weather survey, look at the precipitation, and look at silk deposits, we can see any type of floods which are occasional in ancient cities. Also floods bring, unfortunately diseases, especially in a time period in which there were no modern medicine for anything. So naturally people die, just as in the same way Hurricane Katrina did so. Numerical descrepencies are an in issue in a book largely metaphorical and anamorphoric (referring to Old Testament)?

  11. thewordofme says:

    Hi futbolero, thanks for writing.

    The Bible says in Genesis 6:17: “And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.” NKJV

    So the Bible is asserting that God Himself said he would flood the world and everything on it by means of a ‘world-wide’ flood.

    We know that this never happened. So what is one to believe? Is God a liar? Or could it be that the writer (Moses) is lying or making up myth?

    The flood supposedly happened about 2200 to 2400 BC. These dates are not from me, they are made by the religious establishment. This puts the flood into historical times, as people have been writing things down on clay, stone or Papyrus since 3500 BC. Moses supposedly led the Jews out of Egypt about 1420 BC or so…depending on which sect you believe in.

    The Egyptians never recorded or experienced the Hebrew/ Noah’s flood, as I mentioned in the blog. So yeah…the Noachian flood is a non-event, myth, tall tale, made up story.

    It’s what I have been saying for 40 years…now the evidence is there.

    Makes you wonder what else is made up, doesn’t it?

  12. Dave says:

    Damon wrote:

    >surrounded by the awesome huge mountains and crystal clear streams, I thought: “How could someone think that this all happened by chance?”,

    So, when you see ugly things, or terrible things, do you say, “How could someone think this happened by design?”

    No, of course you don’t.

    >Really, it takes more faith to believe the evolution theory than it does God’s Word.There is no valid evidence supporting that Genesis is falsethere is a far greater amount of evidence disproving evolution<

    Oh, so you admit there is at least SOME evidence supporting evolution.

    Question for you, Damon – let’s pretend we could prove to your satisfaction that evolution is real, could show you examples of how it’s working right now, and come up with, say, all the missing bones leading from the earliest mammals to full-blown humans. Would you give up your belief in the truthfulness of the bible?

  13. Dave says:

    futbolero wrote:

    >the Old Testament is a largely metaphoric Book<

    But which parts? The bible doesn’t announce: “Next up, a metaphor.”

    Therefore, if we can’t trust all of it to be a literal rendering of a god’s thoughts, then we can’t trust any of it literally.

    Do you think the NT is without metaphor? Do you believe any of it literally? Do you think the story of the resurrection is a metaphor, too?

    When we realize there is no god – and there was never anyone named Jesus as told in the Xian bible – everything that happens in this world begins to make sense.

  14. thewordofme says:

    Bravo David

  15. Daniel Ginther says:

    It’s me again. Sorry it took so long to reply to any of you.
    Today there are approx 6.5 billion people on earth, that is a fact.
    If there were 100 million people on earth 3500 years ago when Noah’s flood happened, the population of earth would be well above 6.5 billion people.
    Here is this math for all you non-believers:
    Fact: On the average every family has 2.5 children:
    If you start with Noah and his three sons and their wives and do the math, you’ll see how we know have approx. 6.5 billion people here on earth.
    I just love how Gods word is so precise and accurate.
    I can easily disprove evolution with any one on earth but a lot of people just do not want to believe in God, it’s generally not their fault, it’s usually the way they are raised.
    I really want all of you reading this to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the lord, you have so much to lose if you don’t.

    God bless

    • Maxxed Out says:

      Dear Daniel Ginther

      This is some of the full knowledge of your lord:

      EXODUS
      15 Whoever strikes father or mother shall be put to death.
      16 Whoever kidnaps a person, whether that person has been sold or is still held in possession, shall be put to death.
      17 Whoever curses father or mother shall be put to death.

      18 When individuals quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or fist so that the injured party, though not dead, is confined to bed, 19 but recovers and walks around outside with the help of a staff, then the assailant shall be free of liability, except to pay for the loss of time, and to arrange for full recovery.

      20 When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

      THANKS BUT NO THANKS…….you know what you can do with your lord.

  16. thewordofme says:

    Hi Daniel Ginther, thanks for writing back.

    You might go this site from the US census bureau: http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html

    The numbers I used were from some other population of earth guesses and admittedly they seem high. The same people were estimating total earth population since humans first appeared at over 30 billion. Of course they are using the fact that modern humans first appeared 200,000 years ago.

    The infant mortality rate for early/ancient humans was very high (50% or more) though. Some scientists think that high numbers of ancient couple were really hard pressed to replace their own self’s.

    Then there was the population bottleneck that DNA evidence has shown humans to have gone through 140,000 and 60,000 years ago. Go here for data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck

    The population math (2.5 Children, etc.) you are talking about is only valid in the last two hundred years, or less.

    See, the thing is that God, Yahweh, Elohim, Jehovah, El etc’s, word is really not precise. The words that the Hebrews and Paul wrote in the Bible do contradict each other occasionally and much of the book is just old ancient myths and allegory that the Jews passed down to very gullible people. They want God to be true, so they pretend He is.

    The history of the Hebrew people does not show any divine intervention at all…just stories…no back up.

    Evolution is not disprovable, because it is fact. The only way to disprove fact is to lie…and creationists are doing that big time. They grasp at straws.

    Peace to you 🙂

  17. Keith Arnott says:

    thewordofme:

    Re: Your reply to Danial Ginther (03/09/08)

    ‘The population math (2.5 Children, etc.) you are talking about is only valid in the last two hundred years, or less’

    Yes, you are absolutely right.

    I’ve heard figures of 2.5 and above being thrown around by people to justify post diluvian population growth and spread a number of times in the past. It works in theory but then falls apart when you juxtapose it with known historical population growth trends.

    As an example; the population of the UK remained fairly constant at around 5 million (or slightly less) from 1000 AD all the way up to about 1750 AD when the industrial revolution kick started a massive population spike that ultimately brought us to the current figure of just over 65 million.

    The reality is that, without experiencing huge one-off events like the industrial revolution, populations in the bronze age and all the way up to the late iron age, tended to grow very slowly indeed , if at all, over fairly long periods of time.

  18. thewordofme says:

    Hi Keith Arnott, thank you for writing.

    Thank you for agreeing with me… and the actual facts…so many of the people that reply here just don’t want to do the homework on their beliefs about Christianity and other religions.

    The internet now has sooo much information about the science behind evolution and the real history of our world and I think the believers are afraid to get into it because they unconsciously know their beliefs will go down the drain.

    And of course there is the population bottlenecks that can be tracked by DNA. We can almost tell how many people survived them. And It’s not possible for us to be descendants of 2 or 6 people…again the DNA says this. All the people of religion can do is ignore the evidence…they can’t disprove it.

    The more I research…the harder my disbelief grows. I don’t think a really rational person can dispute all the evidence out there. The believers accept all the other science out in the world…but when it comes to their Bible, stand back…no science can shake their belief in that fairy-tale.

    We are seeing some intelligence in some religions though. The Catholics now accept that evolution is probably true, and that Noah’s Flood probably never happened. Some other ‘Mainline” protestants are saying that they accept evolution. It’s just the evangelical fundamentalists(people that now control the Republican Party) that can’t seem to understand…trouble is they are growing and advancing their cause by lying and stealth.
    Lying for God…the end justifies the means I guess.

    Again, thanks for your response and good day to you.
    twom

  19. Rafael says:

    As a Christian, your atheistic views and dogmatic snobbery about them is offensive to read, the fact is that you don’t know – you are only conjecturing based on what you think you know and have been taught. You are no better off in your belief system than anyone else, so your high horse judgmental attitude is a put off; no different than any other fanatic, so get over yourselves.

    That said, I like the scientific approach and take the evidence presented here seriously. As a critical thinker, I correlate between opposing views and take such opposite views as presented here with my own beliefs and research them out to further gain insight. I know that no conclusive answer will be had until Judgment Day, so I don’t get into this “know it all” game with people. From what I have ascertained, a local flood in the Mesopotamian area some where between 3000 BC and 2300 BC is quite possible, and God’s Word to Noah written by Moses could very well have been in the context of that area as far as Noah need to know. There are also interpretation and time gaps from historical accounts that can account for minor discrepancies when trying to account for events thousands of years after the fact. So you trying to to pin “disproof” by variations of interpretation and context, just shows your atheistic bias – a dogmatic desire to “Not Believe in God.” So don’t make the mistake of excluding yourselves from being part of a sect as well, as offensive as that may be to join the rest of “us” in darkness figuring things out as best we can. Restricting the Flood to this local area also takes care of the only 8 people spawning humanity again “disproof” idea you present.

    Another point, is that I’m currently researching the aftermath and tribal dispersal of the people listed in Genesis 7-10, this historically bears out. So it is unlikely that one event didn’t occur while the subsequent events did. The fact that this probably was a local flood and beared out factually from there, doesn’t seem to be explored here. I think that shows a bias and not an actual pursuit of knowledge. You are too happy to gloat “see, there is no God” and “see, you Christians are stupid” for any serious critique of your own views to be part of this information.

    Suit yourselves, but I’ll take this information with a grain of salt and add it to the rest in my research, it does help and thanks for the research. And I’m as appalled by so-called Christian theorists that take no time to actually add any scientific research to their theories and likewise present a bias view. Besides that, I know there is a God and He’s My Father – if you don’t that’s your choice, but don’t get up on a high horse and deny things you really don’t know based on perception of finite knowledge.

    • Jimbobsquarepants says:

      I like your response to this 🙂 i dont know what i am in terms of religious beliefs and all that. i dont know that much about it to attack anyone with my know it all opinions. But i did go to a Catholic school for a year and even tho i am not that religious,can i just point out maybe people shouldnt take the Bible as ‘fact’ as isnt it the new testement? which means its been te written? everyone knows the game chinese wispers and how things can be changed very easily. Also there are many variations of holy books out there. So to prove a story in one to be false is a bit silly? no? of coarse they wont follow total truth. They are ancient and been re written many times!!! ok . just thought i would add that for all the haters out there. Thanks,neutral religion, Jim.

  20. thewordofme says:

    Hi Rafael, thanks for writing.

    Go to the latest post…top of page click on the “Home’ tab.

  21. Dave says:

    Rafael wrote:

    > As a critical thinker,Restricting the Flood to this local area also takes care of the only 8 people spawning humanity again “disproof” idea you present.<

    In comments above Rafael’s, the writer thinks only Noah and his family survived. Not Rafael – he KNOWS the Flood was limited in scope and that his god was intentionally withholding information from Moses.

    So who do I believe, Rafael? You, with your book of fairy tales full of absurdities and contradictions – you, who claims to know the secret language of the bible, and thinks that when your book states your god drowned the world that it only included southern Europe?

    You, my friend, are going to Hell for disbelieving what your god tells you to believe.

  22. thewordofme says:

    Hi Dave, thank for your comment.

    You might want to go to the front / home page and follow Rafaels comments there. 🙂

  23. Rafael says:

    Dave – Ha ha , the atheist believes in God now, I did my job.

    “In comments above Rafael’s, the writer thinks only Noah and his family survived. Not Rafael – he KNOWS the Flood was limited in scope and that his god was intentionally withholding information from Moses.”

    He’s your God too Dave, you’re just too prideful to admit it, “thinks only Noah and his family survived” and you make no point with that your passage makes no sense, but you avoid the points about your belief system being just another Religion, because you can’t address it. That’s the biggest point you did make. And God can do what He likes Dave that’s what you have the problem with, He’s your superior.

    So what do you believe Dave? That’s my question to you, you know what I believe because I just stated it, you on the other hand want to avoid the fact that you way of thinking is just another belief system no better than any other. Your books of fairy tales and observations from finite minds rule your world, Dave, you can’t think out of that box to save your eternal life. All because you are too much of a cry baby to admit that there’s a Higher Order of Deity, boo hoo Dave.

    Facts are, you are not my friend, you don’t know anything about the Word of God that you like to think you are mocking, and if you don’t change your way of thinking, you are the one who’s going to burning in Hell, and that is not funny at all and if you do get there you well in no way shape or form be laughing about it you fool. The ridiculous thing about you egghead atheists is that you rather burn in Hell forever in exchange for the ego trip of thinking your way of thinking is the end all be all for your time on Earth. Tell me whose the dumb one? And go ahead and lie about it if you need that to make you feel better, too.

  24. Rafael says:

    So wordofme, have you commented on my statements and actually delved into questioning your own position with intellectual honesty or was that just a honeypot to have me post my views so you could standoffishly mock them with your God hating buddies?

  25. David says:

    Different Dave Raf, but I’ll play. First of all I’m not an atheist I’m agnostic because I believe it to be foolish for either side to claim they know everything. Also, to parade hell in front of men who in your world will endure eternal torment seems to be quite the Anti-Christ position no?

    Now, on the basis of my positions is a fundamental issue of finding reason and not simply reason but an overlying common goodness with which we can transcend our current human state. This means that I must question that a racial group of 8 people will go on to create new racial groups and a 6 billion plus population in a matter of a few thousand years. Also, Yahweh specifically says in Genesis 6 I believe that he will wipe out the entire earth, therefore it is not metaphorical as you claimed in earlier post.

    Then, the common moral man must question the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God of love/justice that can end off an entire world save one small family of a racial group that he consistently favors. Also, Rafael have you read through the Psalms? If you have, then I am sure that you are aware of the fact that your God claims to enjoy dashing out infants brains against the rocks? These particular infants were of Babylonian descent but of course any Bible scholar would know these were not the only infants bled dry from Yahweh’s vengeance. Genocides occurred under his watch as did a massacre of a “peaceful and unsuspecting” town according to the Bible in Judges 18. So instead of flagellating the unbelievers, I think it best to weight what you truly believe.

    My reasoning for this is simple. If we follow a God whose actions are quite common, petty jealousy, murder, and rampant destruction, then tell me how can humanity become something more than its current state? Also, consider that meek and benevolent Jesus will return as any dictator establishing an earthly realm and will stain the earth with bloodshed. Once again a heavenly King performing and earthly King’s common action. Curious to hear your thoughts Rafael as I was once in the Christian boat which I found led to a destination of rationalizations, immoralities, and weakening self-deceit.

    Long comment I know, but I felt each statement made was truthful and helpful.

    -David

  26. Rafael says:

    OK David we are not playing anything but I’ll respond to your points.

    “Also, to parade hell in front of men who in your world will endure eternal torment seems to be quite the Anti-Christ position no?”

    That doesn’t mean anything. What are you referring to? And “seems to be quite the Anti-Christ” according to what? The whole going to Hell thing was brought up by the guy I was responding to, i was just responding to that. Curious how you skip that and just start assigning blame on me for his initial bringing up of the subject. That is what I mean by God hating bias, as soon as someone brings in a God centered perspective it’s just as much baseless bashing as can be mustered.

    So the whole 8 people gave birth to 6 billion thing you keep trying to hold as absolute canon is just a rouse, it’s a straw man to try to say your debunking of God is legitimate. You don’t know you weren’t there, you don’t know the context of what was said and whether God was referring to a local area. Through thousands of years of interpretation and the fact that a historical flood did happen in the area that seems very likely the event in question, you can conclude that the interpretation was a local context. Which takes care of your 8 people equals 6 billion farce. The lack of this kind of reasoning being applied is exactly what gives sway to the idea that this isn’t a real pursuit of knowledge but simply another attempt to pass off a religious belief as legitimate, ignoring any contrary evidence.

    So again, as far as the waring factions and bloodshed you have to take the context of what was happening at the time into review. People war all the time for various reasons and children die. I don’t see you promoting the dissolution of the USA because it kills children in military actions. But yet references to God asking for such things in a context of war for what ever reasons that are unknown to you, seems to legitimize a disbelief in God for you. So again your bias that you don’t want to believe in God takes precedent in your conclusions. You come to that conclusion first, then you look for some supporting validation such as this. But you don’t apply that same rationale to other entities such as the USA because your bias doesn’t include that.

    Next your judgment of God is invalid, you are not above God to judge Him, He is though above you to Judge you. So if you refuse to accept His life raft, then you are the loser – suit yourself. Not that the godless are doing any better in the bloodshed department, but there again your bias isn’t against the godless it’s against God and the godly, so you only include what bloodshed will have to take place to clean out the Earth of it’s wickedness as being wrong. Jesus is the rightful King of the Earth and Heaven, when He takes His thrown from the ones who are temporally sitting on it, it is going to Rightful. Your lack of support for this is of no consequence for anyone except yourself. The fact that God is God and you are not is at the heart of your problem. This is talked about through out the Bible as man’s problem and you are illustrating that not refuting it with what you state.

  27. Dave says:

    1)

    >you egghead atheistsNext your judgment of God is invalid, you are not above God to judge Him, He is though above you to Judge youyou don’t know the context of what was said and whether God was referring to a local area<

    So now you’re onto that pathetic argument – "It’s out of context." Only when it suites your twisted purposes, Rafael.

    So must everything in your bible must be taken in context? Then enlighten us with the context necessary to understand this: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

    How much context does that take? What is it you don’t understand about that sentence that requires you to make further study of your bible?

    Or would you admit that it’s obvious what that command means on it’s face. Then how is it YOU get to decide what needs context, and what doesn’t?

    Like the fairy book you think you believe in, you’ve twisted yourself up in absurd and contradictory beliefs. You better pray your god is an egghead, otherwise the two of you are in big trouble, particularly you, because your subversive claim that YOU know what the bible means is going to send you to hell.

  28. thewordofme says:

    Sorry Rafael and Dave I just had to get in a small thing here.

    You write to Dave:
    “So again, as far as the waring factions and bloodshed you have to take the context of what was happening at the time into review. People war all the time for various reasons and children die. I don’t see you promoting the dissolution of the USA because it kills children in military actions. But yet references to God asking for such things in a context of war for what ever reasons that are unknown to you, seems to legitimize a disbelief in God for you.”

    The Christian God (and Muhammad also if I recall correctly) both called for us mere mortals to go out and actively seek out and kill men, women, and children and run through with sword pregnant women and bash the skulls of children against the wall in a real personal in your face manner. At least the US does not seek out the women and children, just the combatants. I know we miss the mark often, but at least we try.
    This is NOT a loving god …or one I would like to follow.

  29. Dave says:

    I’m not sure what’s wrong here – my comments are completely garbled. I’ll try again another time.

  30. Shane says:

    First off, fundamentalist Christians need to get off their belief that the Bible is literal. Much of it has literal meanings have been disproven.

    The great flood, the Earth being 6 – 8 thousand years old, ect.

    But this does not mean that many of the events in the Bible did not happen, and this does not mean that Christianity (or any other religion) is false. It just shows that you should real the Bible and get the message of it. And if it fundamentalists that will not let go that are hurting the spread of their religions because they are easily disproven, instead of spreading the message of God.

  31. thewordofme says:

    Hi Shane, thanks for writing,

    I agree with you and I disagree with you.

    The Bible we know is literal in some small matters…who was king at such and such time…that kind of thing, but in the really big things…its all wrong

    Old ground here, but to reiterate:

    There was no universal world-wide flood.
    There was no Tower of Babel
    There was no Adam and Eve.

    All of these things can be proven with circumstantial evidence. The same kind of evidence used to send people to the gas chamber or electric chair for murder.

    If Adam and Eve never existed….there was no original sin / fall from grace.

    If Adam and Eve never existed….then Paul made up the story of original sin.

    If Adam and Eve never existed….then there was no need for a Jesus to redeem our ‘sins’

    If Adam and Eve never existed….there is no need to redeem our ‘sins’

    If Adam and Eve never existed…there is no need for the church.

    If Adam and Eve never existed…there really is no God…its all made up.

    Just the above mentioned BIG untruths in the Bible completely destroy its authority and credibility and means it is not a document that can be trusted. There are other untruths to be found there as well.

  32. Frizzy says:

    Just curious where you are getting your information.

    “The Bible we know is literal in some small matters…who was king at such and such time…that kind of thing, but in the really big things…its all wrong.”

    It’s not just about the kings where the Bible is right. The whole Biblical history of Israel from Jesus right up to Abraham has been archeologically and historically (from external sources) proven quite accurate. So what reason is there to believe that the rest of it is not?

    “All of these things can be proven with circumstantial evidence: There was no universal world-wide flood. There was no Tower of Babel. There was no Adam and Eve.”

    I am greatly interested in what this circumstantial evidence is for each of these 3 statements being true. Of course it would nice if you could provide some direct evidence also to corroborate the circumstantial, especially considering that there is evidence that each of those statements is false.

  33. Dave says:

    >The whole Biblical history of Israel from Jesus right up to Abraham has been archeologically and historically (from external sources) proven quite accurate.So what reason is there to believe that the rest of it is not?<

    Should I believe the dead walked the streets of Jerusalem, as stated in the Bible – where’s the history for that, Frizzy, other than in your bible? If I can’t believe that – do you? – then what can I believe, on faith?

    Why should I believe any of what’s in a bible, other than what can be verified independently?

    That you can write there is evidence for a historical Jesus, for the flood, for Adam and Eve makes me, frankly, embarrassed for you.

    • xwing says:

      An excerpt from 1984…

      I’m hungry.
      Let’s make some more coffee.
      The water’s cold.
      There’s no oil in it.
      That’s strange. I thought it was full.
      They say that time heals all things
      They say you can always forget
      But the smiles and the tears
      across the years
      they twist my heartstrings yet.
      She’s beautiful.
      She’s a meter across the hips. Easily.
      It’s her style of beauty.
      The future is hers.
      We are the dead.
      We are the dead.
      You are the dead.

      ‘the dead’ Is referring to the unknowing, profane, the vulgar, the unworthy.

      • Dave Wyman says:

        A resurrected thread!

        Xwing has pulled a quote, not from the book, “1984,” but from the transcription of a script of “1984.”

        I have no idea what the purpose of the quote is here. Does xwing mean that the dead wandering around Jerusalem were not saints, but “unknowing, profane, the vulgar, the unworthy”?

        Or does xwing mean that “the dead” are metaphorical, which of course is what the rest of the Bible is?

  34. thewordofme says:

    Hi Frizzy, thanks for your reply.
    You write:
    “It’s not just about the kings where the Bible is right. The whole Biblical history of Israel from Jesus right up to Abraham has been archeologically and historically (from external sources) proven quite accurate. So what reason is there to believe that the rest of it is not?”

    Did you mean from Abraham right up to Jesus? Well the Old Testament has Abraham coming from “Ur of the Chaldeans” about a thousand years before the city was controlled by the Chaldeans. It also has Abraham rescuing Lot from the city of Dan about 300 years before the city was named that. At the time of Lot and Abraham the city of Dan was called Laish. There is also about a 70 year discrepancy in Abraham’s father’s (Terah) death and Abrahams leaving Haran. This and other evidence is indicative of Moses not actually writing the Pentateuch and for it having been finally put to papyrus about 700-400BC, long after Moses died around 1473 or so. Things like these are quickly eroding the authority and purported infallibility of the Bible.

    This information is available in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Wikipedia, and many other sites on the web. You have to assemble it from different sources sometimes, but it is easy to find. Try googling: Lot, Abraham, Ur, Chaldeans, Mesopotamia, Dan, Laish, Chaldean’s, Terah, Haran (or Harran). I must find at least 2 unrelated sources of information on the subject before I start to use it. I am using secular scientific sources not religious evangelical type sites.

    Some other search terms I have used in assembling parts of the blog:
    Adam and Eve, Africa, African tribes, archaeology, architecture, armies, BCE, bronze, bronze age, cataclysmic, China, civilization, copper, Crete, culture, Egypt, Euphrates, flood, Harappa, history, Holy Land, India, Indus valley civilization, infrastructure, iron, iron age, Japan, languages, looms, Mesopotamia, Minoan, Mohendaro, native Americans, Noah, Noah’s Ark, Noah’s flood, pottery, pre-historic world, pyramids, religion, Sargon the Great, step pyramid, Sumerian, technologies, textiles, Thera, Tigris, tin, Tower of Babel, trade routes, volcano, War, worldwide, world languages.

    You write:
    “I am greatly interested in what this circumstantial evidence is for each of these 3 statements being true. Of course it would nice if you could provide some direct evidence also to corroborate the circumstantial, especially considering that there is evidence that each of those statements is false.”

    The specific evidence against the ‘Flood’ is everywhere, all over the web. The Catholic Church advised its members in 1908 to not consider the flood story legitimate. Scientists started doubting the flood in the 1600’s. I suggest you go to talkorigins.org and follow ‘Flood’ links. The real evidence against a Universal Flood is overwhelming. And remember that Egypt who is right next door to ‘Floodland’ has no written or archaeological record of this happening.

    The Tower of Babel is tied into the Flood story by timing, as it came so close after the Deluge. Also I will say that Adam and Eve are tied in here in a way.

    The Flood is posited by many religious scholars to have happened about 2400 to 2200 BC and the Tower of Babel about 100 to 200 years after the Flood, and Adam and Eve about 4200 to 4000 BC.

    Worldwide Flood (2400-2200BC) a non-event…too much real scientific evidence against it.

    Tower of Babel…(2300-2000BC) MILLIONS of humans were spread all over the world at the time this supposedly happened, they were there both before a supposed flood, and immediately thereafter…no evidence of a cultural or archaeological rift. These people were not just grunting at each other, they were talking, and I’ll bet you dollars to donuts it wasn’t the same language in North and South America and Egypt or Syria, or China and Australia. Remember that this was a time in history when people around the Mediterranean and India and China were literate, and their writing that we have records of do not match each other in any way.

    Adam and Eve (4200-4000BC) the evidence that humans (Homo-sapiens) were roaming the earth as far back as 190,000 to 200,000 years ago is again overwhelming, and by 4000BC there were millions of them.

    The evidence for a race of almost humans (Homo Neanderthalis) is also overwhelming. (Where do Neanderthals fit in with God’s plan of redemption?) The evidence that tool using Hominids were roaming the earth over 500,000 years ago is pretty strong also. Google: Hominids, Lucy, Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, cavemen, cave art, Venus figurines, Clovis points, Solutrian people, Neanderthal. Pre-historic archaeology.

    Where does all this leave Adam and Eve? Another non-event I would guess. Side note…look up Ethiopia, strong evidence that the human race originated there.

    Al this stuff I have brought up is real, it is not a product of mine or anyone else’s imagination, nor is it Satan trying to steal your soul or something. 🙂

    Now, the biggest thing. If Adam and Eve did not exist…there was no fall from grace, there was no Original Sin, and no need for Jesus to redeem our imaginary “sins.” Paul just made all that up to make humans need the church to resolve their ‘perpetual sin status’

    If you can show me where I am scientifically wrong in any of this…I will consider your evidence and recant as needed. I do not consider evidence from people with a Doctorate of Divinity as scientists. Those that happen to have a real doctorate in one of the sciences in addition to a DD degree must have published peer reviewed papers in their science field that are pertinent to the discussion.

    Oh, I almost forgot. DNA evidence is showing that there is no blood record of the human race from two people four thousand or so years ago…the DNA story is waaay different than the Bible story. This is the stuff used to send murderers to the gas chamber…I trust it, so does society.

  35. Mark says:

    @thewordofme and the other rationalists have done a great job. Keep up the good work.

  36. thewordofme says:

    Hi Mark, thanks for writing.

    Thank you sir…appreciate the kudos.

    Don’t be a stranger.

    twom

  37. Jack says:

    You keep mentioning DNA evidence. You may want to read a very interesting book titled The Language of God, written by an Evangelical Christian man who was in charge of the human genome project. I’m sure some of his thoughts may offend some Evangelicals – but probably not most. The point of the book however is that we are indeed “fearfully and wonderfully” made, and could only have been done by a Creator – not be accident over any stretch of time. Yes, DNA does have evidence – but it is, as the book’s title suggests, “The Language of God”.

    By the way, there is evidence for a local and even a possible universal flood. However, whenever it comes up (for example research into the origins of the Black Sea), even reputable scientists get zapped for even thinking about the possibility.

    Of course, people on both sides of the issues are the “zappers”. My favorite theologian and excellent Biblical linguist, Gleason Archer, showed quite well that the Genesis record may well better speak to a long evolutionary process than seven days. I’ve read and re-read the account and I have to agree – it just reads that way better. No, I’ll admit I can’t make it all fit perfectly – but no on on any side can either. One does have to admit that the beginning of Genesis just simply reads differently than other portions of Scripture. Whatever – I wasn’t there, but the point is well taken – Man fell at some point, he struggles with his humanity and becoming “good” – but God, from the beginning of time worked His plan for our reconciliation. That is the “good news”.

    By the way, to say the Bible is in error on these ancient texts is more saying interpretations and understandings are in error. We don’t really know what literary devices were in play back then, or what the author’s real intent was – even if known by the people of the day. We judge these texts with our own literary filters on and stop really listening because we’ve already made up our minds as to what they should or might say based on either “religious” or “scientific” thought lines. Both thought lines may be completely in error in understanding these types of texts. That’s what makes real Biblical research interesting – it is comprised not only of the understanding of each word and structure – but also of thought and culture. Yes, some things are obviously Biblically historical in time-space – like the death and resurrection of Christ. But these “beginnings” – hmmm, maybe not like we think of them now.

    By the way – on the posting about Abraham and times and dates. I wouldn’t get too jelled in thinking on this one. For a while people thought the Exodus invasion into Canaan was a joke, as it seemed to happen over a long time. Then it came to be understood that this was true in some aspects and some areas (cities vs. countrysides), but not others. Then when you go back and compare the text with the revised theory (that is gradual sometimes and by rapid take-over other times) – it becomes clear that the text is accurate as well. In other words – times and dates and such are always in a state of flux in research and so depend on who’s saying it (trying to get their next research grant). It’s just the nature of the process. I definitely wouldn’t dismiss the Scriptures on such shaky ground as that.

    I’ve written enough – just wanted to chime in, having read through all this.

    By the way – whoever the Christian is that is talking about hell and giving whoever is writing here a tough time – I really ask you to stop doing that – it is really just not a godly way of loving people who don’t agree with you. Personally, I like honest discussion and understand that none of our thinking or communications are always totally accurate – sometime they are just a stream of thought for the moment to see if it leads to something better.

    God has certainly “broken through” my reality way too many times for me to say anything but that He is certainly alive and active and Who He says He is. Do I understand Him and the way I may read of His doings in both OT and NT – no way! Do I understand why things happen the way they do today to seemingly good people? Nope. I really don’t need to understand – that’s not my role – and if I did, why then I’d be as God. Guess that ain’t happening anytime soon.

    Ok, enough chattin’ – have a great weekend all.

    -Jack

  38. thewordofme says:

    Hi Jack, thanks for writing.

    You write:
    “You keep mentioning DNA evidence. You may want to read a very interesting book titled The Language of God, written by an Evangelical Christian man who was in charge of the human genome project.”

    I’ll put your recommended book on my ‘to read’ list. It’s pretty long right now, but I’m a voracious reader.

    All the DNA evidence I have been hearing about can be found in science magazines and professional journals. The National Geographic Magazine and IBM recently completed their Genome study of well over 100,000 people from all over the world and they find that all blood lines converge in Africa and they can pick out points in time tens and hundreds of thousands years ago when people left and they can trace where they went. They can trace blood lines of Australian aborigines back over 40,000 years to when they left Africa. They can trace the bloodlines of American Indians (Native Americans?) back to Asia.

    Do you think that these companies do not know what they are doing; that they are lying and making up this stuff?

    In all my years of searching I have found no scientific evidence at all that the earth was ever completely covered with water in a time where humans were on it. However you can find plenty of information against the Biblical flood. There are many places on the Internet that are reputable purveyors of truth and fact, and the information is out there in public libraries and bookstores and college and university classrooms and textbooks. The evidence is really overwhelming…no worldwide flood. There is lots of evidence for local floods, some even very very large…one of them was around 2900 BC in the Babylon area.

    You write:
    “My favorite theologian and excellent Biblical linguist, Gleason Archer, showed quite well that the Genesis record may well better speak to a long evolutionary process than seven days. I’ve read and re-read the account and I have to agree – it just reads that way better.”

    I’m assuming here that you mean the ‘day age’ theory where each day can represent a geological age/time period, i.e. millions or even billions of years. Yes I know that some Protestant congregations believe this is so, heck, even I think this is a better explanation than the 6 literal days and earth age at 6,000 years.

    You write:
    “No, I’ll admit I can’t make it all fit perfectly – but no one on any side can either. One does have to admit that the beginning of Genesis just simply reads differently than other portions of Scripture. Whatever – I wasn’t there, but the point is well taken.”

    I think that much of the Pentateuch reads differently because Moses, or any one single writer, did not write it. I think most Biblical scholars believe that the Pentateuch was compiled from different writers sometime in or shortly after the exile.

    You write:
    “By the way, to say the Bible is in error on these ancient texts is more saying interpretations and understandings are in error. We don’t really know what literary devices were in play back then, or what the author’s real intent was – even if known by the people of the day. We judge these texts with our own literary filters on and stop really listening because we’ve already made up our minds as to what they should or might say based on either “religious” or “scientific” thought lines.”

    I agree with you to a point on this subject. Yes, there are lots of things that have been interpreted by church scholars, many read into the scriptures things that are simply not so. The things I mostly write about are the actual words from the book. The ‘Worldwide Flood’ as written about in the Bible simply did not happen. The ‘Tower of Babel’ as written in the Bible did not happen. ‘Adam and Eve’ as written in the Bible did not happen.

    This seriously impacts the authority of the Bible…really seriously. If Adam and Eve weren’t around to eat the fruit and get kicked out, then there was no original sin such as Paul writes about. The story about Abraham and Ur of the Chaldees has that VERY large anachronism of nearly a thousand years. Abraham and Lot and the city of Dan has that three hundred year anachronism, and the Bible says in one place that Abrahams dad dies at 175 years and in another place makes his age of death 215 years.

    Even Israeli archaeologists are now saying that the Jews were not slaves in Egypt (also no flood evidence in Egypt) Joshua never fought the battle of Jericho and Ai was already a ruin when the troops came upon it (the name Ai means ruins). Now of course if there was no Exodus than there was no parting of the Red/Reed Sea or burning bush or Ten Commandments or the rock spouting water a Horeb, and so on. The evidence is simply not there, and believe me, many people have been trying to find it.

    Below is from my blog a few months ago:

    “Israeli archaeologist Ze’ev Herzog(1) provides a controversial consensus view on the historicity of the Exodus and some other parts of the Hebrew myth.
    In 1999, Haaretz weekly magazine cover page article “Deconstructing the walls of Jericho” attracted considerable public attention and debates. In this article Herzog claims that “the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort (Asherah) and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period (c920-900 BC ) of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai”
    If the whole Exodus story itself is unhistorical we can safely dismiss the other parts of the story [the parting of the Red Sea (Exodus 14:21), the manna from heaven (Exodus 16:15-35) and the supply of water from the Rock in Horeb (Exodus 17:7)] as mythical addition to an already fictitious account.

    Ze’ev Herzog (born 1941) is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Ze’ev Herzog is the director of The Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology since 2005.”

    This guy from the story above is not a kook, and his credentials and story can be checked out on the net. Here’s a Jewish archaeologists born in, and living and working in Israel, saying that some of the Bible stories are not true.

    I just don’t think the things I have mentioned so far are not dependent on anyone’s interpretation.

    You write:
    “By the way – whoever the Christian is that is talking about hell and giving whoever is writing here a tough time – I really ask you to stop doing that – it is really just not a godly way of loving people who don’t agree with you.”

    Thanks for the concern Jack. I have several Baptist hell raisers that get after me occasionally, but I don’t mind them at all, in fact there’s one I really like to correspond with.

    Over the time I have been thinking and researching the subject of religion I have found it totally fascinating and absorbing. I won’t stop anytime soon, but I have to tell you, there are so many scientific subjects that impinge on religion in one way or another that seem to point to it being a sham. I look and look, and the evidence—so far—says no.

    I want to thank you for taking the time to write to me, and invite you back at anytime. I respect thoughtful and intelligent conversation. twom

    • Thomas Henry says:

      Twom,

      I’ve been reading through these comments for an hour now and something about you saying you’ve looked and looked spoke to me. I’ll be the first to admit I have not studied deeply scientifically what the Old Testament claims. But I do know our salvation is not based on whether or not we believe in the flood it’s based on our faith in Jesus Christ. I have studied the evidence of Jesus and it comes up pretty strong. A question I have for you is why do you think you are so compelled to study religion? I would challenge that it is the holy spirit tugging at your heart because it is ingrained in humans to seek after God but because of the Fall we resist that natural desire to be United with him. I know I’m straying from the original content but I believe this much argument and disagreement over the flood is misplaced when our salvation depends not on a flood but on the Life, Death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Thanks for hearing me out!

  39. Jack says:

    Twom,

    A couple of quick items – I’ll write more when I have time.

    One – so much of what one brings forward in a discussion like this is based on someone’s research or ideas, without counter-arguments from other’s ideas. Mentioning Herzog above is like talking about the Jesus Seminar. They have a point they are trying to make, dismissing certain findings in favor of bolstering other so-called findings. Reputable archeaologists disagree with Herzog (Hershel Shanks and, on the historian side, Lawrence H. Schiffman, and others). The main point is that these historical “facts” and “findings” are so fluid it just depends on who you want to listen to. I find discussions such as those like at the following location fairly well balanced (http://www.cresourcei.org/exodusdate.html). You mention people like Herzog’s credentials. I’d certainly be wary of saying that is worth much for anyone, on any side of any discussion. The reason is that people love to publish, and they love notoriety and they know new ideas get attention. That is part of our nature and the nature of academia (publish or perish).

    I don’t really know if we’ll ever be able to prove things did or didn’t happen when and as the Scriptures depict (certainly not the miracles). The Scriptural storyline of redemption rings true to the human condition, and it is to that which many respond when they read it.

    On original sin – whether it occurred at a singular creative event like on the sixth day and after, or when God put His Spirit in what had evolved into man (more like it) – it is still an act of rebellion against God’s moral law. It is to that the rest of the redemptive story speaks. Adam may be a real or a representative figure – but sin happened.

    More later…

    -Jack

  40. thewordofme says:

    Hi Jack,

    Just a note: the link you embedded in your reply is not valid.
    twom

  41. commendatori says:

    Well, i could nt read all comments, but this is interesting…

    First of all… regarding the flood, well, what if all our Geological Infromation was …well wrong, what if the earth was really different than what has been taught to us in school… Please watch http://commendatori.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/growing-planets/

    Once this done.. then .. you can reset all Geological data… remeber this is a theory… but so is evolution (until proven not guilty of being a fabricated lie).

    Once you’ve see this video, maybe you will ubnderstand why the flood has been misunderstood,…

    Also for all you non believers… one of the prophecies of the bible is that the River Euphrates will dry up in the end days to make way of the kings of the east (Revelation 16:12 and Revelation 9:14-16) …. Well please google “Euphrates river drying up” and see how interesting this is going to get… For more info, please read Revelation

    May God Bless all, and May Yashuah give you peace

    Please check more info on the bible profecies, and specuially the Jesuits, instigator of all Wars in our modern society….

    Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you FREE….

  42. thewordofme says:

    Hi commendatori, thanks for writing.

    I tried your website and all the videos said “removed by user”

    It seems that Naturalists (early scientists) as early as the 1600’s started doubting the flood because the evidence was just not there and almost all of them were Christians. So we’ve had 400 years of many, many different scientists examining the geological evidence and 99% of them have said or say—no flood.

    The Catholic Church and mainline Protestant congregations not only accept that there was no flood, but they also agree that evolution is real.

    There is NO geological evidence for the flood story and there is humongous lines of evidence for evolution…you are seriously misguided if you think any of the book of Genesis is true; it’s all allegorical.

    John of Patmos was writing about the Romans…there is no reason to believe that Revelations relates to our modern world at all.

    Haven’t got into the Jesuits yet, but I wouldn’t put anything past the Catholics and all their organizations. I am astounded that the Church still stands.

    I know the truth, and it has set me free.

    twom

  43. Mel says:

    Just thought I’d add a book recommendation. It is a book by a Christian astrophysicist. It is pretty interesting. It is called The Creator and the Cosmos by Hugh Ross. He has other books too that are probably pretty interesting. I have enjoyed reading all the replies and research. I like putting my faith to the test.

  44. thewordofme says:

    Hi Mel,

    Thanks for stopping by and for the recommendation.

  45. Amanda says:

    Hello TWOM!

    A source of information that I have found interesting is the documentary, Expelled. I highly recommend seeing it as it highlights highly credentialed scientists.

    On a different note, I can personally attest to the credibility of the following verse in my own life. Jesus says in Matthew 7:7-8, “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.”

    If you are truly seeking the truth, I am sure that you will find it. I know that for myself, it took a great deal of time, fight, and introspection to decide that I wanted absolute truth- no matter what the cost, what I wanted to believe, what was easiest to believe, or what the commonly accepted voice was saying to me.

  46. Dave Wyman says:

    “If you are truly seeking the truth, I am sure that you will find it.”

    And if I’m falsely seeking the truth? What? I won’t find it? Maybe I’ll find it?

    Truth – it can be so tricky for Xtians. For example, 29 generations are listed from David to Jesus in the genealogy of Matthew, but Luke’s contains has 43 genertations.

    So, save for David at the beginning and Jesus at the end, only three names in the two lists are the same.

    It’s silly to believe anything about Jesus, or in a Jesus, when the contradictions about him and so much are in the old and new Testaments. But many humans believe what they want to believe.

    “I HIGHLY recommend seeing it as it HIGHlights HIGHLY credentialed scientists.”

    Uh, are you high?

    I’m glad you follow the teaching of a non-existent being (otherwise known as the Jewish zombie with whom you telepathically communicate). But only if you’ve done the following:

    “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. — Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30

    Have you forsaken your relatives, your house? No?!? Why not?

  47. thewordofme says:

    Hi Amanda, thanks for writing.

    You might want to check out some of the criticism on the movie to be found all over the internet. Every secular movie critic I have read panned the movie badly.

    The quoted material below is from the National Center for Science Education and just covers one point of the movies arguments. If you follow the link you will access the NCSE site and it has point by point answers to stuff the movie brought up

    “Expelled claims
    Large numbers of scientists are secretly questioning evolution. “One on one, in a scientific meeting, after the third or fourth beer, my experience has been that many evolutionary biologists will say, “Yeah, this theory’s got a lot of problems.” (Paul Nelson, Expelled)

    The Facts
    For a movie obsessed with evolution, it is odd that Expelled never bothers to define evolution properly. The big idea of biological evolution is that living things have common ancestors: that they have descended with modification from earlier forms. To understand evolution, we have to study the pattern that the branching tree of life has taken through time as well as the processes or mechanisms that bring about the changes. It is well documented by statements from scientific societies large and small (see Voices for Evolution) that scientists no longer feel any need to debate whether evolution took place; what they are doing now is working out the details. Scientists agree that natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, genetic recombination, mutation, and symbiosis are major evolutionary processes, but they continue to debate the relative importance of each mechanism to the history and diversity of life. Similarly, scientists agree on the basic contours of the tree of life, although they continue to refine and revise the picture in detail in the light of further data and theory.

    Expelled confuses the debates among scientists about the details of evolution – how it works and what descended from what – with a nonexistent dispute about whether evolution occurred. This approach plays into the conspiracy theme of the movie: somehow, scientists are scheming to keep the unwary public from learning the truth about the supposed falsity of evolution. Science, however, rewards dissent and independence of thought – when it has a solid base. Scientists are an independent lot who find success and professional advancement by successfully overturning established ideas and through vigorously debating the evidence supporting scientific interpretations in scientific conferences and journals. The thought that anyone could herd them together to conspire against anything – even intelligent design – is laughable. One may as well conspire to herd a roomful of cats.
    http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth/evolution
    National Center for Science Education

  48. thewordofme says:

    Hi Dave Wyman, thanks for writing.

    I am generally kind of easy on people who write to me espousing fundagelical views…in the beginning. Its good to get them in a ongoing conversation and lay out the real science and get them to think. I guess I’m turning the tables on the proselytizers. 🙂
    twom

    PS I visited your website and liked it…will visit more.

  49. Caleb says:

    The masses are the foolishness of this world. Jesus Christ cannot be denied, there’s just too much to deny that He ever existed or that He did what He did. The very fact that Christianity was embraced, although corrupted, and still exists today is by the Will of God. I mean, we DID measure time according to his existence didn’t we? A.D. or whatever, The Year of Our Lord. Now it’s changed, of course, to be politically correct. But don’t you think when they established that timeline, someone said: Hey this guy might not have existed!….No probably not, if it was a worldwide acceptance. But I don’t know…

    Outside influences wrote in regards to Christ, people who were not of Jewish faith or Christianity, and the very people who persecuted him do not deny his existence, or that he even performed miracles, they were tested at the time, and there were enough eye-witnesses to account for what had really happened, and could have contradicted falsehoods that the apostles were teaching. I mean the destruction of Jerusalem was known to Christians before it happened in 70A.D., not a single one perished…The Jews had heard these rumors, and still perished. Not that it can be proven, but it does have significance to the survival of Christianity…it should have died with Jerusalem in 70A.D., if not again during the Middle Ages…But it survived, uncorrupted, unchanged, and continues to thrive throughout the entire world to this day.

    That’s just one thing, I wouldn’t dare look Christ in the eye and tell him he’s not the Son of God. Couldn’t do it…the dramatically positive influence he’s had on my life in the past 8 months has been proof to me.

    I guess one would have to realize the perfectness of this world, the precision in which it works, and the complete impossibility of it happening on its own, and sustaining itself the way it does. People accept evolution because it’s how our minds work: We think we can come up with a logical explanation of everything, and we’re here! So we must have evolved…They accept evolution because the only other alternative is creation by God, and that we DO have someone to answer to after all this is over. The Laws of God contradict how many of us live our lives, OR what we’ve all been forced to study, learn and recite for years.

    I guess there’s numerous reasons to believe the Bible. It’s better to trust in God than in the minds of men. Men are..well, stupid. Evolution makes nice diagrams and has excellent descriptions of how everything came to be, but it’s full of holes, left and right…period. The amount of physical so-called ‘transitional evidence’ is enough to fill a coffin…merely a pile of bones. I give us more credit than being just talking monkeys…we’re humans, and we haven’t been here that long. Nothing that is found has a tag on it that says: ‘I’m a million years old’. Thus much speculation is needed to support the idea of evolution, and therefore MUCH faith.

    Ever researched Charles Darwin? Do it, you’d be surprised to see that he was proven to have manipulated specimens and so were his cousins. This was released in the European media. What did we get from Darwin? Well, Naziism for one, the entire Communist regime of Russia…Ota Benga was kidnapped and put on display in America as a living exhibit, then killed himself. Numerous Aborigines were slain and their remains were bought by European and American
    museums. Evolution is a radical idea that the white man took and ran with. It’s a justification for this ‘survival of the fittest’ philosophy…that says that we’re ruthless, heartless animals, who kill, rape, torture, steal and lie Naturally..it’s just our instinct. I say no. When did a conscience come into play? When did we animals start having feelings for one another, and start feeling bad about our actions?

    Now, the dinosaurs. The Bible tells us of the dinosaurs. There have been 20,000 reports or more in the 1900’s. Pictures of many, though many were fake, including the Loch Ness monster, a plesiosaur’s head washed up on shore in Monterey, Ca. in 1925, Tanzania, the Congo, And Hundreds more. I just can’t stand here and call thousands upon thousands of people liars. Not to mention ancient civilizations depicting them in their pottery, walls, etc.

    Now history. History, I’ve found, is just that: HIS story. It’s incomplete no matter where you look. Egyptians can’t even tell you who was pharaoh during the exodus, cuz they don’t know. They were left without leadership, protection, and suffered greatly. What about Imhotep? Could he have actually been biblical Joseph? Turmoil, war, destruction occurred in many parts of the world and therefore wiped out MANY artifacts that could have proved biblical accounts. I just saw a news article on Yahoo yesterday about something found in Israel possibly from King Solomon’s day and King David, 1000B.C. -Israel, the Holy Land, can’t provide a definite account of what happened in 1000B.C., simply because it had been destroyed and besieged…people were too busy surviving to worry about preserving history. So I don’t believe for a second that China, Egypt, etc., none of those civilizations know their history. They can speculate, but they cannot prove…period. I trust in God over the minds of men. History has been fabricated in many cases.

    Now the archaeology. How many times do you think someone has found something; something that contradicted something they believed in, and destroyed it? I’m sure that’s happened hundreds of times. The Saudi’s have blocked off what could be Mt Sinai, removed the pillar on their side of the sea where Moses crossed, which chariot wheels, horse and men skeletons were found incased in the bottom. Numerous finds support various events in the OT, particularly in Kings, Judges, Deuteronomy, etc. Many have been covered up, others exposed and ignored.

    Fact is, we all turn to God at some point in our lives, there are no atheists in hospitals. Satan’s greatest trick was convincing man he didn’t exist, and he’s done a great job at it. Miracles have occurred, reported and proven to be true, the unexplained, the unknown…there’s too much that we can’t ignore. The truth is suppressed, and the majority of the world will never know it. We’ve rejected him since day 1 and we always will…I know he’s there, I give him credit for everything we have in this world, every necessity. But we will always reject it, because our minds do not easily understand God and his workings…it takes time, faith, and dedications to his higher power, acknowledging its there and that you are not greater than it. Men are weak…I put my faith in God.

  50. thewordofme says:

    Hi Caleb, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

    The Catholics were the ones who proposed and adapted the age dating of ‘Before Christ’ (BC) and the term ‘Anno Domini’ (AD) is medieval Latin, translated as In the year of (the/Our) Lord.

    The Anno Domini dating system was devised in 525 AD by Dionysius Exiguus, who used it to compute the date of the Christian Easter festival, and to identify the several Easters in his Easter table.

    At this time in history the Catholic Church pretty much totally controlled the Western world and higher learning and scholarship especially.

    You write:
    “Outside influences wrote in regards to Christ, people who were not of Jewish faith or Christianity, and the very people who persecuted him do not deny his existence, or that he even performed miracles, they were tested at the time, and there were enough eye-witnesses to account for what had really happened, and could have contradicted falsehoods that the apostles were teaching.”

    Jesus can easily be questioned (Search the Jesus Seminars) and some even now are doing this. There was no secular writing about the man in his lifetime even though he supposedly went around raising the dead and curing leprosy and feeding multitudes with a fish and loaf of bread or two. Even accepted religious writers were mute on Him until 30 or so years after His death.

    Paul SAYS he saw Jesus in a beam of light on the Damascus road…never met Him in person. There are inconsistencies in this story also. Well I’ve encountered a beam of light on the road, but it was just a UFO. 🙂 Some people I’ve seen on Hollywood Blvd. street corners say they have seen Jesus (or God) in a beam of light, but I’m doubtful of this

    The Gospels have widely disparate stories and there are inconsistencies about His actual death on the cross and His resurrection. Many Biblical scholars don’t believe the authors of the Gospels are actually the work of the apostles…they are second or third hand stories and written by people claiming to be apostles or claiming to be passing on the works of the apostles.

    Then of course there are the stories of the copying going on between the synoptic works. Although I personally think the man was probably a real person, not a God, but a real person…there are more than a few who think not. The Jews of course still believe that he was not the Messiah…just a man, and they had a real personal and intimate relationship with their God…after all, they were God’s hit squad for many a century.

    You write:
    “I mean the destruction of Jerusalem was known to Christians before it happened in 70A.D., not a single one perished…The Jews had heard these rumors, and still perished. Not that it can be proven, but it does have significance to the survival of Christianity…it should have died with Jerusalem in 70A.D., if not again during the Middle Ages…But it survived, uncorrupted, unchanged, and continues to thrive throughout the entire world to this day.”

    The Jews were the ones who stirred up the trouble that caused the Romans to level Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was their city at the time, and they were clearly revolting against Roman control.

    The middle ages was a time of Christian (Catholic Church) control of the western world and it was not in trouble at that time. Also the Dark Ages was a time when Christianity RULED everyone and everything in the west and western civilization lost many of the advances it had made up to that time. There was no searching or exploring for knowledge or anything…the Bible and Christ was thought to provide all that humanity needed and the church was in control…sad times then.

    Around these times Christianity decide to follow the words from the Bible…’suffer not a witch to live’ and they proceeded to kill up to 3 million poor souls. It was many years before mankind realized that the Bible is mostly myths and allegory…there are no witches…never was. Demons and Angels and Witches are myths. Some people still haven’t got it through their thick heads that there is NO magic in this world…never was. Oh, and don’t forget the Inquisition and the 10’s of thousands, or more, of people tortured and killed for heresy and blasphemy in those times.

    You see these are the same people that had possession of any and all “Scriptures and writings” of the Christian religion. The Catholics had sole possession of them for a thousand years, to do with, and tinker with, as they alone saw fit. They went to war against anyone who disagreed with them and the dogma they imposed on humanity.

    You write:
    “I guess one would have to realize the perfectness of this world, the precision in which it works, and the complete impossibility of it happening on its own, and sustaining itself the way it does. People accept evolution because it’s how our minds work: We think we can come up with a logical explanation of everything, and we’re here! So we must have evolved…They accept evolution because the only other alternative is creation by God, and that we DO have someone to answer to after all this is over. The Laws of God contradict how many of us live our lives, OR what we’ve all been forced to study, learn and recite for years. “

    Prove to me that the world is impossible to have happened…on its own. We have already deciphered much of it. We were born on this world so of course we would believe it beautiful…but why does a perfect world have disease and poverty and hunger and evil in it if it is a project of some all loving ‘God?’

    It is possible for empirical, verifiable science to prove all of what it believes about nature and the processes going on here…Yes. Can religion prove its tenets? No it can’t, and I suppose that’s why it’s called ‘faith.’

    You write:
    “I guess there’s numerous reasons to believe the Bible. It’s better to trust in God than in the minds of men. Men are…well, stupid. Evolution makes nice diagrams and has excellent descriptions of how everything came to be, but it’s full of holes, left and right…period. The amount of physical so-called ‘transitional evidence’ is enough to fill a coffin…merely a pile of bones. I give us more credit than being just talking monkeys…we’re humans, and we haven’t been here that long. Nothing that is found has a tag on it that says: ‘I’m a million years old’. Thus much speculation is needed to support the idea of evolution, and therefore MUCH faith.

    No sir, evolution is not full of holes and the dating we can positively do is valid. You obviously do not understand it (no disrespect intended) and the religious people who are providing you information on it either do not understand it…or are lying to you…which I have found many fundagelicals do in respect to evolution. There are now transitional fossils for birds, dinosaurs, and whales and some small species which I forget offhand. The archaeologists and paleontologists pretty much accept that the previous Homo specimens (ergaster, heidelbergensis, habilis, neanderthalis, etc.), are our ancestors.

    You write:
    “Ever researched Charles Darwin? Do it, you’d be surprised to see that he was proven to have manipulated specimens and so were his cousins. This was released in the European media. What did we get from Darwin? Well, Naziism for one, the entire Communist regime of Russia…Ota Benga was kidnapped and put on display in America as a living exhibit, then killed himself. Numerous Aborigines were slain and their remains were bought by European and American museums. Evolution is a radical idea that the white man took and ran with. It’s a justification for this ’survival of the fittest’ philosophy…that says that we’re ruthless, heartless animals, who kill, rape, torture, steal and lie Naturally..it’s just our instinct.

    I have never heard that about Darwin, perhaps you can tell me where you find that information. Nazi’s and Hitler were pure Christians…that has been proven by documents put on the web recently, go here: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm and read away. Also remember that Hitler and the Pope had a concordance where Hitler would stay away from the Church if the Catholics supported him…which it did.

    Yes the communists were atheistic and they did kill millions, but evolution had nothing to do with it…just a schizophrenic crazy man at the helm. The British, I believe back in the late 1700’s or early 1800’s, when they were pretty much ruled by church dogma, wiped out the whole indigenous population of New Zealand and New Caledonia. Hunted them down and shot them on the spot…men, women, and children.

    Now I have been a non-believer for most all of my life (since the age of 13), and have never had a problem with wanting to go out and rape and kill and screw over my fellow humans. I help my neighbors, volunteer, donate to charities, and have raised 5 wonderful children who likewise have no problems such as fundamentalist Christians think we should have.

    It is a lie that one must believe in God in order to have morals and act properly, people all over the world do it.

    You write:
    “Now, the dinosaurs. The Bible tells us of the dinosaurs. There have been 20,000 reports or more in the 1900’s. Pictures of many, though many were fake, including the Loch Ness monster, a plesiosaur’s head washed up on shore in Monterey, Ca. in 1925, Tanzania, the Congo, And Hundreds more. I just can’t stand here and call thousands upon thousands of people liars. Not to mention ancient civilizations depicting them in their pottery, walls, etc.”

    Well you are obviously a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) if you believe this, and I’m afraid there is no hope for you. I mean this in the nicest way…your beliefs are contrary to all we know and are considered crazy by most all non-fundamentalists…which happens to be about 99 percent of the world. When out in the non-fundamentalist world I would not let anyone know what you think about Dinosaurs. 🙂

    You write:
    “Now history. History, I’ve found, is just that: HIS story. It’s incomplete no matter where you look. Egyptians can’t even tell you who was pharaoh during the exodus, cuz they don’t know. They were left without leadership, protection, and suffered greatly…”

    Egyptians can tell you who ALL the Pharaoh’s were and when they ruled…it is the Bible and it’s writers that does not know who ruled at the supposed time of Moses and the Exodus. That is probably caused by the Pentateuch not actually being written by Moses, but by scribes around 700-500 BC–long after the supposed event. They did not know who the Pharaohs were and when their time was…they were writing 700 to 800 years after the supposed event.

    Exodus may not have actually happened by the way. Some archaeologists from Israel have been saying that they can find no evidence for most of the story, and they have been looking for over a hundred years.

    You write:
    “I trust in God over the minds of men. History has been fabricated in many cases.”

    Well you’re not getting the truth from the Bible, just where and how is God giving you this information.?

    You write:
    “Now the archaeology. How many times do you think someone has found something; something that contradicted something they believed in, and destroyed it? I’m sure that’s happened hundreds of times. The Saudi’s have blocked off what could be Mt Sinai, removed the pillar on their side of the sea where Moses crossed, which chariot wheels, horse and men skeletons were found incased in the bottom. Numerous finds support various events in the OT, particularly in Kings, Judges, Deuteronomy, etc. Many have been covered up, others exposed and ignored.”

    So you think there is a conspiracy going on to disprove Biblical history? Do you realize that ALL scientists bow down to a system that will advance them to the top of their profession and give them tremendous respect and power if they could prove something like this? I know scientists, and the ones I know don’t even care about religion and the Bible and how their work impinges on this history—they just do their work to the best of their ability and pay no attention to the things you or I worry about.

    There is no conspiracy going on in science.
    Oh, by the way, there has never been found any chariot wheels and many skeletons of horses and men in the Red or Reed Sea. There was a guy a number of years back that had a con going on with gullible Christians (Ron Wyatt). He spent some time in prison for this…he’s dead now I think.

    You write:
    “Fact is, we all turn to God at some point in our lives, there are no atheists in hospitals…”

    You forgot to mention atheists in foxholes. Fact is there are plenty of atheists in both foxholes and hospitals. I underwent a 5 way heart bypass about 10 years ago and spent 8 weeks in there because of complications…like I said earlier, I have been a non-believer since the age of 13.

    Did you ever wonder why the prayers of amputees are NEVER answered?

    You write:
    “Miracles have occurred, reported and proven to be true, the unexplained, the unknown…there’s too much that we can’t ignore.”

    There has never been a bona-fide miracle proven beyond a doubt. There is no magic or supernatural in this world. Despite thousands of years of searching by thousands of people…nothing found or proven.

    twom

  51. Dave Wyman says:

    This is the blog entry that does it better than Jesus, as it is resurrected over and over again. Christ was only resurrected once. 😉

    Caleb’s commentary is hilarious, and it almost seems like a put-on, rehashing the dumbest arguments of creationists.

    Twom has made a great – and gracious – response. Therefore I’ll just mention one contradiction contained in two sentences:

    1) ” The very fact that Christianity was embraced, although CORRUPTED, and still exists today is by the Will of God.” [Emphasis mine].

    2) “But [Christianity) survived, UNCORRUPTED, unchanged, and continues to thrive throughout the entire world to this day.” [Emphasis mine]

    Which is it? Is Christianity, by a god’s will, a corrupt religion, as “Caleb” claims?

    Or is Christianity uncorrupted, as Caleb also claims?

    This is just one example of the nonsense spewed forth by one Caleb.

  52. Caleb says:

    Very funny 🙂
    It’s tough to explain to non-believers I guess. Something you have to feel. What I meant by survived uncorrupted was: the Bible, the Word of God, both Old Testament and New, unchanged, uncorrupted. Only the church itself and its leaders became corrupt. That’s Satan for ya, trying to destroy the religion from within, he did a great job at it, led many from accepting the truth. But it IS by the Will of God that we have it to this day.

    Back on the Hitler note; if, when you think of Christians, you picture ANYONE such as the pope, or Hitler, or anyone in that matter, and portray them as a Christian, you don’t know what true Christianity is. I don’t believe for one second that the apostles, or anyone for that matter, devised a plan to make up a savior to lie about, and be crucified, stoned, burned, stretched, boiled, or killed any other way, just to die spreading a lie? The very fact that the Scriptures have remained untouched since being written is astonishing, and awesome. It was never completely controlled by the Catholic Church, ever. Many copies were being kept safe. Hitler and the Nazi’s exterminated the mentally ill, etc. and bred Aryan’s in breeding houses to try and “speed up” the evolution process. Evolution would also suggest that we’re all a different species, and therefore, organ transplants may raise difficulties, wouldn’t you think? For some reason, they don’t, and you argue: That’s evolution! Doesn’t work for me.

    On the dino topic; would you at least agree that dino’s living in various parts of the world is indeed possible, or are you calling tens of thousands of people liars? Just curious, I mean, there’s even been geologist-approved cretaceous stone found with footprints, a fossilized finger…I mean it can be argued, but I say: It’s just as possible as all of us evolving from seaworms, which evolved from rocks!

    Did you check out any of those? The Loch Ness monster gets me the most, I mean, I’m sure lots of drunk Scots thought they saw it and half of those reports could be lies, but the other half I truly believe. Check out the claims made, they’re mostly news articles, but there’s thousands upon thousands. And you call each and every one a liar? You’re quite bold, my friend.
    And yes, evolution is full of holes. They fill them in where they want, but no matter where it goes, it requires speculation, and trust…i.e. Faith. Buddy, I was an agnostic for 20 years of my life…I struggled accepting Christianity because it went completely against everything I’d learned my whole life. But when I looked into it, I found that Christianity’s explanation is just as possible as evolution, or any other out there.

    Guess I’m not trying to get you to believe, I just don’t think you should be knocking on people’s faith. Some people have it, and don’t have the evidence to back it up, but let them be. You’ve done nothing to hurt my faith, but man, you’re doing the devils’ work by trying to prove people’s faith wrong. In the twenty years of being agnostic, I never looked down on anyone’s religion or made any attempt to hurt its credibility. Christ is portrayed as the humblest, most sincere person to have ever existed, and the Bible preaches nothing but love and respect for fellow man, and thanks to your Creator.

    I would guess that you have some animosity toward Christianity, or religion in general. Whether you were force-fed as a kid, or whatnot, you have a hatred inside of you for it, otherwise you wouldn’t spend the time on the research and the blog to prove something to yourself by proving to others that their faith is weak. If we were all like Christ the world would be perfect…period. P.S. Man has man to thank for every negative thing in this world. If you look at the meaning for the names in the genealogy of
    Adam, from Adam down to Noah, the meanings spell out a sentence: Man Appointed Mortal Sorrow; The Blessed God Shall Come Down Teaching; His Death Shall Bring The Despairing Comfort. God Bless you my brother, and may you find what you’re looking for.

  53. Caleb says:

    Oh, and Lenin’s communist regime—–Not Christian!

    I want to say (being lazy not doing research) that at that time Christianity was almost abolished from Russia? Or at least completely removed from curriculum, evolution was taught religiously.

  54. Dave Wyman says:

    Caleb – whoever you really are, since you hide your identity – what a hilarious series of comments.

    Let’s take just one of your almost painfully ludicrous points: that the man who proclaimed himself both the son of a god, as well as the father of himself, was humble.

    Only you, Caleb, would think a man who called himself all of that was humble.

    “being lazy not doing research…evolution was taught religiously”

    Yes, among other attributes, you’re lazy, and you’re ignorant of history, too.

    Stalin was captivated by the wacky ideas of Trofim Denisovich Lysenko, who believed, not in genetics, but in a form of Lamarckism which was about acquired characteristics instead of inherited characteristics and random mutations (and I’m betting you’re too lazy to look that up, too, much less understand it).

    So no, evolution was not taught religiously in the Soviet Union (of which Russia was a part).

    You have your own wacky ideas, too, among them that you telepathically communicate with a Jewish zombie who you think died 2,000 years ago.

    You also think, because people here don’t believe in your religion, that they harbor animosity. My, my, you’re getting defensive, aren’t you?

  55. Justin says:

    Dave Wyman, Jesus was humble he clamied to be the Son of God and he proved it by doing miracles and coming back from the dead. Jesus could have killed the Phariesees, Romans and anyone who didn’t agree with him but he was humble in front of them.
    Have you studied the Soviet Union? Do you think that if anyone for religion spoke out against evolution they were treated friendly?
    They were slaughterd. Stalin a huge Atheist killed 60 million of his own people! He also started wars and basically made veryone hate the USSR. Of these 60 million that Stalin killed, most were Christians.
    If anyone spoke out against the state and what it teaches they were usally killed.

  56. Dave Wyman says:

    Justin – whoever you are, since you’re posting anonymously – you’re on equal footing with your buddy, Caleb, when it comes to rational thought.

    You wrote: “Jesus…was humble in front of [everyone]”

    Because you claim Jesus was humble, we know you’re ignorant about the meaning of the words in your own bible.

    From Matthew 21:

    “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves”

    Only you – and Caleb and others in denial about the meaning of words – would think Jesus was humble when he overturned tables and drove people out of a house of god.

    And only people who are clueless about the meaning of words like “evidence,” “proof,” and “truth” would believe there ever was someone named Jesus. There is, in fact, zero evidence such a person existed, except in the minds of the brainwashed; that includes you, Justin, you who are prideful enough to believe you have a direct line to your imaginary god via telepathic communication.

    You wrote: “Do you think that if anyone for religion spoke out against evolution they were treated friendly [sic]?”

    Do you know, Justin, that if anyone spoke in favor of evolution, they were apt to be tossed into jail or killed? Obviously you don’t know that, and obviously you’ve certainly never studied the Soviet Union (but you get an extra point for realizing, unlike Caleb, that Stalin ruled the Soviet Union, and not just Russia; on the other hand, you lose a point, because you learned that from me).

    As for Hitler’s strong belief in Christ, and Stalin’s atheism, they have nothing to do with Caleb’s or your claim that Christ is anything other than a figment of your imagination.

    Caleb used the pathetic, cherry-picking “No True Scotsman” argument, when he claimed Hitler was not a Christian.

    And you, like Caleb, are unaware that scientists who advocated the concept of Darwinian evolution were persecuted by the Soviet Union.

    You’re a virtual advertisement for why people should not believe in the simple fairy tales found at the heart of Christianity. Therefore no rational person visiting this web page is going to put any faith in anything you write here.

  57. Caleb says:

    I sense much hatred in you, and for that I’m sorry. But it is very true. I know many atheists, lots are friends, classmates, and even myself for twenty years being an agnostic; I’ve never really met any atheist who’s had the desire to disprove anyone’s religion. I truly pray for you, that God will show you the way of love, and that he’ll have mercy on your for your ignorance.

    About Christ, you chose the worst possible passage to site, lol, that’s the worst thing you could find about him. The Jews were crooks at that time, the leaders mostly. They extorted people for years. Jesus showed them their wrongs and used Scripture to point out their flaws. So yes, as the Son of God, he went in and showed the people that what they were doing was wrong.

    Jesus never himself said he was humble, ever. It was the apostles, along with many others who noted him for his humility, and sincerity. The apostles tried their best to portray his humbleness in everything they did, everywhere they went. Others exploited Christianity and used it for personal gain, which went against EVERYTHING in the Scriptures along with everything Jesus taught. Catholics did the exact opposite of Jesus’ and the Scriptures’ teachings. You have to know the writing to know what Christianity/Judaism IS. And yes, the ‘No True Scotsman’ point still stands. NO Christian would deliberately disobey the ten commandments and knowingly do all the evils that the writings speak against, if he indeed was Christian. They associated themselves with the Savior to soothe their consciences, or to gain favor of some sort…NOT because they believed in its teachings and applied them to their life. That’s a fact. Read the Scriptures, and the New Testament and you’ll know what a model Christian is. That’s what Jesus tried to portray, and set the example as, but few followed and abided by it. So yes, I stick with that point, Hitler was NOT a Christian, the pope is NOT a Christian…though they associate themselves, they’re a disgrace to Jesus, and according to the Books they will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.

    You think that just because we don’t have Jesus’ birth certificate posted online means that he didn’t exist? The very fact that Christianity spread is based on this man’s existence and on the fact that he was resurrected. You have to have faith in God in the first place in order to be shown the light. Read the testimony of Paul, he describes it best. We’re slaves to sin, every one of us. Sin controls this world, especially American society, and we need to be reborn in the light. So no atheist can pick up the Bible and immediately feel the underlying message of love. They read a chapter or two and say: What? This is bullshit…it doesn’t make sense at first, didn’t to me. I had a hard time at first, but after enough research, prayer and faith, I’ve come to accept the Bible as truth, and the only way to live your life, striving for the perfection of Christ.

    On Stalin’s note, Lenin was in power long before Stalin and he completely opposed religion, search the facts, here, this was written by Lenin:
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm

    You are wrong in saying that. Religion, especially Christianity/Judaism, suffered extreme persecution, and that cannot be argued. Evolution WAS promoted and taught religiously in school.

    Satan did a great job at veering people from the faith, and it only reassures me in my faith to see the world the way it is. We as men have forgotten about God from the very beginning, and have relied on ourselves, and look where it’s brought us: 1/4 people in this world are starving, wars are constantly being fought, greed is the underlying root of all evil. It’s sickening, and I can’t wait for this world to end….this world will not last. You’ll see one day.

    Would you please site the source where you found evolutionist being persecuted in the Soviet Union? I had a hard time finding anything that said that. Lenin spoke for himself, he hated religion and promoted evolution. That’s a fact. So show me, will you please? Have a good day, sir, and God Bless.

  58. Justin says:

    Dave Wyman. When Jesus turned over the tables in the Temple, it was because what they were doing, making money out of God, like some TV pastors today. So of course Jesus was pretty pissed off at what they were doing to him.
    Do you remember when Jesus washed his diciples feet? Or are you just ignoring this?

    There is plenty of proof of Jesus. Jospehus was a Roman historian who wrote about him, along with other Roman documents, we have 10 refrences to Tiberius the Roman Emperor at that time, and 40 on Jesus a Jewish carpenter.
    So if Jesus never existed than Tiberius never existed and basically not many people exist according to you.

    God is not a fairy tale.
    In fact nothing and I mean nothing is completly made up.
    Unicorns are a mixture of horses (what exist) and horns (what exist)
    Fairies are a mixture of small people (what exist) and wings (what exist)
    A green elephant doesn’t exist but green exists and elephants exist.

    When you say I have never studied the Soviet Union you made me laugh my ass off. I’ve done many history projects on it and studied WW2 for 1/2 a year.
    Scientists who promoted Darwinian evolution were killed, not because they believed evolution but there were rich and went against the state in many ways.
    Christianity is not fairy tales, remember nothing is complety made up.
    Don’t learn Christianity from Dawkins, learn it from a Priest, yourself or Jesus.
    And actually read the Bible, over 80 percent of Atheists don’t read any religous book and that is why they are Atheists.
    Mate stop hating and start loving. Love thy Neighbor mean anything to you, or kill your neighbor?
    I told one of my Atheist friend once, what happens when you die? he said your bones just stay there. So I responded by saying so life’s pointless? Then he looked at me really scared and said he doesn’t wan’t to talk about it.
    Later he became an Agnostic. What he is now.
    One sentence changed his evil religious views.
    So I’ll give you one here.
    Without grace there is no law and without grace there is no grace.
    God said this to Elijah when the Israelits were worshipping Bah’l and were killing their own prophets.
    Think about the sentence I gave you.
    Amen.

  59. Dave Wyman says:

    Caleb wrote: ” I’ve never really met any atheist who’s had the desire to disprove anyone’s religion.”

    You’re not well read, are you, “Caleb.” 😉

    “I truly pray… he’ll have mercy on your for your ignorance.”

    In a paragraph you’ve switched from accusing my of hating your fairy tales to simple ignorance about them. Make up your mind, and maybe I’ll take you seriously.

    “About Christ, you chose the worst possible passage to site, lol, that’s the worst thing you could find about him. ”

    So, Caleb, if I picked the WORST thing about your imaginary fairy friend, what are some of the OTHER things about Christ that are worse than others? Please cite the relevant passages, chapter and verse, as I’ve done for you.

    “The Jews were crooks at that time”

    You’re anti-semitic, too. Now we all understand who the hater is.

    “Jesus never himself said he was humble, ever. It was the apostles,”

    Now you deny your own words. Now you claim Christ was not humble, you assert instead your (imaginary) apostles lied about him.

    From now on, anyone reading anything you write will trust you about nothing. Tell us what other truths they stretched.

    “Read the Scriptures, and the New Testament and you’ll know what a model Christian is”

    So now no one can be a Christian without being a model Christian. Which means there are no Christians. You’re in a make-believe club of your own, Caleb, which has one member who thinks he’s a model Christian, with a direct pipeline to his imaginary god. That would be you.

    “You have to have faith in God in the first place in order to be shown the light.”

    Yet you claim in the first place you were 20 years an agnostic. So you didn’t see the light until you stopped being an agnostic, when you put your faith in a god you didn’t believe in. And only then did you see the light.

    You believe people first must have faith in god before they can be shown the light. You believe people have to give up what they think is true and put their faith in something they don’t think is true. And then and only then will they be shown the light. That’s asking people to be hypocrites.

    You’re a poor role model as a Christian, asking people to lie to themselves. And you’re a good role model for why no one should believe in your brand of Christianity. You’re just like the apostles you say lied about Christ’s humbleness, you ask people to lie to themselves about their own beliefs in order to see the light.

    “The very fact that Christianity spread is based on this man’s [alleged] existence and on the [alleged] fact that he was resurrected.

    You’re a Hindu, too, then. You worship Shiva and the goddess Ganga. For, as you claim about Christianity, so too has Hinduism spread around the world, based on the Hindu story that their gods exist and have been resurrected, too, as written about in the sacred bibles of the Hindus.

    If you’ve only studied your own bible, though, you’re ignorant of the truth of Hindu beliefs.

    Be fair – you told us you didn’t believe in the bible until you’d completed enough research, prayer and faith. You’ve haven’t done that for Hinduism, so now we all know that you’re a hypocrite, too.

    “Sin controls this world, especially American society”

    Your bible informs you American society is controlled by sin. Huh. Show us where that is revealed in your fairy book – chapter and verse, please.

    “Lenin was in power long before Stalin and he completely opposed religion, search the facts”

    Nothing I’ve written suggests Lenin and Stalin were in support of religion in the Soviet Union. You just think I did, because it makes you feel better. My words answered Justin’s silly charge that the Soviet Union promoted the Theory of Evolution, which was the opposite of what Stalin promoted. But you’ve put words into my mouth, because it makes you feel better.

    “Evolution WAS promoted and taught religiously in school.”

    Prove it. Show us some documentation. Otherwise you’re making up stuff again. In fact, those who supported Western genetics were banned from universities in the Soviet Union from 1948 until after Stalin’s death.

    “Would you please site the source where you found evolutionist being persecuted in the Soviet Union?”

    Google is your friend, Caleb. Just type in Lysenko, Russia, Soviet Union, Stalin – you get the idea.

    Here’s one link that popped up: http://www.skepdic.com/lysenko.html

    Report back when you’ve done some reading about this, and admit your ignorance about the Theory of Evolution under Stalin’s rule. Then tell us about your “research, prayer and faith” about Hinduism. I don’t want you to miss out on what might be the true “light,” if only you gave yourself as much time to study another religion as you did your very exclusive brand of Chrisitanity.

  60. Dave Wyman says:

    Justin wrote:

    “There is plenty of proof of Jesus. Jospehus was a Roman historian who wrote about him, along with other Roman documents, we have 10 refrences to Tiberius the Roman Emperor at that time, and 40 on Jesus a Jewish carpenter.”

    Justin, when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word “proof,” you are “clueless.” Proof would require contemporary evidence, and all you’ve presented are the writings of people long after the supposed Jesus was dead.

    Such writings as you’ve mentioned don’t constitute proof – they are reports, and reports of reports. And none of these reports can point to evidence.

    How do we know George Washington existed? We have numerous first-hand accounts, including biographies, newspaper accounts, etc., all written when Washington was alive. Nothing like that exists about one Jesus Christ. Nothing.

    “In fact nothing and I mean nothing is completly made up.
    Unicorns are a mixture of horses (what exist) and horns (what exist)
    Fairies are a mixture of small people (what exist) and wings (what exist)
    A green elephant doesn’t exist but green exists and elephants exist.”

    Then we are in agreement. Like unicorns, fairies, and green elephants, Jesus exists only in the mind as a joining of two or more separate ideas to make one idea.

    And like unicorns, fairies and green elephants, the idea of a Jesus is nothing more than electro-chemical fluctuations inside a brain. He doesn’t exist outside our minds, he is as imaginary as the other creatures you’ve mentioned.

    “learn Christianity from… a Priest, yourself or Jesus.”

    Don’t tell that to Caleb, for he’s convinced priest’s are the tool of the Devil.

  61. Caleb says:

    No good points were made in your response, it’s not even worth arguing, it’s like you’re looking for a good enough reason to believe. The statement you picked on Jesus was in fact the description that depicts him at his worst moments: angered and upset at the Jew’s profiting on the Sabbath.

    “The Jews were crooks at that time” <- That makes me an anti-semetic? Americans are greedy crooks too and that makes me anti-American? Lol

    Your response isn't worthy of my response…you have no case, my friend. By "Met" an atheist I meant face-to-face, classmate, peer, fellow employee, stranger, etc. Not people shooting their mouths off on the internet. You don't see people standing on the corners with "proof" that disproves religions, rather they hide behind their computer screens.

    I do apologize for the "for your ignorance" quote. I'm sorry, but yes you are doing the work of the devil by trying throwing doubt on others, and I pray for you in that sense.

    The Scriptures and the New Testament speak for themselves. People who act directly in opposition to it are not following as they are expected, or are not following the ways of Christ. MANY denominations have given Christianity a bad rep. Pentecost's are ridiculous, they worship idols and re-perform the nailing of Jesus to the cross in some cases….that's not Christianity, but they wear a Christian mask. Jehovah's disown their children for merely dating other people…that's not Christianity, even though they have it figured out on most spectrums. The Roman Catholic church has killed thousands of people…that's not Christianity. Goes everything against Scripture and the New Testament.

    I never went back on what I said, but Jesus never came right out and said "I'm humble!" It was a perceived characteristic of Him by all the apostles and by everyone who reads the New Testament, Jew or Gentile, even you should be able to figure that out.

    I've believed in God my whole life, I said I was A-gnostic, not Gnostic. I had accepted Christ as my Savior at an early age, yet turned from the faith, never embraced or stuck with it. But God has led me back to it, in the strangest way, and through embracing it, I've had two close friends embrace it as well.

    I won't argue Russia with ya, just ask someone from Russia, they'll tell you everything. Christians and Jews and religion in general was severely persecuted in the times that followed Lenin, I don't know to what degree it lessened in Stalin's regime, but I've known people to say that they've met Russian children who know nothing of Christ, just his name. There's much documentation to support, I'm not doing your work for you.

    Hindu's, from what I've learned, believe that their God got sick one day and vomited up the world, then got sick again and vomited up water, plants, animals, humans, etc. They have some very far-fetched stories…don't really seem logical even WITH divine intervention…The Bible makes a lot of sense, even though our minds are in no way shape or form able to completely understand our God and how he thinks. Plus, there's HUNDREDS of archaeological finds that support it. Can you find any that support Hinduism?

    As its written in Scripture: Each man from every tribe, every tongue, will be judged on their attitudes and actions toward others, and their deeds in this world. In a few cases, it suggests that people don't go to hell if they've never heard the Savior's name or embraced him, or not believed. I believe they will be given a second chance at judgement if their hearts are pure. But they will be judged by their doings in this world…and we ALL will bow down to Christ at death. I've nothing more to say to you, but Good Luck and I hope you find what you're looking for. Take care, my brother.

  62. Dave Wyman says:

    Caleb wrote: “You don’t see people standing on the corners with “proof” that disproves religions, rather they hide behind their computer screens.”

    I’m just a click away, “Caleb.” You’re the troll hiding your identity, afraid to reveal yourself. Your phony Jesus wasn’t afraid to reveal himself, so you’re not doing a good job of modeling yourself after him. He was willing to die for what he believed, and you won’t even tell us your name.

    “I never went back on what I said”

    But then you wrote: “that’s the worst thing you could find about him,” because it’s not very humble to drive people out of temples and turn over their tables. You know that, and everyone reading your words here knows that. It’s too late to take back what you’ve written now.

    You wrote Hindus “have some very far-fetched stories”

    Yet you believe you can telepathically communicate with a 2,000 year-old Jewish zombie, to lift a curse off yourself placed by a rib-woman, after a talking snake convinced her to eat a piece of magic fruit.

    Oh, but wait! You claim “the Bible makes a lot of sense, even though our minds are in no way shape or form able to completely understand our God and how he thinks.”

    If you don’t understand what your god thinks, then you can’t claim your gods makes sense. Maybe you think a talking snake makes sense, maybe you think 2000 year-old Jewish zombies make sense. Most people in the world don’t think that.

    “I won’t argue Russia with ya”

    No, you won’t, because once again you think I wrote something I didn’t. The discussion was about persecution of Darwinists, not Christians. But again, you’ve completely glossed over that.

    “‘ve believed in God my whole life, I said I was A-gnostic, not Gnostic.”

    An agnostic is someone who doesn’t know if god exists. By definition, an agnostic doesn’t believe in a god, or disbelieve in god.

    “I’ve nothing more to say to you, but Good Luck and I hope you find what you’re looking for.”

    You’ve had nothing to say to me so far. And I’m not looking for anything.

    Take care, little Grasshopper – you have much to learn. Feel free to return anytime – I’m sure the door here is always open. Don’t let it hit you on the way out.

  63. Caleb says:

    Like I said; Not even worthy of a reply…typical atheist.

  64. Dave Wyman says:

    First, from Caleb:

    “I’ve nothing more to say to you”

    to:

    “Like I said; N[sic]ot even worth of a replyt”

    You can’t keep away.

  65. Justin says:

    Dave Wyman.
    Almost everyone in ancient history, was written about long after they existed.
    The first writtings we have on Alexander the Great was written 400 YEARS after he existed, so the 5-60 years of Jesus should also count as historical, if not your denying history.
    When I gave the unicorn, fairy and green elephant example. I was showing how nothing is completly made up.
    You are so bad at you history mate, your proberly a little Atheist brought up by some lustful parents.
    Oh ya and actually READ the Bible, as I said before over 80 percent of Atheists don’t read the Bible or any other religous book and that is why they are Atheists.
    You really need to stop denying facts mate, or your never going to know history, I study history mate and trust me Jesus is the only person with the most proof of all the things it says in the Gopels.
    If Jesus never existed, then why did people give up all their money, get tortured and killed for someone made up? No one ever died for a unicorn but thousands died for Jesus the LORD.
    Amen and wake up.

  66. Dave Wyman says:

    “Almost everyone in ancient history, was written about long after they existed.”

    Whether or not that’s true, nothing was written about Jesus at the time he supposedly existed.

    “first writtings we have on Alexander the Great was written 400 YEARS after he existed”

    Perhaps there was no Alexander the Great. Whether or not he existed, though, has nothing to do with whether or not there was a Jesus.

    “If Jesus never existed, then why did people give up all their money, get tortured and killed for someone made up?”

    What people? People mentioned in the bible? There’s no evidence they lived – or died – either, except what’s written about them in a book full of obviously make-believe stories.

    Following your logic, I can ask you why 19 Muslims gave away all they owned, and crashed four airplanes on 9/11 , killed themselves in the process because of their religious beliefs.

    Following your logic, the Japanese religion, and the divinity of the Emperor of Japan during World War Two must be true, because so many Japanese men gave away what they owned and killed themselves as Kamikaze pilots.

    “Oh ya and actually READ the Bible”

    I think most people reading your comments are aware you barely read anything. In any event, whether or not 80% of atheists have read you holy book or whether or not I’ve read it, has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus existed.

    What about the other 20% who have read your bible who are atheists? I guess they’re smart enough to figure out just how dumb the Christian bible is.

    So why do you think the 20% reject the bible?

    And of course, following your logic, 99% of Christians are Christians because 99% of Christians haven’t bothered to read a book by an atheist.

  67. Justin says:

    Dave Wyman.
    If Alexander the Great never existed, then the library of Alexandria was never built, if he never existed then all the mosaics and paintings we have on him are made up? Your logic sucks, no offence mate.
    Oh yah I was showing how most things in ancient history were written after they happened, so it does have a bit to do with Jesus.
    Saying there is no evidence for St Paul, is stupid because that means 15 books in the New Testement were written by no one. Also the documents written by Nero’s scribes on killing these Christians were made up to according to you.

    The Muslims who crashed 2 planes in to the twin towers, were religous but they didn’t have to give up everything, while they were in the US before 9/11 they were partying and spending tonnes of money from Saudi Arabia.
    Most of them also had 4 wives, so yes they gave up everything but for most of there life it was full of sex and money. The early Saints, didn’t have wives, gave up all their money to charity, fasted and devoted their life to someone you think is made up.
    The Japenese kamikaze pilots and other Japenese soilders in WW2 didn’t believe the Emperor was divine, they did it to conquer Asia, do your history.
    The Japenese kamikaze pilots did this because they were so scared that the US would conquer the homeland, they belived like the Germans that they were more highly evolved so more superier, thus meaning a less evolved race the Americans invading them is like mokeys invading.
    So they killed not of religous belief but of belief in evoloution.
    The 20% of Atheist who have read the Bible, look at it wrong.
    e.g) When God killed the people at Sodom and Gomarrah. An Atheist would say ‘ God is evil because he killed people’ though the reason why God killed them is because of their evil ways, when Abraham said to God ‘If I can find 50 righteous people in those cities would you still destroy them?’ God said no and as the number kept decreasing from Abraham God still said no. So this mean no one was righteous in those cities, so God did the right thing. Though an Atheist wouldn’t look at it this way.
    Another example is when Christ turned the tables over in the temple, like you said was bad and means Jesus was not humble.
    Or was Jesus telling the purpose of them being in the temple (to worship God) not to get money, so Jesus was doing the right thing.
    Though you are an Atheist so money is everything for you, even if your worshipping Dawkins.
    The 99% thing with Christians not reading an Atheist book, well again your against evidence.
    In America the Atheist books are selling like wildfire (this doesn’t nessecearly mean they agree with it) Yet the number of Atheist in the states is not growing too much from the big increase in 2004. Even if they were it would be proving Bible prophecy in Matthew 24. Some of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled.
    So start repenting.
    The Bible is not what you think it is, one of my father’s friends is a Bible scholar and she told me how studying the Bible made her a Christian.
    So why don’t you start studying it, discuss it with me and make your mind up on a less bias way.

  68. Dave Wyman says:

    “If Alexander the Great never existed, then the library of Alexandria was never built, if he never existed then all the mosaics and paintings we have on him are made up?”

    Ah, so you admit you think evidence for Alexander exists. Fine, Justin.

    On the other hand, NO such evidence for your zombie-god exists. No pictures painted from life, no mosaics laid down while he sat for them.

    So, on the one hand, you offer some (suspicious) proofs that Alexander lived, yet you can’t come up with anything for Jesus.

    Of course, no paintings or mosaics of Alexander were created while he posed, and the library that bears his name was constructed long after his death.

    Whether Alexander existed or not has nothing to do with whether Jesus existed or not. We can agree Alexander the Great was a real figure of history.

    However, you can’t offer any evidence that Jesus existed. In fact, your argument is so weak, you have to rely on another figure of history to help you prop up your own shaky belief system. Instead of showing us evidence, you’re reduced to claiming that because you think Alexander the Great was real, your zombie-god must have been real, too.

    And for the obvious reason you’ve been brainwashed, you don’t see that this is so, although it’s obvious to most other thinking people who might view your comments.

    Like the unicorns and green elephants you think are real, so is your zombie real – as electro-chemical reactions in your mind and the minds of people who think like you do.

    “The Muslims who crashed 2 planes in to the twin towers, were religous but they didn’t have to give up everything,”

    Oh, when they died, they got to keep their Saudi bank accounts?

    “Most of them also had 4 wives”

    Hoo-ha!

    “The early Saints, didn’t have wives, gave up all their money to charity,”

    Yeah? What’s your source for that?

    “The Japenese kamikaze pilots and other Japenese soilders in WW2 didn’t believe the Emperor was divine”

    Kamikaze means “divine wind.”

    “So they killed not of religous belief but of belief in evoloution [sic].”

    OK – so, you’re actually a troll. This is the loopiest argument against evolution I’ve seen so far, by far.

    “no one was righteous in those cities, so God did the right thing”

    This is a shining example of what a murdering jerk your god is. He’s God, after all, he can do anything, but he has to give in to Abraham’s wishes. And of course this means God screwed up royally when he created humans.

    An all powerful god wouldn’t make imperfect beings and then blame the beings and murder them. So you’re god is no more than a demi-god, at best, weak, murderous, and aparently stupid, since he’s already promised to do better after Noah, and still couldn’t get things right with the human creatures he made.

    “so Jesus was doing the right thing”

    Doing the right thing does not mean “humble.” It only means “humble” in your mind, Justin. You’re just not capable of seeing it. “Hmmm……..Jesus is humble. The bible tells me so. So turning over tables and chasing people out of a religious center must be humble.”

    Yeah, sure. This is just another example of your inability to think logically.

    “one of my father’s friends is a Bible scholar and she told me how studying the Bible made her a Christian.”

    So it becomes clearer. You’re a high school student, with your history projects and half-year study of World War Two.

  69. Caleb says:

    Nice, Justin. I couldn’t stay away, lol. On the 9/11 note, those ‘terrorists’ may not have even been terrorists. The evidence against our own government for 9/11 is astounding, and it’s very possible we may have done that ourselves to justify our entry into Iraq and have control over resources for war. Obama may even be the anti-Christ, he does share quite a few characteristics, but that’s here-say. You’ll know if we get into a war with Russia that shit’s going down, and you better repent.

    On another note, I thought about Moses and the Old Testament. I question, David, are you circumcised? Circumcision started in Ancient Egypt with the Jews, which spread to the Egyptian culture, and was adopted by others. You would have to suggest that Moses was a highly advanced doctor for his time, if he had no divine intervention writing the Bible, and if he made it all up. In the story of God’s covenant of circumcision with Abraham, God specifically told Abraham to wait eight days before performing the procedure on his infant son. Moses would have had to know that the body doesn’t have the ability to form blood clots until a week after birth. On top of that, in Deuteronomy, Moses would have had to have been an expert in human biology and health to know that eating pigs, shellfish & catfish, birds of prey, and amphibious creatures and snails, would ultimately lead to health risks: things that we know now, but no ancient person knew at the time. So an atheist would suggest that Moses made up this story, and was an extremely advanced doctor in his time.

  70. Justin says:

    Thanks Caleb.
    Anyway next the blasphemer Dave Wyman.
    We have such much evidence for Jesus.
    Here it is. We have 40 documents by Roman, Eygpytian and Jewish sources on Jesus from 150 years of his life. The Roman Emperor living at the time was Tibireus, we only have 10 documents from 150 years of his life.
    You WILL say how does this have to do with Jesus, well it doesn’t but it shows how we have more evidence for the Son of God then we have for a Roman Emperor that was 100% real, so if we have more documents on someone who wasn’t real, logic doesn’t exist.
    Brainwashed, mate yes I have been a Christian for most of my life but there was a time when I was Agnostic, then I realised and LOOKED AT THE FACTS that God is real and Jesus was God in flesh. So no I don’t think I was ever brainwashed.
    No the Muslims who crashed 2 planes in the twin towers didn’t keep their Saudi bank accounts when they died. Though if u know your history they ordered prostetites in their hotel room before 9/11 and basically had a kick ass life.
    My evidence that the early Saints didn’t have husbands or wives. Is that St Peter is described as a widower in the Gospels before he met Jesus, obivously u are so ignorant enough to believe this. Anyway once u became a widow or widower in Jewish costomes it was rare to get married again. So Peter never got married again further evidence for this is when Jesus spoke to Mary Magdalene (and no they didn’t have sex, truth twister) Peter out of all the diciples was the only one who was upset by this, proberly because he was remembering when his wife died. Also read about in 1Corinthians if I can remember (I am reading the Old Testement now) how St Paul writes how people in church postions should hold in their lust and try their best not to get married unless they truly wish.
    Kamikaze thing has nothing to do about Jesus (aka u always say that!)
    If God made us perfect so we never disobeyed him and he stopped Eve from eating the fruit, then where is free will? If God stopped Eve from eating the fruit we will be like slaves and without free will, how is God a jerk from being righteous? If a man kills a man does not he desevre prison? Or let him go to kill another? According to u we should release him, is that fair?
    When God promised Noah he would never FLOOD the world again, did he break his promise? God never said he won’t kill the unrighteous again, he said he would never Flood the world again (get that word into ur head flood, pronounced fl-ood, God didn’t promise not to kill the unrighteous, I am repating myself but u are acting like a child)
    Jesus was telling them to stop getting money out of God’s place, because the temple wwas God’s house. Don’t you remember when Jesus washed his diciples feet? Or do u want to read the Bible, are u just scared, to realise God is real?
    By studying WW2 for 1/2 a year maybe I should have made it clearer.
    If I add up all the history projects, studying on the period of history (WW2) I have been in what u would call high school for 2 years.
    Now in our high school it is bascially more like collage, it is hard to explain it because though we speak the same language, we have very differnt cultures.
    My father is oviously older than me and has a Ph.D in Middle East Studies and history, I am sort of following in his foot steps in history.
    Mate I am sorry if it seems like I am making this up but I am not.
    Mate I won’t talk too much on my personal life. Ok.
    But if u have anymore questions on Jesus, or the Bible, I would love to debate more.

  71. thewordofme says:

    Reply to Caleb on 2-26-10

    Hi Caleb,

    This is in reply to your post of 2-24-10

    You write:
    “…What I meant by survived uncorrupted was: the Bible, the Word of God, both Old Testament and New, unchanged, uncorrupted. Only the church itself and its leaders became corrupt…”

    The trouble with this statement of yours is that we don’t know the Bible was uncorrupted…the Catholics had unhampered custody of all the published canonical scripture (and much more) that ended up in our Bible, for over a thousand years. They are the ones who decided what was to go into the official Bible and it took them about 400 years to decide, and they lefts LOTS out.

    Do you really think nothing was altered? We already know that much of it was not written by those whose name is on the chapters. We know for a fact that there was much more theology and dogma and sects spreading all over the place who seemed to have their own interpretation. There were fights over dogma sometimes involving murder. The Catholic Church pretty much interprets the Bible whichever way they want…do you think they know something we don’t??

    “The average NT manuscript is about 200 pages, and in all, we have about 1.3 million pages of text. No two manuscripts are identical, except in the smallest fragments, and the many manuscripts which preserve New Testament texts differ among themselves in many respects, with some estimates of 200,000 to 300,000 differences among the various manuscripts, according to Bart Ehrman, professor of religion at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.” From his book: “Jesus Interrupted”

    You write:
    “The very fact that the Scriptures have remained untouched since being written is astonishing, and awesome. It was never completely controlled by the Catholic Church, ever.”

    Sorry guy, but you are wrong on this…ask around, try pastors and ministers and priests and rabbi’s. All we have are copies of copies of copies, see above

    You write:
    “Hitler and the Nazi’s exterminated the mentally ill, etc. and bred Aryan’s in breeding houses to try and “speed up” the evolution process. Evolution would also suggest that we’re all a different species, and therefore, organ transplants may raise difficulties, wouldn’t you think? For some reason, they don’t, and you argue: That’s evolution! Doesn’t work for me.”

    Hitler is a non-issue in this debate…he has been proven to be a Christian and he used Christian precepts in some of his speeches and laws. His book burnings were full of evolution literature.

    You write:
    “On the dino topic; would you at least agree that dino’s living in various parts of the world is indeed possible, or are you calling tens of thousands of people liars?”

    To the best of my knowledge the bones of dinosaurs have been found in most parts of the world…but, and this is a big but, they are all over 60 million years old…there has never been dinosaurs around when men were on the face of the earth. You are falling for Christian fundamentalists hoaxes. Check around the internet.

    You write, regarding humans and dinosaurs again:
    “It’s just as possible as all of us evolving from seaworms, which evolved from rocks!

    Nothing evolved from rocks, except rock dust my friend. 🙂

    You write:
    “…You’re quite bold, my friend. And yes, evolution is full of holes. They fill them in where they want, but no matter where it goes, it requires speculation, and trust…i.e. Faith. Buddy, I was an agnostic for 20 years of my life…I struggled accepting Christianity because it went completely against everything I’d learned my whole life. But when I looked into it, I found that Christianity’s explanation is just as possible as evolution, or any other out there.

    If you think Christianities explanation is just as possible in regards to evolution, you did not understand evolution. Very few holes left…they keep getting answered.

    You write:
    “You’ve done nothing to hurt my faith, but man, you’re doing the devils’ work by trying to prove people’s faith wrong. In the twenty years of being agnostic, I never looked down on anyone’s religion or made any attempt to hurt its credibility.”

    I am not an agent of the devil or the devil himself…there is no such thing, no demons or angels either. There is no magic.

    I am proselytizing to you, just as Christians have done to me for years and years. They are everywhere, knocking on my door, advertising in newspaper and magazines, using PR tactics to get some TV news or radio time, blaring from the TV’s and radio’s on Sundays…they are everywhere, and they are wrong about everything they think and talk about…they are robot drones spewing forth the same message over and over…”believe or go to hell.”

    You write:
    “I would guess that you have some animosity toward Christianity, or religion in general. Whether you were force-fed as a kid, or whatnot, you have a hatred inside of you for it, otherwise you wouldn’t spend the time on the research and the blog to prove something to yourself by proving to others that their faith is weak.”

    Realized there was no God at thirteen years of age…parents didn’t care. Married to a very Christian wife for almost 35 years now…have many many Christian friends. Now retired and am having a blast learning about religion and historic and prehistoric times, I have always loved history. I am not trying to prove to others that their faith is weak…I am trying to prove to them that religion is a con, pure and simple.

    You write:
    “God Bless you my brother, and may you find what you’re looking for.”

    Despite all the debating and arguing, I wish you well also, and may the wind be always at your back.

    I have found what I have been looking
    for…proof. 🙂

    twom

  72. thewordofme says:

    Hi all you guys debating and arguing here…I tend to write long replies and I have some honeydo things to do, I will answer as fast as I can

  73. Caleb says:

    “I am not a believer, but I have the utmost respect for Jesus Christ. I believe he was the most influential person who ever lived.”
    -Larry King

    Why would a Jewish-raised man say this?
    Jesus did pave the way for women’s rights…it was unheard of at that time for a Jew to speak to a woman. Just another thing I’d throw out there. I read a book by this guy Tim Lahaye titled: ‘Jesus: Why the world is still fascinated by him.’ Very interesting. Whether or not people believe He was the Son of God, they should acknowledge that he definitely lived, and definitely had a huge impact on the world. Awful things went down in his name, but the evil-doers were going against everything he stood for. This is my last entry, take care Twom.

  74. Caleb says:

    Hey Twom,
    just a question: I was curious if you might be able to cite the exact pieces of the different Gospels that contradict each-other. I wanted to know precisely how they contradict and see if there’s a plausible explanation for it. Thanks a bunch.

    On another note, if you have an hour of your time to look into this, here is a creationist-biased film that begins with creationist/evolutionist debates, followed by flood evidence. It incorporates some of history’s speculation and the numerous times that it’s been changed, revised, and re-speculated. Includes mathematical calculations for earth’s population, and even speaks about the historical accuracy of the Bible and the New Testament’s authenticity. Very interesting, but search the sources! Check it out. Peace be with you

  75. Caleb says:

    Lol. http://www.prophecyfilm.com
    Click on the video titled: ‘Atheists Watch Out! Creation vs. Evolution Debate’

  76. Caleb says:

    Haha, sry, It’s a side link on the right on the home page. Not that I take these guys words and trust in them up front, I’ve searched the sources, and they make an excellent point. Evolution truly is false, I believe, and it IS full of holes. I mean, these guys are professors with Ph.D’s, lol, search for the original video’s if you can’t trust the video posted that it hasn’t been altered.

  77. Dave Wyman says:

    Caleb wrote: “On the 9/11 note, those ‘terrorists’ may not have even been terrorists. The evidence against our own government for 9/11 is astounding, and it’s very possible we may have done that ourselves to justify our entry into Iraq and have control over resources for war.”

    Ah, so the planes were flown by robots – including the high jackers described in the phone calls from Flight 93.

    “You would have to suggest that Moses was a highly advanced doctor for his time, if he had no divine intervention writing the Bible, and if he made it all up.

    I don’t know why you brought up Moses, or who you were addressing. However, I would more than suggest that Moses never existed, except in the minds of the religious.

  78. Dave Wyman says:

    Justin wrote:

    “We have such much evidence for Jesus.
    Here it is. We have 40 documents by Roman, Eygpytian and Jewish sources on Jesus from 150 years of his life.”

    None of these documents were written at the time Jesus supposedly lived. Nothing you think is “evidence” is evidence. You want to think it is, but that doesn’t make it so.

    Mormonism is based on one eye-witness account, by Joseph Smith, who claimed an angel showed him golden plates. Numerous accounts of that supposed meeting have been written, all after the fact.

    You don’t believe Joseph Smith, even though people subsequently wrote about the “evidence.” Yet you believe your imaginary Jewish zombie friend, Jesus, is real, based on what’s been written in one book, as well as in your other “documents,” long, long after the “fact.”

    You’re inconsistent, aren’t you?

    Frankly, I’d expect more, even from a high school student, but I’ve seen over and over again the misuse of the concept of evidence by true believers.

    “Though if u know your history they ordered prostetites in their hotel room

    Prostetites, huh? What, they got dinner included with their sex?

    “Jesus spoke to Mary Magdalene (and no they didn’t have sex, truth twister)”

    Who said those two had sex? They couldn’t have, since they never lived.

    I can see why people like Justin would think Mary and Jesus didn’t have sex. Think about it: Jesus didn’t marry, Paul didn’t marry, Justin claims the disciples didn’t marry.

    We know people have sexual needs, though, and even Jesus was, according to Justin, just a man, as well as a god. Justin has described a group of closet gays.

    By the way, it’s “Tiberius,” not “Tibireus.”

  79. Dave Wyman says:

    “cite the exact pieces of the different Gospels that contradict each-other.”

    What to carry:

    Matthew 10:10 – “Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purse, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, NEITHER SHOES, nor yet staves.”

    Luke 9:3 – “And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.”

    Mark 6:8-9 – “And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: But BE SHOD with sandals.”

    More substantive: who was the grandfather of Jesus on his father’s side?

    According to Matthew 1:16 – “And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.”

    So it’s Jacob.

    Oh, wait, here’s Luke’s (3:32) take:

    “And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

    In your bible, note Luke lists 43 generations from David to Jesus. But Matthew lists only 29 generations.

    With David at one end and Jesus at the other on these lists, only three names in either lists are the same, not to mention they are totally out of order.

    Caleb doesn’t read his own bible. He needs atheists to set him straight on what’s in his own holy book – and what in it is a load of contradictions, like the two above.

  80. thewordofme says:
    Hi Caleb, how are you? Below are a few things that are kind of contradictory in both the OT and the NT GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness. GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn’t created until the fourth day. GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created. GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created. GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created. GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created. GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created. GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created. GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time. GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later. GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction. LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.) GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation. GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation. (Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.) GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as “the Lord” (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses. EX 6:2-3 God was first known as “the Lord” (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses. GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit. GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years. GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil. HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil. GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel’s offering and has no regard for Cain’s. 2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike. GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view. GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god. EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire. EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god. LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing. NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce. 2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) “I called to the Lord; … he heard my voice; … The earth trembled and quaked, … because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.” EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. “… who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him.” 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love. GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord. JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth. GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood. GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood. NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood. GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind. NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind. GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah’s Ark. GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark. GE 7:1 Noah was righteous. JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous. LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous. JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective). 1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians). RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous. GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark. GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?). GE 11:7-9 God sows discord. PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord. GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world. 1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion. GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah. LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah. GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born. GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time). GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years. GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen. EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God’s face and live. No one has ever seen him. GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel. GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel. GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings. JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing. GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son. GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God. JG 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had iron chariots. GE 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting. GA 6:15 It is of no consequence. GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an “everlasting possession.” GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled. GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God’s blessings. LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong. GE 18:20-21 God decides to “go down” to see what is going on. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view. GE 19:30-38 While he is drunk, Lot’s two daughters “lie with him,” become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring. 2PE 2:7 Lot was “just” and “righteous.” GE 22:1-12, DT 8:2 God tempts (tests) Abraham and Moses. JG 2:22 God himself says that he does test (tempt). 1CO 10:13 Paul says that God controls the extent of our temptations. JA 1:13 God tests (tempts) no one. GE 27:28 “May God give you … an abundance of grain and new wine.” DT 7:13 If they follow his commandments, God will bless the fruit of their wine. PS 104:15 God gives us wine to gladden the heart. JE 13:12 “… every bottle shall be filled with wine.” JN 2:1-11 According to the author of John, Jesus’ first miracle was turning water to wine. RO 14:21 It is good to refrain from drinking wine. GE 35:10 God says Jacob is to be called Jacob no longer; henceforth his name is Israel. GE 46:2 At a later time, God himself uses the name Jacob. GE 36:11 The sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam, and Kenaz. GE 36:15-16 Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kenaz. 1CH 1:35-36 Teman, Omar, Zephi, Gatam, Kenaz, Timna, and Amalek. GE 49:2-28 The fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel are: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin. RE 7:4-8 (Leaves out the tribe of Dan, but adds Manasseh.) GE 50:13 Jacob was buried in a cave at Machpelah bought from Ephron the Hittite. AC 7:15-16 He was buried in the sepulchre at Shechem, bought from the sons of Hamor. EX 3:1 Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses. NU 10:29, JG 4:11 (KJV) Hobab was the father-in-law of Moses. EX 3:20-22, DT 20:13-17 God instructs the Israelites to despoil the Egyptians, to plunder their enemies. EX 20:15, 17, LE 19:13 God prohibits stealing, defrauding, or robbing a neighbor. EX 4:11 God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc. 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love. EX 9:3-6 God destroys all the cattle (including horses) belonging to the Egyptians. EX 9:9-11 The people and the cattle are afflicted with boils. EX 12:12, 29 All the first-born of the cattle of the Egyptians are destroyed. EX 14:9 After having all their cattle destroyed, then afflicted with boils, and then their first-born cattle destroyed, the Egyptians pursue Moses on horseback. EX 12:13 The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and “pass over” them. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from God. EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as more than 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of about 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt. 1KI 20:15 All the Israelites, including children, number only 7000 at a later time. EX 15:3, 17:16, NU 25:4, 32:14, IS 42:13 God is a man of war–he is fierce and angry. RO 15:33, 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love and peace. EX 20:1-17 God gave the law directly to Moses (without using an intermediary). GA 3:19 The law was ordained through angels by a mediator (an intermediary). EX 20:4 God prohibits the making of any graven images whatsoever. EX 25:18 God enjoins the making of two graven images. EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent’s sins. DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent’s sins. EX 20:8-11, 31:15-17, 35:1-3 No work is to be done on the Sabbath, not even lighting a fire. The commandment is permanent, and death is required for infractions. MK 2:27-28 Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (after his disciples were criticized for breaking the Sabbath). RO 14:5, CN 2:14-16 Paul says the Sabbath commandment was temporary, and to decide for yourself regarding its observance. EX 20:12, DT 5:16, MT 15:4, 19:19, MK 7:10, 10:19, LK 18:20 Honor your father and your mother is one of the ten commandments. It is reinforced by Jesus. MT 10:35-37, LK 12:51-53, 14:26 Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man’s foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple. MT 23:9 Jesus says to call no man on earth your father. EX 20:13, DT 5:17, MK 10:19, LK 18:20, RO 13:9, JA 2:11 God prohibits killing. GE 34:1-35:5 God condones trickery and killing. EX 32:27, DT 7:2, 13:15, 20:1-18 God orders killing. 2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord slaughters 185,000 men. (Note: See Atrocities section for many more examples.) EX 20:14 God prohibits adultery. HO 1:2 God instructs Hosea to “take a wife of harlotry.” EX 21:23-25, LE 24:20, DT 19:21 A life for a life, an eye for an eye, etc. MT 5:38-44, LK 6:27-29 Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. EX 23:7 God prohibits the killing of the innocent. NU 31:17-18, DT 7:2, JS 6:21-27, 7:19-26, 8:22-25, 10:20, 40, 11:8-15, 20, JG 11:30-39, 21:10-12, 1SA 15:3 God orders or approves the complete extermination of groups of people which include innocent women and/or children. (Note: See Atrocities section for many other examples of the killing of innocents.) EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie. NU 14:30 God breaks his promise. EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie. 1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception. EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie. 2TH 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them. (Note: some versions use the word persuade here. The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.) EX 34:6-7, JS 24:19, 1CH 16:34 God is faithful, holy and good. IS 45:6-7, LA 3:8, AM 3:6 God is responsible for evil. EX 34:6-7, HE 9:27 God remembers sin, even when it has been forgiven. JE 31:34 God does not remember sin when it has been forgiven. LE 3:17 God himself prohibits forever the eating of blood and fat. MT 15:11, CN 2:20-22 Jesus and Paul say that such rules don’t matter–they are only human injunctions. LE 19:18, MT 22:39 Love your neighbor [as much as] yourself. 1CO 10:24 Put your neighbor ahead of yourself. LE 21:10 The chief priest is not to rend his clothes. MT 26:65, MK 14:63 He does so during the trial of Jesus. LE 25:37, PS 15:1, 5 It is wrong to lend money at interest. MT 25:27, LK 19:23-27 It is wrong to lend money without interest. NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness. JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness. NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin. HE 10:11 They never take away sin. NU 25:9 24,000 died in the plague. 1CO 10:8 23,000 died in the plague. NU 30:2 God enjoins the making of vows (oaths). MT 5:33-37 Jesus forbids doing so, saying that they arise from evil (or the Devil). NU 33:38 Aaron died on Mt. Hor. DT 10:6 Aaron died in Mosera. NU 33:41-42 After Aaron’s death, the Israelites journeyed from Mt. Hor, to Zalmonah, to Punon, etc. DT 10:6-7 It was from Mosera, to Gudgodah, to Jotbath. DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry. MT 5:22 Anger is a sin. DT 7:9-10 God destroys his enemies. MT 5:39-44 Do not resist your enemies. Love them. DT 18:20-22 A false prophet is one whose words do not come true. Death is required. EZ 14:9 A prophet who is deceived, is deceived by God himself. Death is still required. DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord. IS 56:4-5 Some castrates will receive special rewards. DT 23:1 A castrate may not enter the assembly of the Lord. MT 19:12 Men are encouraged to consider making themselves castrates for the sake of the Kingdom of God. DT 24:1-5 A man can divorce his wife simply because she displeases him and both he and his wife can remarry. MK 10:2-12 Divorce is wrong, and to remarry is to commit adultery. DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent’s sins. RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam. DT 30:11-20 It is possible to keep the law. RO 3:20-23 It is not possible to keep the law. JS 11:20 God shows no mercy to some. LK 6:36, JA 5:11 God is merciful. JG 4:21 Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him. JG 5:25-27 Sisera was standing. JS 10:38-40 Joshua himself captured Debir. JG 1:11-15 It was Othniel, who thereby obtained the hand of Caleb’s daughter, Achsah. 1SA 8:2-22 Samuel informs God as to what he has heard from others. PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees and hears everything. 1SA 9:15-17 The Lord tells Samuel that Saul has been chosen to lead the Israelites and will save them from the Philistines. 1SA 15:35 The Lord is sorry that he has chosen Saul. 1SA 31:4-7 Saul commits suicide and the Israelites are overrun by the Philistines. 1SA 15:7-8, 20 The Amalekites are utterly destroyed. 1SA 27:8-9 They are utterly destroyed (again?). 1SA 30:1, 17-18 They raid Ziklag and David smites them (again?). 1SA 16:10-11, 17:12 Jesse had seven sons plus David, or eight total. 1CH 2:13-15 He had seven total. 1SA 16:19-23 Saul knew David well before the latter’s encounter with Goliath. 1SA 17:55-58 Saul did not know David at the time of his encounter with Goliath and had to ask about David’s identity. 1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath with a slingshot. 1SA 17:51 David killed Goliath (again?) with a sword. 1SA 17:50 David killed Goliath. 2SA 21:19 Elhanan killed Goliath. (Note: Some translations insert the words “the brother of” before Elhanan. These are an addition to the earliest manuscripts in an apparent attempt to rectify this inconsistency.) 1SA 21:1-6 Ahimalech was high priest when David ate the bread. MK 2:26 Abiathar was high priest at the time. 1SA 28:6 Saul inquired of the Lord, but received no answer. 1CH 10:13-14 Saul died for not inquiring of the Lord. 1SA 31:4-6 Saul killed himself by falling on his sword. 2SA 1:2-10 Saul, at his own request, was slain by an Amalekite. 2SA 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines on Gilboa. 1CH 10:13-14 Saul was slain by God. 2SA 6:23 Michal was childless. 2SA 21:8 (KJV) She had five sons. 2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census. 1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census. 2SA 24:9 The census count was: Israel 800,000 and Judah 500,000. 1CH 21:5 The census count was: Israel 1,100,000 and Judah 470,000. 2SA 24:10-17 David sinned in taking the census. 1KI 15:5 David’s only sin (ever) was in regard to another matter. 2SA 24:24 David paid 50 shekels of silver for the purchase of a property. 1CH 21:22-25 He paid 600 shekels of gold. 1KI 3:12 God made Solomon the wisest man that ever lived, yet …. 1KI 11:1-13 Solomon loved many foreign women (against God’s explicit prohibition) who turned him to other gods (for which he deserved death). 1KI 3:12, 4:29, 10:23-24, 2CH 9:22-23 God made Solomon the wisest king and the wisest man that ever lived. There never has been nor will be another like him. MT 12:42, LK 11:31 Jesus says: “… now one greater than Solomon is here.” 1KI 4:26 Solomon had 40,000 horses (or stalls for horses). 2CH 9:25 He had 4,000 horses (or stalls for horses). 1KI 5:16 Solomon had 3,300 supervisors. 2CH 2:2 He had 3,600 supervisors. 1KI 7:15-22 The two pillars were 18 cubits high. 2CH 3:15-17 They were 35 cubits high. 1KI 7:26 Solomon’s “molten sea” held 2000 “baths” (1 bath = about 8 gallons). 2CH 4:5 It held 3000 “baths.” 1KI 8:12, 2CH 6:1, PS 18:11 God dwells in thick darkness. 1TI 6:16 God dwells in unapproachable light. 1KI 8:13, AC 7:47 Solomon, whom God made the wisest man ever, built his temple as an abode for God. AC 7:48-49 God does not dwell in temples built by men. 1KI 9:28 420 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir. 2CH 8:18 450 talents of gold were brought back from Ophir. 1KI 15:14 Asa did not remove the high places. 2CH 14:2-3 He did remove them. 1KI 16:6-8 Baasha died in the 26th year of King Asa’s reign. 2CH 16:1 Baasha built a city in the 36th year of King Asa’s reign. 1KI 16:23 Omri became king in the thirty-first year of Asa’s reign and he reigned for a total of twelve years. 1KI 16:28-29 Omri died, and his son Ahab became king in the thirty- eighth year of Asa’s reign. (Note: Thirty-one through thirty-eight equals a reign of seven or eight years.) 1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, 2TH 2:11 God himself causes a lying spirit. PR 12:22 God abhors lying lips and delights in honesty. 1KI 22:42-43 Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places. 2CH 17:5-6 He did remove them. 2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven. JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven. 2CO 12:2-4 An unnamed man, known to Paul, went up to heaven and came back. HE 11:5 Enoch was translated to heaven. 2KI 4:32-37 A dead child is raised (well before the time of Jesus). MT 9:18-25, JN 11:38-44 Two dead persons are raised (by Jesus himself). AC 26:23 Jesus was the first to rise from the dead. 2KI 8:25-26 Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began his reign. 2CH 22:2 He was 42 when he began his reign. [Note: Some translations use “twenty-two” here in an attempt to rectify this discrepancy. The Hebrew is clear, however, that 2CH 22:2 is 42. The Hebrew words involved are Strong’s H705 and H8147, “forty” and “two,” respectively.] 2KI 9:27 Jehu shot Ahaziah near Ibleam. Ahaziah fled to Meggido and died there. 2CH 22:9 Ahaziah was found hiding in Samaria, brought to Jehu, and put to death. 2KI 16:5 The King of Syria and the son of the King of Israel did not conquer Ahaz. 2CH 28:5-6 They did conquer Ahaz. 2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) was eighteen years old when he began to reign. 2CH 36:9 He was eight. (Note: This discrepancy has been “corrected” in some versions.) 2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin (Jehoiakim) reigned three months. 2CH 36:9 He reigned three months and ten days. 2KI 24:17 Jehoiachin (Jehoaikim) was succeeded by his uncle. 2CH 36:10 He was succeeded by his brother. 1CH 3:11-13 The lineage is: Joram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham. MT 1:8-9 It is: Joram, Uzziah, Jotham, etc. 1CH 3:19 Pedaiah was the father of Zerubbabel. ER 3:2 Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel. 2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 There is no injustice or partiality with the Lord. RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on (and hardens the hearts of) whom he pleases. ER 2:3-64 (Gives the whole congregation as 42,360 while the actual sum of the numbers is about 30,000.) JB 2:3-6, 21:7-13, 2TI 3:12 The godly are persecuted and chastised but the wicked grow old, wealthy, and powerful, unchastised by God. PS 55:23, 92:12-14, PR 10:2-3, 27-31, 12:2, 21 The lives of the wicked are cut short. The righteous flourish and obtain favor from the Lord. PS 10:1 God cannot be found in time of need. He is “far off.” PS 145:18 God is near to all who call upon him in truth. PS 22:1-2 God sometimes forsakes his children. He does not answer. PS 46:1 God is a refuge, a strength, a very present help. PS 30:5, JE 3:12, MI 7:18 God’s anger does not last forever. JE 17:4, MT 25:46 It does last forever. (He has provided for eternal punishment.) PS 58:10-11 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance. PR 24:16-18 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls or stumbles. PS 78:69, EC 1:4, 3:14 The earth was established forever. PS 102:25-26, MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33, HE 1:10-11, 2PE 3:10 The earth will someday perish. PR 3:13, 4:7, 19:8, JA 1:5 Happy is the man who finds wisdom. Get wisdom. LK 2:40, 52 Jesus was filled with wisdom and found favor with God. 1CO 1:19-25, 3:18-20 Wisdom is foolishness. PR 12:2, RO 8:28 A good man obtains favor from the Lord. 2TI 3:12, HE 12:6 The godly will be persecuted. PR 14:8 The wisdom of a prudent man is to discern his way. MT 6:25-34 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. PR 14:15-18 The simple believe everything and acquire folly; the prudent look where they are going and are crowned with knowledge. MT 18:3, LK 18:17 You must believe as little children do. 1CO 1:20, 27 God has made the wisdom of the world foolish so as to shame the wise. PR 16:4 God made the wicked for the “day of evil.” MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 God and Jesus hide some things from some people. JN 6:65 No one can come to Jesus unless it is granted by God. RO 8:28-30 Some are predestined to be called to God, believe in Jesus, and be justified. RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on, and hardens the hearts of, whom he pleases. 2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked so as to be able to condemn them. 1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 [Yet] God wants all to be saved. PR 8:13, 16:6 It is the fear of God that keeps men from evil. 1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love. Perfect love drives out fear. 1JN 5:2, 2JN 1:6 Those who love God keep his commandments. PR 26:4 Do not answer a fool. To do so makes you foolish too. PR 26:5 Answer a fool. If you don’t, he will think himself wise. PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true. JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word of God. JE 20:7, EZ 14:9, 2TH 2:11-12 God himself deceives people. (Note: Some versions translate deceive as “persuade.” The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.) IS 3:13 God stands to judge. JL 3:12 He sits to judge. IS 44:24 God created heaven and earth alone. JN 1:1-3 Jesus took part in creation. IS 53:9 Usually taken to be a prophecy re: Jesus, mentions burial with others. MT 27:58-60, MK 15:45-46, LK 23:52-53, JN 19:38-42 Jesus was buried by himself. JE 12:13 Some sow wheat but reap thorns. MI 6:15 Some sow but won’t reap anything. MT 25:26, LK 19:22 Some reap without sowing. 2CO 9:6, GA 6:7 A man reaps what he sows. JE 32:18 God shows love to thousands, but brings punishment for the sins of their fathers to many children. 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love. JE 34:4-5 Zedekiah was to die in peace. JE 52:10-11 Instead, Zedekaih’s sons are slain before his eyes, his eyes are then put out, he is bound in fetters, taken to Babylon and left in prison to die. EZ 20:25-26 The law was not good. The sacrifice of children was for the purpose of horrifying the people so that they would know that God is Lord. RO 7:12, 1TI 1:8 The law is good. EZ 26:15-21 God says that Tyre will be destroyed and will never be found again. (Nebudchanezzar failed to capture or destroy Tyre. It is still inhabited.) DN 5:1 (Gives the title of “king” to Belshazzar although Belshazzar was actually the “viceroy.”) DN 5:2 (Says that Nebuchadnezzar was the father of Belshazzar, but actually, Nebonidus was the father of Belshazzar.) (Note: Some versions attempt to correct this error by making the verse say that Nebuchadnezzar was the grandfather of Belshazzar.) ZE 11:12-13 Mentions “thirty pieces” and could possibly be thought to be connected with the Potter’s Field prophesy referred to in Matthew. MT 27:9 Jeremiah is given as the source of the prophesy regarding the purchase of the Potter’s Field. (Note: There is no such prophesy in Jeremiah.) MT 1:6-7 The lineage of Jesus is traced through David’s son, Solomon. LK 3:23-31 It is traced through David’s son, Nathan. (Note: Some apologists assert that Luke traces the lineage through Mary. That this is untrue is obvious from the context since Luke and Matthew both clearly state that Joseph was Jesus’ father.) MT 1:16 Jacob was Joseph’s father. LK 3:23 Heli was Joseph’s father. MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus. LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three. MT 1:18-21 The Annunciation occurred after Mary had conceived Jesus. LK 1:26-31 It occurred before conception. MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph. LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary. MT 1:20-23, LK 1:26-33 An angel announces to Joseph and/or Mary that the child (Jesus) will be “great,” the “son of the Most High,” etc., and …. MT 3:13-17, MK 1:9-11 The baptism of Jesus is accompanied by the most extraordinary happenings, yet …. MK 3:21 Jesus’ own relatives (or friends) attempt to constrain him, thinking that he might be out of his mind, and …. MK 6:4-6 Jesus says that a prophet is without honor in his own house (which certainly should not have been the case considering the Annunciation and the Baptism). MT 1:23 He will be called Emmanuel (or Immanuel). MT 1:25 Instead, he was called Jesus. MT 2:13-16 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt, (where they stay until after Herod’s death) in order to avoid the murder of their firstborn by Herod. Herod slaughters all male infants two years old and under. (Note: John the Baptist, Jesus’ cousin, though under two is somehow spared without fleeing to Egypt.) LK 2:22-40 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary remain in the area of Jerusalem for the Presentation (about forty days) and then return to Nazareth without ever going to Egypt. There is no slaughter of the infants. MT 2:23 “And he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: He will be called a Nazarene.\'” (This prophecy is not found in the OT and while Jesus is often referred to as “Jesus of Nazareth”, he is seldom referred to as “Jesus the Nazarene.”) MT 3:11-14, JN 1:31-34 John realized the true identity of Jesus (as the Messiah) either prior to the actual Baptism, or from the Baptism onward. The very purpose of John’s baptism was to reveal Jesus to Israel. MT 11:2-3 After the Baptism, John sends his disciples to ask if Jesus is the Messiah. MT 3:12, 13:42 Hell is a furnace of fire (and must therefore be light). MT 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 Hell is an “outer darkness” (and therefore dark). MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending. JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending. MT 3:17 The heavenly voice addressed the crowd: “This is my beloved Son.” MK 1:11, LK 3:22 The voice addressed Jesus: “You are my beloved Son….” MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil. JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana. MT 4:5-8 The Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple, then to the mountain top. LK 4:5-9 First to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle of the temple. MT 4:18-20, MK 1:16-18 (One story about choosing Peter as a disciple.) LK 5:2-11 (A different story.) JN 1:35-42 (Still another story.) MT 5:1 – 7:29 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the mount. LK 6:17-49 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the plain. (Note: No such sermons are mentioned in either MK or JN and Paul seems totally unfamiliar with either the sermon on the mount or the sermon on the plain.) MT 5:16 Good works should be seen. MT 6:1-4 They should be kept secret. MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus underscores the permanence of the law. LE 10:8 – 11:47, DT 14:3-21 The law distinguishes between clean and unclean foods. MK 7:14-15, MK 7:18-19 Jesus says that there is no such distinction. 1TI 4:1-4 All foods are clean according to Paul. MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus did not come to abolish the law. EP 2:13-15, HE 7:18-19 Jesus did abolish the law. MT 5:22 Anyone who calls another a fool is liable to Hell. MT 7:26 Jesus says that anyone who hears his words and does not do them is a fool. (Note: The translation now prevalent, “like a foolish man,” in MT 7:26 is a dishonest attempt to alleviate the obvious inconsistency here in that the oldest Greek manuscripts use the same Greek word translated “fool” in MT 5:22 and “like a foolish man” in MT 7:26.) MT 23:17-19 Jesus twice calls the Pharisees blind fools. MT 25:2, 3, 8 Jesus likens the maidens who took no oil to fools. (Note: This is the same Greek word translated “fool” in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.) 1CO 1:23, 3:18, 4:10 Paul uses “fool” with regard to Christians becoming fools for Christ. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated “fool” in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.) MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin. EP 4:26 Anger is not necessarily a sin. MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin. MT 11:22-24, LK 10:13-15 Jesus curses the inhabitants of several cities who are not sufficiently impressed with his mighty works. MT 21:19, MK 11:12-14 Jesus curses a fig tree when it fails to bear fruit out of season. MK 3:5 Jesus looks around “angrily.” MT 5:32 Divorce, except on the grounds of unchastity, is wrong. MK 10:11-12 Divorce on any grounds is wrong. MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Jesus says: “Do not resist evil. Love your enemies.” MT 6:15, 12:34, 16:3, 22:18, 23:13-15, 17, 19, 27, 29, 33, MK 7:6, LK 11:40, 44, 12:56 Jesus repeatedly hurls epithets at his opponents. MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies. LK 19:27 God is likened to one who destroys his enemies. MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies. 2JN 1:9-11 Shun anyone who does not hold the proper doctrine. MT 5:43-44, MT 22:39 Love your enemies. Love your neighbor as yourself. MT 10:5 Go nowhere among the Gentiles nor enter a Samaritan town. JN 8:58-59 Jesus hid himself, apparently to avoid being stoned. MT 5:45, 7:21 God resides in heaven. MK 13:32 The angels reside in heaven AC 7:55, HE 12:2 Jesus is at the right hand of God, in heaven. 1PE 1:3-4 Believers will inherit eternal life in heaven. MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33 Heaven will pass away. MT 6:13 God might lead us into temptation and it is better avoided. JA 1:2-3 Temptation is joy. MT 6:13 Jesus’ prayer implies that God might lead us into temptation. JA 1:13 God tempts no one. MT 6:25-34, LK 12:22-31 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. 1TI 5:8 A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. (Note: Providing for a family certainly involves taking “thought for tomorrow.”) MT 7:1-2 Do not judge. MT 7:15-20 Instructions for judging a false prophet. MT 7:7-8, LK 11:9-10 Ask and it will be given. Seek and you will find. LK 13:24 Many will try to enter the Kingdom but will be unable. MT 7:21 Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. AC 2:21, RO 10:13 Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. AC 2:39 Those God calls to himself will be saved. MT 7:21, LK 10:36-37, RO 2:6, 13, JA 2:24 We are justified by works, not by faith. JN 3:16, RO 3:20-26, EP 2:8-9, GA 2:16 We are justified by faith, not by works. MT 8:5-12 The centurion himself approaches Jesus to ask to heal his servant. LK 7:2-10 The centurion sends elders to do the asking. MT 8:16, LK 4:40 Jesus healed all that were sick. MK 1:32-34 Jesus healed many (but not all). MT 8:28-33 Two demoniacs are healed in the Gadarene swine incident. MK 5:2-16, LK 8:26-36 One demoniac is healed in this incident. MT 9:18 The ruler’s daughter was already dead when Jesus raised her. LK 8:42 She was dying, but not dead. MT 10:1-8 Jesus gives his disciples the power to exorcise and heal… MT 17:14-16 (Yet) the disciples are unable to do so. MT 10:2, MK 3:16-19 The twelve apostles (disciples) were: Simon (Peter), Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, John his brother, Philip, Bartholemew, Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus (Labbaeus), Simon, and Judas Iscariot. LK 6:13-16 The above except that Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, and Judas the son of James is added (and Judas Iscariot remains). AC 1:13, 26 Same as MT and MK except that, like LK Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, Judas the son of James is included, and Mathias is chosen by the others to replace Judas Iscariot. MT 10:2, 5-6 Peter was to be an apostle to the Jews and not go near the Gentiles. AC 15:7 He was an apostle to the Gentiles. MT 10:10 Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves. MK 6:8-9 Take sandals (shoes) and staves. MT 10:34, LK 12:49-53 Jesus has come to bring a sword, fire, and division–not peace. JN 16:33 Jesus says: “In me you have peace.” MT 10:22, 24:13, MK 13:13 He that endures to the end will be saved. MK 16:16 He that believes and is baptized will be saved. JN 3:5 Only he that is born of water and Spirit will be saved. AC 16:31 He that believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved. AC 2:21 He that calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. RO 10:9 He who confesses with his mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. 1JN 4:7 He who loves is born of God (and presumably will be saved.) MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men. (Fear God only.) MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc. MT 11:7-15, 17:12-13 Jesus says that John the Baptist was a prophet, and more. JN 1:21 John himself says that he is not a prophet, nor is he Elijah. MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 Jesus thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to “babes.” He says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain hidden to at least some persons, and specifically so that they will not turn and be forgiven. MK 4:22 Jesus says that all things should be made known. MT 11:29 Jesus says that he is gentle (meek) and humble (lowly). JN 2:15 Jesus makes a whip of cords, drives the money changers from the Temple, overturns their tables, and pours out their coins. (Note: The presence of the money changers in the outer court of the Temple had been authorized by the Temple authorities and was, in fact, a necessity since the Jews would not accept Roman coin for the purchase of sacrifices.) MT 12:5 Jesus says that the law (OT) states that the priests profane the Sabbath but are blameless. (No such statement is found in the OT. MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him. MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him. (Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the “for him” category in the first instance and in the “against him” category in the second instance.) MT 12:39, MK 8:12, LK 11:29 Jesus says that he will give no “sign.” JN 3:2, 20:30, AC 2:22 Jesus proceeds to give many such “signs.” MT 13:34, MK 4:34 Jesus addresses the crowds only in parables, so that they would not fully understand. He explains the meaning only to his disciples. JN 1:1 – 21:25 (Throughout the book of John, unlike the other Gospels, Jesus addresses the crowds in a very straightforward manner. He does not employ parables.) MT 13:58, MK 6:5 In spite of his faith, Jesus is not able to perform mighty miracles. MT 17:20, 19:26, MK 9:23, 10:27, LK 17:6, 18:27 Jesus says that anything is possible to him who believes if he has the faith of a grain of mustard seed. All things are possible with God. A mountain can be commanded to move and it will move. MT 5:37, 15:19, MK 7:22, JN 8:14, 44, 14:6, 18:37 Jesus says that you should answer a plain “yes” or “no,” that his purpose is to bear witness to the truth, and that his testimony is true. He equates lying with evil. JN 7:2-10 Jesus tells his brothers that he is not going to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles, then later goes secretly by himself. (Note: The words “not yet” were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.) MT 16:6, 11 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. MK 8:15 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod. MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom. MT 16:23 Jesus calls Peter [a] “Satan” and “a hindrance,” and accuses him of being on the side of men rather than that of God. MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom. AC 15:1-21 James presides over the first Council of Jerusalem and formulates the decree regarding the accepting of Gentiles which is sent to the other churches. (Note: Tradition has it that James was appointed as the first Bishop or Pope, not Peter.) MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering. LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards. MT 20:20-21 The mother of James and John asks Jesus a favor for her sons. MK 10:35-37 They ask for themselves. MT 20:23, MK 10:40 Jesus responds that it is not his to give. MT 28:18, JN 3:35 All authority has been given to Jesus. MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho. MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man. MT 21:1-17 The sequence was: triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, Bethany. MK 11:1-19 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple. LK 19:28-48 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, daily teaching in the temple. JN 12:1-18 Cleansing of the temple (early in his career), Supper with Lazarus, triumphal entry, no cleansing of the temple following the triumphal entry. MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT). JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself. MT 21:7 Jesus rides two animals during his triumphal entry. MK 11:7, LK 19:35, JN 12:14 Only one animal is involved. MT 21:12-13 The cleansing of the temple occurs at the end of Jesus’ career. JN 2:13-16 It occurs near the beginning of his career. MT 21:19-20 The fig tree withers immediately after being cursed by Jesus. The disciples notice and are amazed. MK 11:13-14, 20-21 The disciples first notice that the tree has withered the day following. MT 23:35 Jesus says that Zacharias (Zechariah) was the son of Barachias (Barachiah). 2CH 24:20 Zacharias was actually the son of Jehoida, the priest. (Note: The name Barachias, or Barachiah, does not appear in the O.T.) MT 24:29-33, MK 13:24-29 The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles. LK 17:20-21 It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles. It is already within. MT 25:34 Heaven was prepared before the Ascension of Jesus. JN 14:2-3 It was prepared after the Ascension of Jesus. MT 26:6-13, MK 14:3 The anointing of Jesus takes place in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper. LK 7:36-38 It takes place at the house of a Pharisee in Galilee. MT 26:7, MK 14:3 The oil is poured on Jesus’ head. LK 7:38, JN 12:3 On his feet. MT 26:7, MK 14:3, LK 7:37 An unnamed woman does the anointing. JN 12:3 It is Mary. MT 28:6-8 The women ran from the tomb “with great joy.” JN 20:1-2 Mary told Peter and the other disciple that the body had been stolen. (Would she feel “great joy” if she thought the body had been stolen?) MT 26:8 The disciples reproach her. MK 14:4 “Some” reproach her. JN 12:4-5 Judas Iscariot reproaches her. MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal. JN 13:21-30 After the meal. MT 26:20-29, MK 14:17-28, JN 13:21-30 Jesus forecasts his betrayal prior to the communion portion of the supper. LK 22:14-23 After the communion portion. MT 26:26-29, MK 14:22-25 The order of the communion was: bread, then wine. LK 22:17-20 It was: wine, then bread. MT 26:34, LK 22:34, JN 13:38 Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed. MK 14:30 Before the cock crowed twice. MK 14:66-72 The cock crows after both the first and second denials. (Note: These discrepancies have been “translated out” in some Bible versions.) MT 26:40-45, MK 14:37-41 The disciples fall asleep three times. LK 22:45 One time. MT 26:49-50, MK 14:44-46 Jesus is betrayed by Judas with a kiss, then seized. LK 22:47-48 Jesus anticipates Judas’ kiss. No actual kiss is mentioned. JN 18:2-9 Jesus voluntarily steps forward to identify himself making it completely unnecessary for Judas to point him out. No kiss is mentioned. MT 26:51, MK 14:47, JN 18:10 The ear of a slave is cut off and left that way. LK 22:50-51 The severed ear is miraculously healed by Jesus. MT 26:52 Dispose of swords. All who take the sword will perish by it. LK 22:36-38 Buy swords. MT 26:57, MK 14:53, LK 22:54 After his arrest Jesus is first taken to Caiphas, the high priest. JN 18:13-24 First to Annas, the son-in-law of Caiphas, then to Caiphas. MT 26:18-20, 57-68, 27:1-2, MK 14:16-18, 53-72, 15:1 Jesus’ initial hearing was at night on Passover. In the morning he was taken to Pilate. LK 22:13-15, 54-66 The initial hearing took place in the morning on Passover. JN 18:28, 19:14 It took place the day before Passover, on the Day of Preparation. MT 26:59-66, MK 14:55-64 Jesus was tried by the entire Sanhedrin (the chief priests and the whole council). LK 22:66-71 There was no trial but merely an inquiry held by the Sanhedrin. JN 18:13-24 There was no appearance before the Sanhedrin, only the private hearings before Annas and then Caiphas. MT 26:63, LK 22:70 The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Son of God. MK 14:61 He asks Jesus if he is the Son of the Blessed. MT 26:64, LK 22:70 Jesus answers: “You have said so,” or words to this effect. MK 14:62 He answers directly: “I am.” MT 26:69-70 Peter makes his first denial to a maid and “them all.” MK 14:66-68, LK 22:56-57, JN 18:17 It was to one maid only. MT 26:71-72 Peter’s second denial is to still another maid. MK 14:69-70 (Apparently) to the same maid. LK 22:58 To a man, not a maid. JN 18:25 To more than one, “they.” MT 26:73-74, MK 14:70-71 Peter’s third denial is to bystanders (two or more). LK 22:59-60 To “another” (one). JN 18:26-27 To one of the servants. MT 26:74 The cock crowed once. MK 14:72 The cock crowed twice. MT 27:3-7 The chief priests bought the field. AC 1:16-19 Judas bought the field. MT 27:5 Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed. AC 1:18 He used the coins to buy the field. MT 27:5 Judas hanged himself. AC 1:18 He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out. MT 27:11, MK 15:2, LK 23:3 When asked if he is King of the Jews, Jesus answers: “You have said so,” (or “Thou sayest”). JN 18:33-34 He answers: “Do you say this of your own accord?” MT 27:11-14 Jesus answers not a single charge at his hearing before Pilate. JN 18:33-37 Jesus answers all charges at his hearing before Pilate. MT 27:20 The chief priests and elders are responsible for persuading the people to ask for the release of Barabbas. MK 15:11 Only the chief priests are responsible. LK 23:18-23 The people ask, apparently having decided for themselves. MT 27:28 Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy). MK 15:17, JN 19:2 A purple robe (a sign of royalty). MT 27:32, MK 15:21, LK 23:26 Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus’ cross. JN 19:17 Jesus carries his own cross with no help from anyone. MT 27:37 The inscription on the cross read: “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.” MK 15:26 “The King of the Jews.” LK 23:38 “This is the King of the Jews.” JN 19:19 “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” MT 27:44 Both of those who are crucified with Jesus taunt him. LK 23:39-42 Only one taunts Jesus, and he is rebuked by the other for doing so. MT 27:46 Jesus asks God, the Father, why he has been forsaken. JN 10:30 Jesus says that he and the Father are one. MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus’ last recorded words are: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” LK 23:46 “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.” JN 19:30 “It is finished.” (Note: Even though both MT and MK represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses “Eli” and MK uses “Eloi.”) MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink. MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it. JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it. MT 27:54 The centurion says: “Truly this was the son of God.” MK 15:39 He says: “Truly this man was the son of God!” LK 23:47 He says: “Truly this man was innocent” (or “righteous”). MT 27:55, MK 15:40, LK 23:49 The women looked on from afar. JN 19:25-26 They were near enough that Jesus could speak to his mother. MT 27:62-66 A guard was placed at the tomb (the day following the burial). MK 15:42- 16:8, LK 23:50-56, JN 19:38-42 (No guard is mentioned. This is important since rumor had it that Jesus’ body was stolen and the Resurrection feigned.) MK 16:1-3, LK 24:1 (There could not have been a guard, as far as the women were concerned, since they were planning to enter the tomb with spices. Though the women were aware of the stone, they were obviously unaware of a guard.) MT 24:9 Even some of the disciples of Jesus will be killed. JN 8:51 If anyone keeps Jesus’ words, he will never see death. HE 9:27 [All] men die once, then judgement follows. MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two). MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three). LK 23:55 – 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and “other women” (at least five). JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one). MT 28:1 It was toward dawn when they arrived. MK 16:2 It was after sunrise. LK 24:1 It was at early dawn. JN 20:1 It was still dark. MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later. MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away. MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb). MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb. LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb. JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb. MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples. MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone. LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest. JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping. MT 28:8-9 Jesus’ first Resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb. LK 24:13-15 It was in the vicinity of Emmaus (seven miles from Jerusalem). JN 20:13-14 It was right at the tomb. MT 28:9 On his first appearance to them, Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and the other Mary hold him by his feet. JN 20:17 On his first appearance to Mary, Jesus forbids her to touch him since he has not yet ascended to the Father. JN 20:27 A week later, although he has not yet ascended to the Father, Jesus tells Thomas to touch him. MT 28:7-10, MT 28:16 Although some doubted, the initial reaction of those that heard the story was one of belief since they followed the revealed instructions. MK 16:11, LK 24:11 The initial reaction was one of disbelief. All doubted. MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven. MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven. LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven. JN 20:14 – 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again. 1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the “twelve” (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul. MT 28:19 Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize. 1CO 1:17 Although he considers himself a disciple of Jesus, Paul says that he has not been sent to baptize. MK 1:2 Jesus quotes a statement that allegedly appears in Isaiah. No such statement appears in Isaiah. (Note: IS 40.3 is seen by some as equivalent to MK 1.2; MA 3.1 is a much better fit, however, given that Jesus is allegedly quoting word for word in MK 1:2.) MK 1:14 Jesus began his ministry after the arrest of John the Baptist. JN 3:22-24 Before the arrest of John the Baptist. MK 1:23-24 A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God. 1JN 4:1-2 Everyone who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. (Note: This would mean that the demon is of God.) MK 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. AC 13:39, CN 2:13, 1JN 1:9 All sins are forgivable. MK 4:11-12, 11:25 Jesus says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain secret to at least some persons. He explains the meanings of the parables only to his disciples. He thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to “babes.” JN 18:20 Jesus says that he always taught openly, never secretly. MK 6:16 Herod was the source of the belief that John had been raised from the dead. LK 9:7 Others were the source. Herod was perplexed by the belief. MK 6:52 The people were so unimpressed with “the Feeding of the Multitude” that they did not even understand the event. JN 6:14-15 They were so impressed that they tried to force Jesus to be their king. MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret. JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum. MK 15:25 It was the third hour when Jesus was crucified. JN 19:14-15 It was after the sixth hour since Jesus was still before Pilate and had not yet been sentenced at that time. MK 16:1-2 The women came to the tomb to anoint the body. JN 19:39-40 The body had already been anointed and wrapped in linen cloth. MK 16:5, LK 24:3 The women actually entered the tomb. JN 20:1-2, 11 They did not. MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem. LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem). AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet. MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.) LK 1:15 John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from before his birth or the birth of Jesus. LK 1:41 Elizabeth had it long before Jesus went away. LK 1:67 So did Zechariah. LK 2:25 So did Simeon. LK 11:13 It is obtained by prayer (presumably at any time). JN 7:39, JN 16:7, AC 1:3-5 The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed. LK 8:12 The Devil causes unbelief. MK 4:11-12 Jesus is responsible for unbelief in at least some cases. 2TH 2:11-12 God is ultimately responsible for unbelief in at least some cases. LK 14:26 No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his parents, wife, children, brothers and sisters. 1JN 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. 1JN 4:20 If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar. LK 18:9-14 Do not boast of your virtue. RO 11:20, 1PE 5:5 Do not be proud. RO 15:17, 2CO 1:12, HE 3:6, 2CO 2:14, 5:12, 11:17 Paul boasts of his faith and says that one should be proud of it. LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper. JN 13:27 It was during the supper. LK 23:43 Jesus promises one of those crucified with him that they will be together, that very day, in Paradise. JN 20:17, AC 1:3 Jesus was not raised until the third day and did not ascend until at least forty days later. LK 23:55-56 The women followed Joseph to the tomb, saw how the body had been laid, then went to prepare spices with which to anoint the body. JN 19:39-40 Joseph brought spices with him (75 or a 100 lbs.) and annointed the body (as the women should have noticed). JN 1:1, 10:30 Jesus and God are one. JN 14:28 God is greater than Jesus. JN 1:1 Jesus was God incarnate. AC 2:22 Jesus was a man approved by God. JN 3:17, 8:15, 12:47 Jesus does not judge. JN 5:22, 5:27-30, 9:39, AC 10:42, 2CO 5:10 Jesus does judge. JN 5:22 God does not judge. RO 2:2-5, 3:19, 2TH 1:5, 1PE 1:17 God does judge. JN 5:24 Believers do not come into judgement. MT 12:36, RO 5:18, 2CO 5:10, HE 9:27, 1PE 1:17, JU 1:14-15, RE 20:12-13 All persons (including believers) come into judgement. JN 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. JN 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. JN 5:38-47 Men have a choice as to whether or not to receive Jesus. JN 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. JN 7:38 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (i.e., the OT). (No such statement is found in the OT.) JN 10:27-29 None of Jesus’ followers will be lost. 1TI 4:1 Some of them will be lost. JN 12:31 The Devil is the ruler (or “prince”) of this world. 1CO 10:26, RE 1:5 Jesus is the ruler of kings–the earth is his. JN 12:32 Jesus implies that all persons will be saved. 1TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 God wants all to be saved. JN 12:40, AC 2:21, 2:39, RO 9:27, 10:13 Some will not be saved. RE 14:1-4 Heaven will be inhabited by 144,000 virgin men (only?). JN 13:36 Peter asks Jesus where he is going. JN 14:5 Thomas does the same. JN 16:5 Jesus says that none of them have asked him where he is going. JN 17:12 Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas. JN 18:9 Jesus has lost none, period. JN 17:12 Mentions a “son of perdition” as appearing in scripture (meaning the OT). (Note: There is no “son of perdition” mentioned in the OT.) JN 18:37 Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth. RO 1:18-20 The truth has always been evident. JN 20:9 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (meaning the OT). (No such statement is found in the OT.) JN 20:22 In his first resurrection appearance before the assembled disciples, Jesus gives them the Holy Spirit. AC 1:3-5, AC 2:1-4 The Holy Spirit was received much later (on Pentecost.) JN 21:25 The world probably could not contain the books if all that Jesus did were to be written. AC 1:1 The author of Acts has already written about all that Jesus began to do. AC 5:19, 12:6-11 The disciples take part in a jailbreak made possible by an angel. AC 5:40-42 The disciples disobey the Council and continue to teach and preach Jesus. RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God. AC 5:29 Obey God, not men. RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God. AC 9:7 Those present at Paul’s conversion heard the voice but saw no one. AC 22:9 They saw a light but did not hear a voice. AC 9:7 Those present at Paul’s conversion stood. AC 26:14 They fell to the ground. AC 9:19-28 Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus, then Jerusalem where he was introduced to the Apostles by Barnabas, and there spent some time with them (going in and out among them). GA 1:15-20 He made the trip three years later, then saw only Peter and James. AC 9:23 The governor attempted to seize Paul. 2CO 11:32 It was the Jews who tried to seize Paul. AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike. RO 9:11-13 God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before their birth. AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike. RO 9:18 God has mercy on whoever he chooses, etc. AC 16:6 The Holy Spirit forbids preaching in Asia. AC 19:8-10 Paul preaches in Asia anyway. AC 20:35 Quotes Jesus as having said: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” (No such statement of Jesus is found elsewhere in the Bible.) RO 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. RO 4:15 Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin). RO 2:13 Doers of the law will be justified. RO 3:20, GA 3:11 They will not be justified. RO 2:15 The law is written on the heart. Conscience teaches right from wrong. 1JN 2:27 Anointing by Jesus teaches right from wrong. RO 4:9 Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. JA 2:21 Abraham was justified by works (which made his faith perfect). RO 10:11 (An alleged OT quote; no such statement in the OT.) RO 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended. CN 2:16 Let no one pass judgement on you in matters of food and drink. 1CO 7:8-9 Widows should not marry (although it is better to marry than burn). 1TI 5:14 Young widows should marry, bear children, rule the household, etc.. 1CO 8:4 There is only one God. 2CO 4:4 Satan is God of this world (therefore there are at least two gods). 1CO 10:33 Paul says that he tries to please men (so they might be saved). GA 1:10 Paul says he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men. 2CO 12:16 Paul says that he does use trickery. 1TH 2:3 Paul says that he does not use trickery. GA 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens. GA 6:5 Bear your own burden. 1TH 2:2 God gave Paul the courage to continue his work. 1TH 2:17-18 Satan hindered Paul. (Note: Who is stronger, Satan or God?) 1TI 1:15 Paul says that he is the foremost of sinners. 1JN 3:8-10 He who commits sin is of the Devil. Children of God do not sin. 1TI 6:20, 2TI 2:14-16, 3:1-7 Do not argue with an unbeliever. 2JN 1:10-11 Anyone who even greets an unbeliever shares his wicked work. CN 4:5-6 Be wise in your behavior with outsiders. Let your talk be with grace, mixed with salt, so that you may be able to give an answer to everyone. 1PE 3:15 Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith. JA 4:5 (Quotes an alleged OT scripture verse not found in the OT.) RE 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then … RE 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass.
  81. thewordofme says:

    The geographical universality of the Deluge may be safely abandoned.
    Neither Sacred Scripture nor universal ecclesiastical tradition, nor again scientific considerations, render it advisable to adhere to the opinion that the Flood covered the whole surface of the earth.
    Maas, A. (1908). Deluge. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved December 15, 2008 from New Advent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04702a.htm

    “If in actual fact Caesar Augustus did not really order a census while Quirinius was governor of Syria – if it turns out there really was only one Gadarene demonaic rather than two – then the entire Bible becomes worthless and every tenet of Christian faith falls flat. If **one single discrepancy emerges, it’s all over. ** This makes Christian faith an easy target for skeptics, and drives believers to unimaginable lengths to ‘defend’ the Bible.” Mark Mattison, “Is the Bible inerrant?,”

  82. thewordofme says:

    “The belief that a walking dead Jewish deity who was his own father although he always existed, commits suicide by cop, although he didn’t really die, in order to give himself permission not to send you to an eternal place of torture that he created for you, but instead to make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood, and telepathically promise him you accept him as your master, so he can cleanse you of an evil force that is present in mankind because a rib-woman and a mud-man were convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Yeah, the whole thing would make Jesus die laughing, if he wasn’t already dead, and assuming he ever existed.”

  83. Justin says:

    Dave and twom.
    The contradictions in the Bible don’t make it less reliable. If you have 1 account of something then in history this would be considered less reliable because of the lack of things that happened. Again the example I gave you twom.
    If there was a fight in a school, everyone sees it defferently, someone would say Bob threw the first punch others would say Jim. According to your logic guys there was never a fight because of the contradictions. In my logic there was a fight the contradictions show it in different ways.

    Twom your last comment on how you thing Christianity is stupid, is stupid.
    Hell was not made for humans but because we disobey God and leave God it is desevering for you. I heard about a Near Death Experience of a woman on how Jesus showed her Hell and how Jesus was crying at how he loves all these people yet they deserve all this because of their ways.

    For Jesus being God in flesh, have you actually read the Bible? In Isaiah chapter 6 he talks about how God’s presence filled the temple with smoke. This shows the Holy Spirit. When Abraham circumcised himself (if God was not real then why do Jews still do this to boys?) the spirit of YAHWEH appeared to him. Yes no man can see God but Jesus was not just God he was God in flesh.

    Twom have you researched the Messianic prophecies? They were defiently written before the time of Jesus, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that. I believe the New Testement writers did not write made up stories about Jesus to make him look like the Messiah because…
    They risked life and death, fasted, gave away all their money and devoted their lives to someone you guys call made up. How in Mark 13 Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem. Mark was written before the destruction of the temple, so either Mark was a prophet or the person who Mark said wrote this was prophet, peace keeper, loving person who was also the Son of God aka Jesus.
    Amen to you guys.

    • Emil says:

      “The contradictions of the Bible don’t make it less reliable…” I had to read that a couple of times to convince myself that this had actually been written. It’s just silly. If we have a dozen accounts of a fight at school that all contradict each other, we don’t really know which is true. Do we? The point that Justin is trying to make with this “argument” is that we’d at least agree that there was a fight. The problem with this is that the evidence from the biblical scholars is that the different books of the Bible were written at different periods of time, and not my eyewitnesses. One analysis that I’ve read suggests that the different versions of the gospels were written to address the political needs of nascent Christianity at the time they were written. Much later, it was decided to collect selected writings into the canon that we know today using the criterium that those writings that were most popular should be included.

      Regarding the issue of prophecies, it was easy for the writers to write the NT so that it would look like the prophecies were being fulfilled, since they could read the OT!

      • the word of me says:

        And we now know that the Gospels were not written by those who’s name is on them, and they were not eyewitnesses to that which they wrote about.

        One thing is going to change a lot of Christianity soon is that we now know there was no Adam and Eve to blame ‘Original Sin’ on. What need is there for Jesus if this is so….and it IS so??

  84. thewordofme says:

    Hi Caleb or Justin,

    The evidence for no God, no Biblical “miracles” is just so overwhelming and the Christian propensity to just ignore said evidence is mind-boggling.

  85. thewordofme says:

    Justin,

    If all those prophecies are fulfilled, how come the Jews still think they are not?
    I need chapter and verse for a few please.

  86. Dave Wyman says:

    Justin wrote: “In my logic there was a fight the contradictions show it in different ways.”

    What happens if some people claim there WAS no fight?

    You’ve admitted inerrancy can creep even into the witnessing of a school fight.

    But your hokey bible claims to be inerrant. Either it’s inerrant or it’s not. Clearly, your story book tells different stories, and so, like the witnesses of an alleged fight at a school, we can’t trust your bible to be truthful.

    At least we know school fights happen (or think we do). That you can personally communicate telepathically with a 2000 year old Jewish zombie because of what’s written in one book? No.

    It’s good for the rest of us to know you have your own kind of logic, Justin, separate from the logic most of employ.

  87. Justin says:

    First Dave.
    In ancient history the writings are judged by the span between the date the event happened and the writting was written. The second way the judge the historical accuracy of ancient writing by how many copies there are.
    Here are two examples of writings considered very historical and 100% accurate.
    Homer’s Illiad. The earliest copy we have of this is 500 years, we have 643 copies.
    Another great Greek Plato. His writings Tetralogies were written between 427 B.C and 347 B.C. The earliest copy we have of this is from 900 A.D. This is over a THOUSAND years, we only have seven copies of this and this is still considered 100% accurate.
    With the New Testement. They were written 5-60 years after Jesus. So already it is a shorter span than the other two. There are 24,000 copies of the New testement writings. So if the New Testement is not historicaly reliable then I guess Homer’s Illiad, Plato’s Tetralogies and basically every other ancient writings should also be deemed unreliable.
    The same could be said the other way. If Homer’s Illiad, Plato’s Tetralogies and basically every other ancient writings are considered historicaly reliable then so the New Testement should also be deemed also.

    Twom.
    ”The evidence for no God, no Biblical “miracles” is just so overwhelming and the Christian propensity to just ignore said evidence is mind-boggling.”
    Yah really what evidence, we can debate your so called evidence later.

    For the Messianic prophecies.
    Here are 10 only 10, though there are many more.
    The Messiah will be born of a Virgin.
    The Messiah will be born in the city of David.
    (aka Bethlehem)
    They will call him Imanuel, Wonderful councelor, Mighty God, Prince of Peace.
    He will start his mission in Gallilie.
    He will be a prophet like Moses.
    The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet.
    The Messiah bones will not be broken. (in Crucfixion the guards would break the person’s feet to kill them quicker, though because Jesus was already whipped and was bleading and losing blood so quickly, he died before his bones were broken.)
    Men will gamble for the Messiah’s clothes.
    He will be hated without a cause.
    The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend.

    These are only 10 prophecies, there are lot’s more.
    The reasons Jews reject Jesus is for three reasons I believe.
    1. It is almost tradition not to believe Jesus is the Messiah.
    2. One prophecy is that there will be world peace when the Messiah comes. Now of course there isn’t world peace yet but if we look at the prophecy about how the Messiah has 2 missions, Jesus has only done 1, so the world peace prophecy is about Jesus’ 2nd coming.
    3. The Jews are by fulfilling the prophecy that his own people will deny him. Jesus was a Jew and Jewish people deny him, fulfilled or not? Don’t need to be a genius to figure that out.

    So see you guys later, hope this helps out.

  88. Dave Wyman says:

    “In ancient history the writings are judged by the span between the date the event happened and the writting was written.”

    Oh, Justin. Your capacity to rationalize is boundless, as boundless as your ability to write something that makes no sense. But then, you’ve already admitted to us that you have your own logic.

    “Homer’s Illiad [sic]. The earliest copy we have of this is 500 years, we have 643 copies.”

    And…? Oh, I see, the Iliad is “very historical and 100% accurate.”

    Now you believe in lot of gods, too: Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Athena, Apollo, etc., because Homer writes about them and their actions, too.

    Can you be any more ridiculous? Well, I’ve only read as far as your reference to Homer, so I’m not going to put it past you to surpass yourself another hilarious comment.

    But because you claim the Iliad is 100% accurate, with it’s various gods and goddesses, you’re going to Hell, because you believe in a mess of false gods, Justin.

    Good luck while you’re roasting away, crying out to Satan that the Iliad, which you can’t even spell correctly, is “100% accurate.”

    “Another great Greek Plato….we only have seven copies of this and this is still considered 100% accurate.”

    No. Only some of what Plato supposedly wrote is considered to be authentic.

    “So if the New Testement is not historicaly reliable then I guess Homer’s Illiad, Plato’s Tetralogies and basically every other ancient writings should also be deemed unreliable.”

    Finally, you’ve made some sense. Correct, historically any ancient writings that can’t be cross-checked are suspect.

    But in your mind, the Illiad [sic] is “100% accurate.”

    Could you offer up a more lame argument for the truthfulness of your bible’s claims?

    Is there any reason I should read anything more your have to write?

    Scanning the rest of your comments, I see the answer is indeed no.

    I’ll pray to Hera and Zeus for you, since you now claim to believe in them.

    You better hope they deal more kindly with you than Jesus will, who’s going to burn you in Hell for claiming to us that the greek gods and goddesses are as real as he is.

  89. Justin says:

    Dave.
    What I meant was that Homer’s Illiad was written by Homer. Have you read the Illiad by any chance, most of it is about Troja, only a bit talks about gods.
    What I mean by 100% accurate is that we are certain Homer wrote it down, even though the earliest copy we have is 500 years later.
    The same applies to Plato.

    If you want something else, then here we go.
    Cesars Galic wars. The earliest copy we have is 1000 YEARS AFTER IT HAPPENED.
    We only have 10 copies, compare this to the New Testement and your owned.

    Did you look at some of the Messianic prophecies I showed you two guys?

  90. Justin says:

    Oh yah at the end of your last comment you said how Jesus would send me to Hell.
    So first of all you are claiming Hell is real, therefore God is real. Second of all you are being judgemental, even though you don’t know me.
    You remind me of an Agnostic. First you say God isn’t real and Jesus never existed. Then you say I will go to Hell for not worshipping them. You say the Bible has contradictions, but you do to!

  91. thewordofme says:

    Justin…I need some chapter and verse numbers of the messianic prophecy’s from you if you would be so kind.

  92. Dave Wyman says:

    “What I meant was that Homer’s Illiad was written by Homer.”

    The Illiad [sic] wasn’t written by Homer. We’re not even sure who created the Iliad; it was a spoken epic poem, Justin.

    You are 100% wrong to believe Homer wrote the Iliad. As you are about most other claims you make. I can’t make up my mind if you’re a troll, showing us just how idiot your religion is.

    “Caesar’s Gallic Wars…We have only ten copies”

    No, Justin. We have Caesar’s own “Commentaries on the Gallic War,” a first person account. That’s far more than you can offer with your holy book, written long after the supposed existence of Jesus.

    And of course, there isn’t any superstitious nonsense in Caesar’s book, as there is with your bible.

    As for your prophesies, aren’t you embarrassed for yourself to present them?

    Let’s just take one: “The Messiah bones will not be broken. ”

    Well, there was no Messiah, only a story about one, written AFTER the fact. This isn’t proof, Justin. This is a fairy tale. You’d have to show us that there was a Messiah and you haven’t done that.

    I’m not surprised, though, given all that you’ve written so far, that you are incapable of recognizing your deficiencies here.

  93. Dave Wyman says:

    “So first of all you are claiming Hell is real, therefore God is real. Second of all you are being judgemental, even though you don’t know me.”

    An you have no ear – nor eye – for sarcasm and humor. Why am I not surprised by this, either?

    By the way, why are you afraid to reveal who you really are, with your name and email address, etc?

    I also note you are unable to use something on a computer as rudimentary as a spell checker. You’re spelling and grammar are atrocious. It’s difficult to take seriously the words of someone who can’t spell.

    If you are so sloppy in the way you write, then it’s not difficult to consider that you’re sloppy in your thinking processes, too.

    In fact, that’s the case. You can’t spell, and you don’t think through your own thoughts.

  94. Justin says:

    Ok guys here are the Messianic prophecies.
    The Messiah will be a desendent from Eve. Fulfilled in Galatians 4:4.
    The Messiah wil be a desndent of Abraham. Fulfilled in Acts 3:25,26.
    The Messiah will be a desendent of Judah. Fulfilled in Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33.

    Now so far these prophecies are very vague.
    Here are the far more convincing ones.

    The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses. Fulfilled in Acts 3:22,23.
    The Messiah will be the Son of God. Fulfilled in Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11 and Luke 3:22.
    He will be raised from the dead. Fulfilled in Matthew 28:5-9, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:4-7, John 20:11-16 and Acts 1:3 and 2:32.
    The crucifixion experience. Fulfilled in Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30.
    The Messiah will be sneered and mocked. Fulfilled in Luke 23:11,35-39.
    He will be pierced through hands and feet. Fulfilled in John 19:18 and 20:19-20, 24-27.
    The Messiah’s bones will not be broken. Fulfilled in John 19:31-33, 36.
    Men will gamble for the Messiah’s clothes. Fulfilled in Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34 and John 19:23,24.
    The Messiah will be accused by false witnesses. Fulfilled in Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57.
    The Messiah will be hated without a cause. Fulfilled in John 15:23-25.
    The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend. Fulfilled in John 13:18-21.
    The Messiah will ascend into Heaven. (at the right hand of God) Fulfilled in Luke 24:51, Acts 1:9;2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32: 7:55-56. (there are more passages what fulfill this prophecy.)
    The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink. Fulfilled in Matthew 27:34, Mark 15:23 and John 19:29-30.
    Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah. Fulfilled in Matthew 2:1-11.
    The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head corner stone”. Fulfilled Matthew 21:42,43 and a numerous number of times.
    The Messiah will be a desendant of David. Fulfilled in Luke 1:32,33.
    The Messiah will be born of a virgin. Fulfilled in Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35.
    The Messiah’s first spiritual work will begin in Galilie. Fulfilled in Matthew 4:12-16.
    The Messiah will make the death hear, blind see etc. Fulfilled in many places again.
    The Messiah will be beaten and mocked and sat upon. Fulfille in Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31.
    The Gospel according to Isaiah. Fulfilled in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
    People will hear and not believe the arm of the LORD. Fulfilled in John 12:37,38.
    The Messiah will be rejected. Fulfilled in Matthew 27:20-25, Mark 15:8-14, Luke 23:18-23 and John 19:14,15.
    The Messiah will be killed. Fulfilled in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
    The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers. Fulfilled in Matthew 26: 62,63 and Matthew 27 :12-14.
    The Messiah will be buried will the rich. Fulfilled numeroues times.
    The Messiah will be crucified with criminals. Fulfilled in Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27, Luke 23:32,33.
    The Messiah is the new and everlasting covenent. Fulfilled in Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20 and Hebrew 8:16.
    The Messiah will be our intercessor. Fulfilled in Hebrews 9:15.
    The Messiah has 2 mission. 1 already done, second mission when he returns.
    The Messiah will come at aspecific time. Fulfilled in Galatians 4:4 and Ephesions 1:10.
    The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Fulfilled in Matthew and Luke.
    The Messiah will enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Fulfille in Matthew 21:1-11.
    The Messiah will be sold for 3o picies of silver. Fulfilled in Matthew 26 and 27.
    The Messiah will be forshaken be his diciples. Fulfilled in Matthew 26:31-36.
    The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority. Fulfilled in Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45.

    Now I am sorry if I haven’t showed where in the Old Testement the prophecy happened. Though if you don’t believe me on any of these check them yourself.
    They were defiently written before Jesus, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove this.
    You would be blind not to realise Jesus fulfilled these prophecies.
    The New Testement writers did not write these around Jesus to make him look like the Messiah.
    For the reason of huge persecution.
    I hope this has helped.

  95. Dave Wyman says:

    God god I don’t believe in, Justin. You are a brainwashed godbot.

    Frankly, I think you’re an addled brained dipsh*t, too. But I’m willing to give you a chance to prove me wrong.

    I need you admit you understand the scenario I’m going to give you in a little bit. If you can’t agree to to that, and if you can’t do that, then there’s nothing more for me to say to you.

    I don’t ask that you agree with the scenario, only that you agree to understand it. And this will entail that you repeat back to me what I say to you.

    You have to repeat it to me so that I know you have at least a minimal understanding of what I say to you, and so that I know you’re actually able to carry on a conversation.

    Got it so far?

    OK – here’s our scenario:

    A book is written and in the book there are lots of predictions said to be carried out one day by someone. Later, another person else writes a book and tells a make-believe story about those predictions coming true. Of course, the predictions themselves never come true, even though the the story in the second book says they did. Both books are just made up stories.

    I want you to repeat that scenario back to me, in your own words, or our conversation comes to an end.

    Now I’m not saying you have to agree with my scenario. But you have to show me you understand it.

    Earlier, you made not just as ass of yourself, but a complete ass of yourself, by claiming everything in the Iliad – which you still can’t spell properly – was 100% accurate. In fact, you’re still a lousy speller and so it’s difficult to take anything you say seriously.

    Also, since you appear here anonymously, no one can take you seriously, either.

    Anyway, after you made a complete ass of yourself, you had to backtrack and admit the epic poem – which you mistakenly thought was a written book – was not 100% accurate.

    You changed your tune to say the stuff about the Greek gods wasn’t true.

    Just at the stuff about the Greek gods in the Iliad isn’t real, Justin, so your Jesus in your bible isn’t real. Just as Zeus and Hera and Apollo didn’t really interact with the human characters in the Iliad – because they aren’t real – Jesus and God and the angeles in the bible didn’t interact with humans, either, because they aren’t real, either.

    You reject the supernatural nonsense in the Iliad. Yet you don’t reject the supernatural nonsense in the bible. You don’t reject the stupid claim that Jesus cast devils from humans and put them into poor pigs, which he then killed by telepathically making them jump off a cliff. You believe Jesus mae a fig tree wither, because he was too stupid to know it wasn’t fig season. You believe dead people rose from their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem after Jesus was crucified.

    You believe all that silly, make believe stuff in the bible, but reject it in the Iliad.

    Why is it, do you think, that you do that? I know why, but I think even if I explained it to you, you would be incapable of understanding.

    Because I don’t think you can hold a thought in your head for very long, I want to make sure you know you need to restate, in your own words, my scenario, above; the scenario about the two books. If you can, have a go at it.

    I’m guessing you can’t do it, so this is probably goodbye. However, I’ll continue to enjoy any attempts to voice your thoughts here, as they are entertainingly vacuous.

    Good luck, Justin.

  96. Caleb says:

    Lol, what a discussion. Seems that Wordofme and I are the only ones not completely attacking each other and our arguments. Haha, hooray for common respect!

    I just have a hard time thinking these people died for a lie…that they wanted so badly for it to be true that they made it up, and died awful gruesome deaths for it. On top of that, they depicted themselves as cowards in the NT, after Jesus’ crucifixion. On top of that, the first testimony to Jesus’ resurrection was made by women!!!! I dunno, might just be me, but if I were to devote my life to spreading a lie and actually intended for it to spread to the whole world, and expected it to be taken seriously; I would not have made myself out to be a coward, after all, people in those days didn’t follow cowards, they followed leaders, kings, people with no fear. Second of all, I wouldn’t base the entire faith around a woman’s testimony! Women had no credibility in those days, they couldn’t testify against anyone and be taken seriously. That’s astonishing that this whole movement spread on the basis on a few women’s testimonies and the testimonies of a group of cowards..lol.

    The whole history thing can go back and forth, my friends. History is just that: HIS story. So who knows for sure. What I do know is that these men suffered dearly for their beliefs, or what you would call “lies”. But we’ll find out very soon. You can see the world around us, my man. “In the last days, there will be rumors of wars, famine, pestilence, and great earthquakes in various places.” Scientists are saying: “the end of the world!”…Christians are saying: “the return of Christ!”. We will find out very soon. But think of it, famine is the worst it’s ever been, but doesn’t have to be. Instead our countries spend money on military expansion, when we could instead feed everyone in the world. Pestilence: look at the new and fatal diseases/epidemics that are going around. It’s awful. Earthquakes: need I say more? The increase in quakes is undeniable, and the magnitudes are greater than they’ve ever been. And war, yes there’s always been war, but we will see a third world war very soon, nuclear expansion…it’s awful.

    I think the OT depicts the end times awesomely. The Book of Daniel is one of my fav’s. King Nebuchadezzar’s dream interpretation by Daniel: The four empires of the world, rise and fallen, supported by the ten-toed base made of iron and clay (European nations). The entire thing collapses and a mountain fills the entire earth (God’s kingdom). The rebirth of Israel as a nation has initiated a chain of events that will lead to the end. You will see. Rev 16: the fourth vial is poured out, power is given unto the sun to scorch men with fire. Could that relate to our diminishing ozone layer? Ultraviolet radiation? In Job 38, God mentions a ‘swaddling band’ around the earth, could this be a reference to the ozone layer?

    I dunno, maybe Christians are just over-exaggerating these things. Maybe I’m a worry case. Maybe man-kind WILL find a way out of this mess that doesn’t involve God. It does bear watching. But Jesus never did anything to hurt anybody, and His teachings are the model of righteousness. Love each other, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That’s the golden rule, my friend. From reading the Bible, at worst, you get an awesome set of morals to live your life by. I believe in true righteousness, that we should all strive for Jesus’ excellence. At least be a good person, and more than likely you’ll be given a second chance, after all, God is very forgiving and loving. Enough discussion, I’m not trying to convince you of anything. There’s lacking proof either way. Science, by definition: systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

    Neither side can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt…period. Either way, you need to put your faith in something. But we will find out very soon enough. Take care all and God Bless!

  97. Justin says:

    Dave.
    Enough with the Greek gods ok.

    With the scenario.
    Well did the guy who made the make believe stories get tortured, killed and had to live in earthly fear?
    Did they make up the stories to promote a religion of good and love or to promote selling the book for money?
    Did the person who made up the book had to give up their sex life, gluttony and other great earthly desires for something who called make believe?
    Did the person who made the book up know about the prophecies in the other book? Did the person study it well enough?

    So you get my point, hopefully because you don’t get anything.

    St Paul, defiently existed. He was defiently a Jew before Jesus appeared to him. So you as an ultra skeptic would say he made it up.
    Well if he made it up then why did he want to spread the Gospel everywhere? Why did he het tortured day after day? For something he made up? You can say all you want him making up the story of Jesus appearing to him doesn’t make any sense.

    Also let’s take St Peter. One of the first diciples of Jesus. Did he make up a man called Jesus, to later get tortured and crucified upside down by the Romans? I defiently wouldn’t make up a story to later get tortured and killed by my own story, I would confess that it is all made up before the first whip lash.

    For the Gospel writers to make up the stories of Jesus to make him look like the Messiah, I think is way to far desperate for someone to say.
    For the reasons I have already given to you Dave.

    When you say about Jesus getting the Devil out of people. Ever heard of an Exorcist?
    The fig tree thing, where is this in the Bible?
    With dead people walking on the streets in Jerusalem, this is in Matthew 28. Plus have you heard of Near Death Expierences? Whether or not you belive their testemonies, they are proof that people can rise from the dead.

    This wasn’t that hard for me at all, try a better challenge next time. OK.

  98. Dave Wyman says:

    Caleb, you are a coward – not to mention a cheat.

    First, you’re a cheat because, while you claim “There’s lacking proof either way” (by the way, that sentence is grammatically incorrect – you’re starting to sound like Justin), you spend gobs of words using science to try to prove your point that your make-believe bible has validity.

    “More disease than ever!”

    “More wars than ever!”

    “The increase in quakes is undeniable, and the magnitudes are greater than they’ve ever been. ”

    But of course, you have no way of knowing if there are more wars or diseases or earthquakes now than before, because you haven’t the smarts to look up and figure out the numbers. You’re just blowing smoke out your proverbial ass, and I’m not referring to the ass Jesus had his disciples steal for his entry into Jerusalem.

    So you’ll try to us use science when it suits your purpose (even though your clueless about the nature of science, an cast it aside when it collides with reality).

    “Jesus never did anything to hurt anybody”

    He steals an ass and a colt. He kills pigs, withers fig trees. And he burns most humans in Hell for doing nothing. 😉 He only let’s them off the hook if they telepathically communicate with him. Even so, just about everyone goes to Hell, for doing nothing – for not believing in a 2,000 year old zombie. You, of course, see burning people for doing nothing as an act of a loving god.

    “I just have a hard time thinking these people died for a lie…that they wanted so badly for it to be true that they made it up, and died awful gruesome deaths for it.”

    You mean “believing,” not “thinking.” Then again, I take it back, you have a hard time thinking.

    But since all the people you refer to are made-up, part of a fairy tale, it’s easy to believe – within the fairy tale – why they act the way they do. It furthers the story.

    The apostles never lived. Nor did Jesus. When you realize that, you can rest your poor brain from trying so desperately to “think.”

    “you get an awesome set of morals”

    Awesome because they have something for everyone.

    Like this:

    Matthew 23:17, 19 – Ye fools and blind.

    and

    Matthew 5:22 – Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    God provides multiple wives:

    2 Sam.12:7-8 – Thus saith the LORD God of Israel … I gave thee … thy master’s wives….

    Or condemns multiple wives.

    Mk.10:11 – Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

    Or he commands murder often enough in the bible, and condemns murder elsewhere in it.

    He’s an awesome dude! Because he awesomely allows at you, Caleb, to do whatever you want. Us non-believers, of course, don’t use the contradictory “moral” system your god has. We know what’s right and wrong without worrying about the judgement of an imaginary god.

    At least your god is really in to oral sex, for there is this lovely metaphor from the Song of Solomon 4-16:

    “blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.”

    Do you follow this godly advice, Caleb? This is one suggestion I think would do you a world of good.

    “That’s astonishing that this whole movement spread on the basis on a few women’s testimonies”

    What’s astonishing is that you doubt your god has the power to do whatever he wants. Like Justin, who claimed the gods and goddesses of the Illiad [sic] are %100 per real, you’re going to Hell for doubting your god’s power.

    Worse, you’re claiming the apostles lied, pretending to be cowards. That’s just another example of your creepy, less-than-all powerful god’s twisting sense of morality: lie about yourself.

    Are you lying, Caleb? To us? To yourself?

    “I dunno, maybe Christians are just over-exaggerating these things. Maybe I’m a worry case. ”

    Again, you doubt.

    You’re going to Hell.

    But while you’re here, on earth, you’re also, like the apostles, a coward. You’re a coward because you hide behind anonymity. Why are you afraid to reveal who your are here? Either here, or privately to me?

    The apostles pretended to be cowards. You actually are one. As you said, people don’t like to follow cowards. So until you reveal yourself here, with at least your name and email address (maybe your facebook page and your twitter info), you’re nothing but a smelly troll, a fraud, and a cheat.

  99. Dave Wyman says:

    With Justin’s last comments, I rest my case. 😉

  100. Caleb Cole says:

    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1586601515

    That make ya feel any better, hater? You are a lost soul…I pray for you. You have to attack everything with such negativity and you have no common respect for your fellow man. Good luck with life my friend, you’re going to need it with that attitude.

    http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/historical.php

    (Although it’s been far more easier to record these quakes lately since new technologies have become available)

    Like I said, you need to put your faith somewhere. I trust in God, you trust in man. Look where man has got us. Much love to you Dave, my heart goes out to you my friend.

  101. Dave Wyman says:

    Caleb, if that’s your facebook page, thanks.

    But it means your relatively young. And so I apologize for coming down on you.

    On the other hand, you deserve it, for thinking you’ve got something to offer to those – with far more experience than you – haven’t already seen.

    I’ll give slight credit for not claiming, as Justin has, that Japanese Kamekaze pilots committed suicide because they believed in the Theory of Evolution. I’ll give you slight credit for not claiming the Illiad [sic] is “100% accurate,” as Justin did. I’ll give you slight credit for apparently trying to follow what I say (even as Justin has failed to do that, which is a basic attribute of have a conversation).

    However, you have come up with the same tired, sophomoric argument in favor of your fairy-tale belief system that all your godbot friends have devised over the centuries.

    When it comes to religion, you are completely unable to think for yourself. You merely parrot what you’ve heard. You have nothing new to bring to the table.

    It’s all been said before, and it’s all lacking. And you have been measured and found wanting in the balance for not being able to think for yourself.

    Instead, you take your cues from what you think your sky daddy tells you.

    You can’t even distinguish right from wrong, as a free-thinking person can do. Instead, as you freely admit, you rely on a book of “awesome” rules for your morality, given to you by a being that would let you burn forever in a hell.

    There are none so blind that they will not see, and that includes you, Caleb. You start with the assumption that your Jesus, who would roast you over a fire like a marshmallow on a skewer, is real. You start with the assumption that your “cowardly” apostles were real.

    Which is the ass backwards way of using logic.

    Hindu gods? No, you don’t believe in them. Greek gods? No, not real. But a god who is his own father, who has himself killed so you don’t have to go to Hell if you communicate your sinfulness to him telepathically? THAT you accept.

    As for your childlike attempt to bring in “evidence” about earthquakes, there’s nothing in your link about the overall numbers of earthquakes. There’s no way to know if, hundreds of years ago, or even in the time of your zombie friend, there were more or less earthquakes than now.

    We don’t know about earthquakes in Australia, or the interior of Africa, or the North or S. American continent long ago, because no one was able to write down such events – no one could write.

    “I trust in God, you trust in man. Look where man has got us.”

    Indeed, let’s look. We have earthquake reinforced buildings – your god didn’t give us that. Your god gave us malaria and polio and small-pox. Man cured those god-designed diseases. Your god couldn’t even give us sex – Adam and Eve had to figure it out, with the help of a talking penis, er, snake.

    Go back and finish your homework. Then start reading works by atheists – Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not A Christian would be a good start, and you can graduate to Christopher Hitchins and Sam Harris.

    As it is now, you’re a kid who can’t think for himself, which you demonstrate over and over and over again.

  102. thewordofme says:

    Justin,

    You write:
    “St Paul, defiently existed. He was defiently a Jew before Jesus appeared to him. So you as an ultra skeptic would say he made it up.
    Well if he made it up then why did he want to spread the Gospel everywhere? Why did he het tortured day after day? For something he made up? You can say all you want him making up the story of Jesus appearing to him doesn’t make any sense.

    Also let’s take St Peter. One of the first diciples of Jesus. Did he make up a man called Jesus, to later get tortured and crucified upside down by the Romans? I defiently wouldn’t make up a story to later get tortured and killed by my own story, I would confess that it is all made up before the first whip lash.

    I am reminded of Jonestown and Waco by those people who die for this nonsense…they were following the same God you are.

    Since you are from UK you may not understand reference…ask me.

  103. Dave Wyman says:

    twom – you are so much more gracious than I am.

  104. thewordofme says:

    Yeah, I’m kinda mellow in my old age. 🙂

  105. Justin says:

    Dave
    “He steals an ass and a colt. He kills pigs, withers fig trees. And he burns most humans in Hell for doing nothing. He only let’s them off the hook if they telepathically communicate with him. Even so, just about everyone goes to Hell, for doing nothing – for not believing in a 2,000 year old zombie. You, of course, see burning people for doing nothing as an act of a loving god.”

    You no nothing about the Bible. Jesus never stole the donkey or colt. He never killed a pig. What is this withering a fig tree?
    You don’t go to Hell for no reason. You go to Hell on the right and just judgement of God.
    Jesus was not a zombie, Jesus didn’t just stay and walk with his dicpiles for 40 days after his death. He appeared to them in and off.
    God is still loving, though he is still fair. God is like a father, loving of their childern but needs to punish them when they do bad.

  106. thewordofme says:

    Oh Justin what are we to do with you?

    Just those few words above and you exposed so much ignorance of the Bible and Christian dogma.

    It will take time grasshopper. 🙂

  107. Justin says:

    The rest Dave you seem to be flying everywhere. No offence.
    With Jonestown, I know what happened.
    Before they were all about to commit suicide. The people were asking for other options, to leave or go to the USSR (correct me if I am wrong)
    Also didn’t they have families, unlike the early saints. Did they get tortured before commiting suicide, I don’t think so.
    Didn’t they all have the same beliefs any way? So they all lived quite happy before Jim Jones in a blink of an eye killed ordered the suicide.

    Anyway, didn’t people in the Soviet Union follow the same beliefs as you?
    Didn’t the people who ended slavery (William Wilburforce, Thomas Clarkson and Abraham Lincoln all had the same beliefs as me?)
    None of them were Atheist. Wilburforce and Clarkson quoted Jesus, maybe Lincoln did also.

    Didn’t Copernicus believe the same God I do, he was the founder of your religion.
    Didn’t also Kepler, Galileo and Newton also believe in the same God as I. Did not they make us smarter, build up science and start the religion you guys follow.

    One last remark.
    In history you can judge someone’s existence on how they have impacted history.
    For example, did King Arthur impact England, only with myths and legends.
    Did Jesus impact Israel, Judea and the whole world? You don’t have to be a genius to figure this out, hopefully you would, you guys don’t figure out much.
    If Jesus never existed then St Paul never had that vision of Jesus, meaning that St Paul would have never started the church or write 13 letters.
    Though the church exists, heck there is one a few streets away from me according to you guys it’s a mirage!
    With the 13 letters, none of them would be in my Bible or anyone else’s Bible, but they are!

    So you guys see, hopefully.

  108. knight says:

    Yet another retarded atheist.

  109. the word of me says:

    Hey, play nice

    Whats your problem?

  110. Indro-Jakarta says:

    Hi Mr. Twom, I think you did a great job enlightening these fundamental Christians. I was raised a Moslem but starting to lose my beliefs. I think I am agnostic now. Love your blog..

  111. Indro-Jakarta says:

    The oldest gospel, the Gospel of Mark, was written in Greek, possibly in Syria, shortly AFTER the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE [Theissen, Gerd and Annette Merz. The historical Jesus: a comprehensive guide. Fortress Press. 1998. translated from German (1996 edition). p. 24-27].
    No wonder there is some account of Jerusalem destruction in the gospel, and it is therefore not a prophecy at all.

    • the word of me says:

      I agree with you here.
      I give you something to think about…Adam and Eve did not exist…what are the repercussions of this fact for the Christian dogma??

  112. the word of me says:

    Yes, this would rule out original sin. In addition to this, there would not be any need for Jesus. So my thoughts here are that IF a man named Jesus existed he would be only a man…not godly in any way.

  113. burrodriver says:

    The Fallacy of the Flood is not a Rational Argument !

    http://wp.me/p1vGsC-6D

    The only reason that The Fallacy of the Flood concept is given any credit is because the current so called, Flood Experts have placed the Traditions of Men like Bishop Usher as Gospel that the BIBLE teaches, refusing to seek out and read the most reliable ancient texts that when translated to current common speech, reflect recent scientific archeological, geological and astrophysical evidence. Therefore, this lack of diligence by Flood Experts makes this discussion some what one sided. Especially when the Pseudo-Intellectuals (atheist) are more than Happy to pounce on the Flood Experts apparent factual errors. So do not lump Noah’s Deluge, me or my books in with those amateurish groups of Flood Experts. Therefore, I don’t debate about such things as: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or how Noah addressed his manure problem. So let us just keep this conversation narrowed to Noah’s Deluge not a Simple Flood caused by rain alone.

    First, the Flood Experts have dated the Deluge of Noah to the wrong Time at which time there was no world wide flood. However, there were two scrolls found in the Qumran caves that are far older than the writing that so called Flood Experts use to date Noah’s time and those scrolls and recent scientific evidence: archeological, geological and astrophysical date Noah’s Deluge to a time when Bootes, Ursa Major, Minor and Polaris, our current North star were setting in the western sky in late Spring and early Summer. Here is the more common of the two texts which is found in all Bibles, from the book of Job and yes Job wrote about Noah’s time and its events in the Qumran cave4 fragments and in his chapter 38 showing that GOD had a better way of dating this Historical events.

    לב  הֲתֹצִיא מַזָּרוֹת בְּעִתּוֹ;    וְעַיִשׁ, עַל-בָּנֶיהָ תַנְחֵם.
    38:32 Canst thou lead forth the constellations in their season? Or canst thou guide Bootes with Ursa Major and Minor?

    Bootes, Ursa Major and Minor are the modern constellation names that you may be more familiar with, not the older King James, Biblical or Hebrew names, all the same, they were only seasonal constellations for a few years, about once every 26,000 years and the last time was over 12,000 years ago. If you Don’t believe that statement? Look it up using the computer star charting programs like Sky Globe. or Starry Nights, (Late May through mid-June c.10,500 BC about sun set looking west, 33 longitude, 30 latitude ) Now that scroll of Job is well over 2,100 years old: so how could a low tech people date Noah’s Deluge to a time when Ursa Major and Minor were below the Northern Horizon Circle to the precise time of the MeltWaterPulse1B, an event that caused sea-levels to suddenly rise by 26.7 feet, then continued to rise for thousands of years at a slower rate. However, just prior to that, sea-levels had been stagnate for a thousand years. Don’t believe that sudden sea-level rise happened at that time? Would you believe an Atheist Then? Then look the entire document up Onset of Post Glacial Evolution Of the Pearl River Delta Delta Conference- Jan. 10-17, 2005, Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam Dr. Yongqiang Zong, abstract below.

    “Study Area the Pearl River Delta situates on the south coast of China, and is connected to a drainage basin. Three main rivers (West, North and East Rivers) drain into the drowned coastal basin and, during the Holocene, created two delta complexes the sandwich the present day. The results show that relative sea-level ( in the Pearl River Delta) reached -25m (82 feet below the current sea-level) by c. 11,000 years BP (Before the Christian Era), possibly after a short period of stagnation. (No change in sea-level for almost 1,000 years) Shortly before 10,000 BP (BCE), relative sea-level rose to c.-17M (55.25 feet below current sea-level a rise of 26.75 feet in less than 100 years), apparently in result to the Melt Water Pulse 1B. The rate of such a relative sea-level is potentially as high as 8mm/a (2.624inches per year) Between 10,000 BP (BCE) and 6,000 BP (BCE), relative sea-level rose steadily for approximately 16m (to within 39 inches of our current sea-level, during that 4,000 years period ), at a rate of 4mm/a.”( 1.4 inches per year).

    Then go to A 17,000 year gacio-eustatic sea-level record: influence of the glacial melting rate on the Younger Dryas event and deep-ocean circulation Hamelin, Bard, E., Montaggioni, Arnold, M., Faure, Cabioch, G. ,Rougerie ,F. 1996 Fairbanks, R.G 1989. NATURE 342,637-642

    My challenge to you is to explain how the Jews of over 2,100 years ago knew about a sudden sea-level rise that happened over 10,000 years before and then star dating the event: a stellar event that only be discovered with computers or centuries of observations and a lot of math and why did it take another 2,100 for Atheist to discover that same FACT, Atheist who promptly change Noah’s Deluge name to the MeltWaterPulse 1B. Please tell me what cause such a immense amount of ice to melt suddenly; when for a thousand years sea-levels had been stagnation? If you think it was caused by Mankind burning of fossil fuels you would be wrong.

    I am not going to debate Noah’s Deluge with you if you just want to turn me into a Straw-Man so that you can argue using rhetoric, to discredit weak points about Noah’s Deluge that I don’t agree with. First you must address the evidence of that World Wide Disaster through a Major Climatic Change that I have presented. However If you really want additional answers about the Troubles of Noah’s Time: Tweet me @lockedgates or go to http://www.youtube.com/user/theQuicksilverkey, or go to Amazon and get my E-book Locked Gates by Howard West; because I may not be back OnLine until Spring 2014, therefore, any messages you leave other than through Twitter, I may not get till Spring 2014. Remember you can Tweet me any time @lockedgates and I will respond. Via existing links in most cases to reinforce my case. Then you can re-post my entire response with the proper citation, however, send No Links to Me Please Via Twitter: I will not be able to access them until I get back OnLine!

  114. the word of me says:

    How do you explain the TOTAL lack of geological evidence for a world-wide flood anytime in the last 20,000,000 years or more. We do know that the melting ice age ice caused a rise in sea levels of 200′ or so around 10,000-8,000 years ago. Still wasn’t enough to even cover Mt. Ararat.

    Seriously my friend, there was never a Noachian flood….never have I seen any evidence that made sense

  115. the word of me says:

    Oh yeah, and then there’s the fact that the Noachian flood has 20 points of similarity to the Gilgamesh epic and was at least 500 +- years before Noah.

    The Jewish God is man made….not reality. Most of the Pentateuch is pure pious fiction.

  116. Jack Hilift says:

    The Bible is pretty detailed about Noah’s flood (covering the highest mountain) . When it happened (about 4380 BCE), is also specific according to James Ussher’s Biblical chronology. If this important Biblical factor can be proven wrong, then I think we can discount the rest of it also. Get with it folks, It is a myth

  117. Anonymous says:

    ” when they were pretty much ruled by church dogma, wiped out the whole indigenous population of New Zealand and New Caledonia. Hunted them down and shot them on the spot…men, women, and children.” I live in New Zealand and this statement is not true. The Maori own their existence to early church missionaries who gave their lives to bring education and health care and peace to warring factions who were decimating themselves.

  118. Pingback: allegorical Genesis - Page 17 - Christian Forums

  119. Charles says:

    The Old Kingdom of Egypt mysteriously vanished or declined about the time of the flood and the country had a “dark” period in which nothing much seems to have happened. Buildings were destroyed, the written language changed after that and the architecture changed as well. In Europe the Bell Beaker culture collapsed and the people dissapeared:

    http://www.livescience.com/28954-ancient-europeans-mysteriously-vanished.html

    The indus valley culture also vanished or declined.

    Around this same time was the “4.2 kilo year event” in which the earth became drier. For example, North Africa used to be much wetter. The Bible says that the earth used to watered by a mist which would explain why the earth became much drier after the flood.

  120. Lynn says:

    *The bible NEVER said the earth was only 7000yrs old. Actually scripture says he created Heaves Earth in the Beginning… and then looked onto a “Dark earth” he formed earth for Adam and our kind of humans. So in all accounts God very well used earth for other life foams, humanoids is another good word to use. Because the Bible is translated from Hebrew words and Hebrew translation makes it more clear the earth was already in existence BEFORE… he set up earth for man kind (Adam).

    * 2
    The Grand Canyon and Egyptian sphinx and Egyptian valley of the kings is proof of water erosion.

    3rd
    The Big Bang theory fails to provide an explanation for ecosystem, food chain, and why we have different languages. The biblical explanation gives a better explanation than anything scientists have give.

    There’s other reasons I’ve come across to believe the Bible was authentic and accurate historical document.

    The 2 million person DNA experiment (discovery channel) scientists proved we ALL trace back to a black tribe in Africa..,where again… the Bible stated our beginnings from the ark landing on the mountains near by. Yes the boat was found. I’m amazed how people can be astonished by pyramids but refuses to believe

    The Bible predicted
    * Media and world wide news access within days in time period that nobody could understand. In Revelations

    * The Bible perdition of a day when the Dead Sea would maintain life and have fresh streams flowing to the body of water.. which has just recently happened this decade. Was unheard of before year 2000’s

    * The Bible predicted technology of numbers and marks on your hand being a means to “sell and trade” (currency$$), in a time when words like micro chip wasn’t ever heard of.

    * The Egyptian Pharaoh in Moses time was Thutmoses time period. Because Moses name was given to him buy the Egyptian family that adopted him. Plus the Jews have found in this century alone thutmoses lll royal symbols baried deep in Israel soil. Thutmoses lll also hide Stepmothers/Royal Aunt/ Pharoh Thutmoses I daughter legacy. (Probably bc she saved Moses)
    Defaced her monuments and ripped her out Egyptian history.

    So yes he could possibly rip Hebrew slaves out. Egyptians have proof of Moses’s plagues in thutmoses l time period. The scribes talk about fire 🔥 in the sky. Yes ancient aliens jump on the UFO theory but if you read scripture, you’ll find too many similarities of thutmoses III’ s life with exudes pharaoh.

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